Have you gone from hardware stage keyboard to an iPad and controller setup for bread and butter piano/keyboard sounds? How did it go?

[CHarrell]

21 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

You're connecting two controllers, right? What are their available MIDI connectors (5-pin or USB)? 

 

Still debating between ES110 or 120, 110 is cheaper, has B-MIDI but only 5-pin physical. 120 has only USB physical. I think the Arturia is both USB and 5-pin, can't remember off the top. I do have the CME B-MIDI adapter, love being able to use that to turn anything anywhere into an iPad controller.

 

Downside of Kawai here is you can only use B-MIDI or USB MIDI separately at a time, no simultaneous use.

 

Are you thinking on the 9th gen, I could B-MIDI the Kawai, USB the Arturia, then just use the headphone jack to output audio?

[AnotherScott]

13 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

Are you thinking on the 9th gen, I could B-MIDI the Kawai, USB the Arturia, then just use the headphone jack to output audio?

 

Either way. Hardwire the Kawai and bluetooth the Arturia, or vice versa (assuming your software recognizes MIDI input from both places). That could be a way to avoid a hub for connecting two controllers to one iPad (regardless of whether that iPad is USB-C or lightning). And then yes, on the lightning model, you'd have the headphone jack for audio out.

 

CME also has devices such that you could connect both controller to the iPad via BT. If you've got the headphone jack, you don't need to connect the lightning port to anything... except power if you want to keep the charger plugged in.

[CHarrell]

2 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Either way. Hardwire the Kawai and bluetooth the Arturia, or vice versa (assuming your software recognizes MIDI input from both places). That could be a way to avoid a hub for connecting two controllers to one iPad (regardless of whether that iPad is USB-C or lightning). And then yes, on the lightning model, you'd have the headphone jack for audio out.

 

CME also has devices such that you could connect both controller to the iPad via BT. If you've got the headphone jack, you don't need to connect the lightning port to anything... except power if you want to keep the charger plugged in.

 

Welllll, actually, now that you mention it, since ES has native B-MIDI, I could just use that connection, then use the adapter for the Arturia, which would then leave that port completely free. Having two simultaneous BMIDI connections wouldn't introduce any noticeable latency, would it?

[Ibarch]

1 hour ago, aronnelson said:

To me the biggest problem with using a computer or iPad is that you lose all of the huge selection of sounds that a hardware synth gives you. Even if you could access all of your presets on the computer or iPad, it's way slower to load those sounds.

 

 

This isn't necessarily true. Whilst not an iPad, I have every scene from my RD-88 replicated on my laptop, using Zenology Pro and Steinberg's VST Live. I can select scenes/songs directly from my keyboard via midi and they load instantly. 

 

My laptop has far more sounds  available because I can setup other instruments like Omnisphere too. VST Live lets me build a full setlist and preload every virtual instrument (currently 30+ songs). It even does continous sound where the current sounds remain whilst the new song is loaded. New songs load instantly when I press a button on the keyboard, just as fast as hardware boards.

 

Similar setups are possible on an iPad too. Whilst the exact cables, need for a separate interface, usb hub may vary, this does not take long to sort out. Once you have the correct setup, like everything else in a band, practice and repetition are the key. Practice till you can do it blindfolded, repeat for every gig. 

 

Once you have done the nesessary prep, using an iPad or laptop live is no more complicated or risky than playing with a 2nd board. Setup time is around the same but your gear is a fraction of the weight and fits in a small bag. 

[CHarrell]

1 minute ago, Ibarch said:

Setup time is around the same but your gear is a fraction of the weight and fits in a small bag. 

 

That's the dream!

[kanefsky]

2 hours ago, stoken6 said:

You would not be able to power the iPad with this configuration. (That's why I keep banging on about the need for audio interfaces that support USB Power Delivery).

 

Yes, you'd either need to use a dongle or a keyboard/stand that uses the Smart Connector if it's necessary to charge and play at the same time (the dongles are very inexpensive but the keyboards/stands are not unfortunately).  The current iPads are all rated for 10 hours of watching video or surfing over Wi-Fi, so conservatively I'd be surprised if you couldn't get at least 3-4 hours of nonstop VST playing before you'd need to have some time to recharge if you ran purely from battery.  Probably significantly longer than that since you don't even need Wi-Fi when you're playing.

 

 

2 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Of course you can get a "USB audio interface" with USB type-A sockets (i.e. a built in USB hub). That removes the 5-pin MIDI requirement. But I haven't found one with USB power delivery.

 

I'm hoping that keyboard makers start using USB-C ports with power delivery instead of USB-B, in addition to supporting both audio and MIDI over USB.  Then you'd really only need one cable, no dongles, and not have to worry about the battery.  The sooner people stop buying that last remaining Lightning iPad model the sooner it will probably happen 

 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

Let's set the record straight on latency. With windows it's an issue.

With a newer iPad, no noticeable latency except maybe on very old apps that haven't been updated. With Bluetooth IDK, I don't have it.

On load up time of different sounds, if you have all your sounds in an AUM session, all you need to do is either mute/unmute or change a midi channel depending on how you set it up. Even PC change is an option. Either way it's near instantaneous. Even if you load a new session it's ready in about 5 seconds.

I find it far easier to set up sounds, effects, splits, volume matching ect in aum than in hardware with push-buttons and a tiny lcd screen.

[Reezekeys]

Re bluetooth midi - is it true that the CME "widi" is a proprietary subset of bluetooth midi with better latency? Hopefully someone with knowledge will enlighten me. I've only tried bluetooth midi via my laptop since I don't have a bluetooth controller or a dongle. That may have added to the latency, but it was noticeable. I would characterize it as "could get by in a pinch" latency, but not something I'd be happy with on a long term basis.

[CHarrell]

13 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Re bluetooth midi - is it true that the CME "widi" is a proprietary subset of bluetooth midi with better latency?

 

That's what their advertising article says. They also say that Apple bottlenecks their Bluetooth input.

 

https://thomasgerbrands.medium.com/the-truth-about-bluetooth-midi-54a3dc633052#:~:text=MIDI only transmits data at,Conversion time is negligible.

 

[kanefsky]

30 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Re bluetooth midi - is it true that the CME "widi" is a proprietary subset of bluetooth midi with better latency?

 

I did a test from my V-Piano where I used a USB connection and a CME WIDI Master connected to the same MacBook (on the MacBook end it was just using the standard built-in Bluetooth MIDI but the piano was sending using a WIDI Master and USB).  I then played 100 notes and measured the time between when each note arrived over USB and via WIDI.  The minimum additional WIDI latency was 2.4ms, the maximum was 5.1ms, and the average was 3.8ms.  Keep in mind that sound only travels about 1 foot per ms through air, so the extra latency is about the same as moving your speakers just a few feet farther away.

 

In a live performance situation I'd be more worried about how reliable any Bluetooth connection is in a room full of people with all sorts of electronic devices potentially causing interference.

 

[Reezekeys]

Sounds good. I set up bluetooth to trigger percussion loops on a second iPhone from my "main" iPhone or iPad - of course latencies of a few extra milliseconds aren't a concern there since I'm not playing an instrument. So far I've done that at one AWB gig - I was a little nervous since there was a theatre full of people with phones, but it worked perfectly.

 

Sounds like the CME setup is a keytarist's dream!

[Barryjam]

Here’s maybe OT question, but one I’ve been struggling with…

 

My use case would be occasional fly gigs.  For drive gigs, my CP88 and Mojo61 are perfect for me.  I’m in a Chicago tribute band, so I need AP, Rhodes, Wurlitzer, FM EP, strings, Synth Pad/Brass, and rock organ, along with the expected splits and layers.  I don’t need pitch bend or modulation.

 

 For fly gigs, I need a single piano action board, ideally 88 keys, where the total weight in a TSA case is UNDER 50 lbs.  (I’d hold my nose and play organ on it).  I’d like it to have most or all of these sounds internally (for backup or instead of computer/IPad sounds).

 

A Gator TSA case is around 29 lbs, and Kawaii 120 is 27 lbs.  Anyone know of a piano action keyboard more like 21 lbs?  Ideally with these sounds?  Failing that, a piano action controller without sounds?

 

it’s gotta be less than 50 lbs in TSA case!

[HammondDave]

3 hours ago, Barryjam said:

Here’s maybe OT question, but one I’ve been struggling with…

 

My use case would be occasional fly gigs.  For drive gigs, my CP88 and Mojo61 are perfect for me.  I’m in a Chicago tribute band, so I need AP, Rhodes, Wurlitzer, FM EP, strings, Synth Pad/Brass, and rock organ, along with the expected splits and layers.  I don’t need pitch bend or modulation.

 

 For fly gigs, I need a single piano action board, ideally 88 keys, where the total weight in a TSA case is UNDER 50 lbs.  (I’d hold my nose and play organ on it).  I’d like it to have most or all of these sounds internally (for backup or instead of computer/IPad sounds).

 

A Gator TSA case is around 29 lbs, and Kawaii 120 is 27 lbs.  Anyone know of a piano action keyboard more like 21 lbs?  Ideally with these sounds?  Failing that, a piano action controller without sounds?

 

it’s gotta be less than 50 lbs in TSA case!

sure… the StudioLogic Piano X. 

[kanefsky]

12 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

sure… the StudioLogic Piano X. 

 

Even the 73-key version of that is way more than 21 lbs, although a 73-key flight case would help offset that a little.

 

The Casio PX-S3100 and PX-S5000 weigh less with 88 keys than the StudioLogic does with 73 keys.  They'll obviously need a longer case but they're also slimmer so that might be a wash if you can find the perfect-sized case or order from one of the custom case companies.

 

When the keyboard is that light I wonder if a full TSA case is even necessary, versus say a 21 lb semi-rigid case and a couple pounds of bubble wrap between the keyboard and case.

 

 

 

 

[stoken6]

9 hours ago, kanefsky said:

keyboard/stand that uses the Smart Connector

An audio interface that uses that would be awesome.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Aynsley Green]

On 8/11/2023 at 11:22 PM, Reezekeys said:

 

I had a laptop already, so purposing it for a music rig cost me an additional $0. I did spend money on software and at one point I had an audio interface but the total was very much less than $5000. I spent time through the years tweaking things when little buggies came up, wouldn't call it "countless" though. It was time well spent as my rig has been very reliable in a professional context for many years now. Sorry to hear your experience with a laptop setup was disappointing, I would certainly be put off if I had invested the time & money you did with those results.

 

Yeah, maybe it works for some, but I've given up on that whole endeavour - even if the laptop thing was reliable, touring is always a curveball.
Case in point - Fly-in gig just last weekend with the Fantom06: Festival gig, 20 minute set-up time - Backline company provided nothing you asked, but it's ok because you brought your Fantom - you can't trust these Backline bastards. 15kgs, guitar sized, sits atop your normal luggage. Problem solved.

 

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

Yeah, maybe it works for some, but I've given up on that whole endeavour - even if the laptop thing was reliable, touring is always a curveball.
Case in point - Fly-in gig just last weekend with the Fantom06: Festival gig, 20 minute set-up time - Backline company provided nothing you asked, but it's ok because you brought your Fantom - you can't trust these Backline bastards. 15kgs, guitar sized, sits atop your normal luggage. Problem solved.

I think the goal should be that you can manage to get through the gig acceptably with whatever backline is supplied. It may be nothing like what you requested/expected, but as long as they provide a keyboard and a power cable, you've got everything else you must have. (Which might include, for example, a dual-polarity sustain pedal, and the necessary cable to connect the keyboard to your laptop/iPad regardless of whether the keyboard has 5-pin or USB MIDI connections. And probably your own backup laptop/i-device as well.) Which means the only issue is if they don't provide any keyboard whatsoever. Or perhaps a keyboard that lacks pitch/mod wheels, and your performance absolutely requires them. In that case, I could see traveling with the smallest/lightest keyboard you could possibly get by with, as emergency backup (and possibly it could serve dual use... e.g.  second board to use in conjunction with that provided by backline, a board to use in your hotel room). For some people, something even lighter than your Fantom-06 could work, even if you wanted something with sounds (say, Yamaha CK61, Casio CT-S500, Yamaha MX49, Korg Microstation, depending on what your emergency board must have). Though it does seem unlikely that the backline would fail to provide anything at all, and while you may be a hero-who-saves-the-day by having your own, it's probably also not your responsibility. And depending on the situation, I suppose it may be better to sit out the gig for something your employer will not hold you responsible for than it would be to manage to get through the gig in a compromised fashion.

[confidence]

On 8/18/2023 at 7:14 AM, kanefsky said:

 

Even the 73-key version of that is way more than 21 lbs, although a 73-key flight case would help offset that a little.

 

73 key Studiologic Numa X is 25.8 lbs, so not "way" more. With a 73-key case could well come in under 50 lbs.

[yannis D]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I think the goal should be that you can manage to get through the gig acceptably with whatever backline is supplied. It may be nothing like what you requested/expected, but as long as they provide a keyboard and a power cable, you've got everything else you must have. (Which might include, for example, a dual-polarity sustain pedal, and the necessary cable to connect the keyboard to your laptop/iPad regardless of whether the keyboard has 5-pin or USB MIDI connections. And probably your own backup laptop/i-device as well.) Which means the only issue is if they don't provide any keyboard whatsoever. Or perhaps a keyboard that lacks pitch/mod wheels, and your performance absolutely requires them. In that case, I could see traveling with the smallest/lightest keyboard you could possibly get by with, as emergency backup (and possibly it could serve dual use... e.g.  second board to use in conjunction with that provided by backline, a board to use in your hotel room). For some people, something even lighter than your Fantom-06 could work, even if you wanted something with sounds (say, Yamaha CK61, Casio CT-S500, Yamaha MX49, Korg Microstation, depending on what your emergency board must have). Though it does seem unlikely that the backline would fail to provide anything at all, and while you may be a hero-who-saves-the-day by having your own, it's probably also not your responsibility. And depending on the situation, I suppose it may be better to sit out the gig for something your employer will not hold you responsible for than it would be to manage to get through the gig in a compromised fashion.

I have been screwed many times by backline companies, so I find the laptop/iPad solution as the only viable. I always carry a small keyboard and I have all my settings/sounds ready. Usually every festival or backliner in the world will provide some kind of a Nord or a Roland piano, this way you can have all bread and butter sounds and some more octaves. These days I find hard even flying my Nord Electro 5, as most of air companies here in Europe will charge you more…

[kanefsky]

1 hour ago, confidence said:

73 key Studiologic Numa X is 25.8 lbs, so not "way" more.

 

It's over 20% more.

 

 

[confidence]

1 hour ago, kanefsky said:

 

It's over 20% more.

 

 

Yep. OK.

 

And two ants weigh 100% more than one ant. So make sure there's no more than one ant on your gear before you try and pick it up! 😀

[kanefsky]

39 minutes ago, confidence said:

Yep. OK.

 

And two ants weigh 100% more than one ant. So make sure there's no more than one ant on your gear before you try and pick it up! 😀

 

The request was for an 88-key keyboard that weighed 21 lbs.  The recommendation was for a keyboard that's 23% heavier and with 20% fewer keys than requested without even mentioning either of those facts or recommending a TSA case that would keep the total weight under the hard limit of 50 lbs.

 

[Reezekeys]

10 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

Yeah, maybe it works for some, but I've given up on that whole endeavour - even if the laptop thing was reliable, touring is always a curveball.
Case in point - Fly-in gig just last weekend with the Fantom06: Festival gig, 20 minute set-up time - Backline company provided nothing you asked, but it's ok because you brought your Fantom - you can't trust these Backline bastards. 15kgs, guitar sized, sits atop your normal luggage. Problem solved.

 

Touring is why I use a laptop (and now an iPhone)! I bring my own controller because our band has UA status and can fly our gear free, but in case of emergencies I can do a gig – with all the sounds I need – using any midi keyboard a backline provides, and these:

 

 

(Forgot to add the small zip-lock bag with CCK, hub, midi interface, charging cube and a few cables).

[Baldwin Funster]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Touring is why I use a laptop (and now an iPhone)! I bring my own controller because our band has UA status and can fly our gear free, but in case of emergencies I can do a gig – with all the sounds I need – using any midi keyboard a backline provides, and these:

 

 

(Forgot to add the small zip-lock bag with CCK, hub, midi interface, charging cube and a few cables).

Those korg first gen nanokontrols are great. I got a few I picked up for around $40 each. It's a b3 cloners dream. It's got 9 sliders, 9 knobs,18 buttons and the transport controls can send CC. I got mine set for leslie fast/slow latched, leslie f/s momentary and brake. You can use even a lowly Yam psr with usb, the nanokontrol,  and as stated above an I pad and a small bag of doodads and you got controll of almost every control on the b3. Percussion, CV, upper or lower manual. I know I'm just repeating the previous post but it deserves to be restated.  The nanok2 isn't as good with 8 sliders boo.

[Aynsley Green]

14 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I think the goal should be that you can manage to get through the gig acceptably with whatever backline is supplied. Though it does seem unlikely that the backline would fail to provide anything at all, and while you may be a hero-who-saves-the-day by having your own, it's probably also not your responsibility. And depending on the situation, I suppose it may be better to sit out the gig for something your employer will not hold you responsible for than it would be to manage to get through the gig in a compromised fashion.

 

In a perfect world, but this happens all the time.
The number of gigs I've showed up to and the Backline 88 is some clapped-out 20 year-old Korg, the sustain pedal is broken, there's no time in the sound-check to quickly cook up the patches you need, and after the show the bandleader says 'hey where was the Synth on Song X tonight?', and then you look like an asshole.

 

I have done the laptop thing on tour - when it worked it was convenient, but flawed. Little things like jumping from one patch to the next very quickly, cranking up volume for solos (harder than you might think), having enough keys for your splits, volumes within patches, dialing up a patch not in the set list, etc. One time my Mainstage file for that show wouldn't open for no good reason, 20 minutes before the show. I was frantically redoing it just as we were about to go on - I got a real bollocking from the tour manager for that. Made me look real professional.

 

Ultimately, you have show up prepared and sound good on every date of the tour, so you get called again. I see not trusting Backline to do their job as part of that equation.  70% of gigs you get what you asked for, great - the Fantom is your Upper - for the other 30% of gigs it saves you from what could be a complete disaster.

 

8 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Touring is why I use a laptop (and now an iPhone)! I bring my own controller because our band has UA status and can fly our gear free, but in case of emergencies I can do a gig – with all the sounds I need – using any midi keyboard a backline provides, and these:

 

 

(Forgot to add the small zip-lock bag with CCK, hub, midi interface, charging cube and a few cables).

 

Ok this is pretty wild, haha. Do you have a picture of it all set up?

 

[Baldwin Funster]

1 hour ago, Aynsley Green said:

 

In a perfect world, but this happens all the time.
The number of gigs I've showed up to and the Backline 88 is some clapped-out 20 year-old Korg, the sustain pedal is broken, there's no time in the sound-check to quickly cook up the patches you need, and after the show the bandleader says 'hey where was the Synth on Song X tonight?', and then you look like an asshole.

 

I have done the laptop thing on tour - when it worked it was convenient, but flawed. Little things like jumping from one patch to the next very quickly, cranking up volume for solos (harder than you might think), having enough keys for your splits, volumes within patches, dialing up a patch not in the set list, etc. One time my Mainstage file for that show wouldn't open for no good reason, 20 minutes before the show. I was frantically redoing it just as we were about to go on - I got a real bollocking from the tour manager for that. Made me look real professional.

 

Ultimately, you have show up prepared and sound good on every date of the tour, so you get called again. I see not trusting Backline to do their job as part of that equation.  70% of gigs you get what you asked for, great - the Fantom is your Upper - for the other 30% of gigs it saves you from what could be a complete disaster.

 

 

Ok this is pretty wild, haha. Do you have a picture of it all set up?

 

That all sounds like a Mainstage problem. I don't see a failure of a laptop running Mainstage as an indictment of an iPad running either AUM or the other app managers I'm unfamiliar with.

As for not having volume for a lead boost, one thing I've learned is never have your midi volume past 50 during soundcheck or line check. You got to keep that secret 77 bits in your pocket cause you know your gonna need it for the last set. Yeah I know, I've forgotten that at times and always regretted it.

[Aynsley Green]

3 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

That all sounds like a Mainstage problem. I don't see a failure of a laptop running Mainstage as an indictment of an iPad running either AUM or the other app managers I'm unfamiliar with.

As for not having volume for a lead boost, one thing I've learned is never have your midi volume past 50 during soundcheck or line check. You got to keep that secret 77 bits in your pocket cause you know your gonna need it for the last set. Yeah I know, I've forgotten that at times and always regretted it.

 

True, I can't speak to the iPad or iPhone rig. I can't say I've seen anyone using it on my side of the pond, most cats still use Mainstage, if they're not using Hardware.
I am intrigued as to how small ReezeKeys has gotten the iPhone rig down to, though!

[Reezekeys]

9 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

Ok this is pretty wild, haha. Do you have a picture of it all set up?

 

That last pic was describing a "what if." I've never used a backlined keyboard-du-jour with my NanoKontrol and iPhone together. Below is a pic of my iPhone with my Korg A800 controller, on an AWB gig last year. No NanoK needed there, since it basically duplicates the functions of the A800's buttons, pads & sliders. I have used the NanoK with a backlined keyboard and my laptop rig a few times.

 

Coincidentally to this discussion, last night I did another AWB gig using the iPhone instead of my laptop. Being cautious, in the past I've had my laptop set up, running and connected to the A800, so if anything happened with the phone I could quickly switch my audio output to the laptop and keep going. Last night I left the laptop in the backpack for the first time. No issues at all, except for me noticing a few tweaks needed to the sounds - the VB3m's percussion was a little loud, and the strings needed a longer attack - stuff like that.

 

Using the phone on a gig was almost an accident. After I got a rig going on my previous iPad (Air 2), I remembered that I had my old iPhone SE 2016 sitting in a drawer. The tiny original SE, one of the last phones with a headphone jack, with a processor one generation newer than what was in my Air 2 - so it cost me nothing but time to see if I could transfer my apps & setup to it, and it worked great.

 

 

[Al Quinn]

That’s a neat setup Rob! If I only I were at peace with the A800 action I’d like have a similar rig ready to go. Clearly, you’re comfortable with the action because I’ve heard you make great music with it!
 

As you may remember I gave it a try but it didn’t work for me: I couldn’t control my touch properly on the inner portion of the keys. Actually that’s been my experience with most midi controller keyboards which leads me back to keyboards with built in sounds, which eliminates the need / advantage for an iOS or Laptop-based gig rig. But unlike you, I don’t tour. 

[CHarrell]

2 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

That last pic was describing a "what if." I've never used a backlined keyboard-du-jour with my NanoKontrol and iPhone together. Below is a pic of my iPhone with my Korg A800 controller, on an AWB gig last year. No NanoK needed there, since it basically duplicates the functions of the A800's buttons, pads & sliders. I have used the NanoK with a backlined keyboard and my laptop rig a few times.

 

Coincidentally to this discussion, last night I did another AWB gig using the iPhone instead of my laptop. Being cautious, in the past I've had my laptop set up, running and connected to the A800, so if anything happened with the phone I could quickly switch my audio output to the laptop and keep going. Last night I left the laptop in the backpack for the first time. No issues at all, except for me noticing a few tweaks needed to the sounds - the VB3m's percussion was a little loud, and the strings needed a longer attack - stuff like that.

 

Using the phone on a gig was almost an accident. After I got a rig going on my previous iPad (Air 2), I remembered that I had my old iPhone SE 2016 sitting in a drawer. The tiny original SE, one of the last phones with a headphone jack, with a processor one generation newer than what was in my Air 2 - so it cost me nothing but time to see if I could transfer my apps & setup to it, and it worked great.

 

 

 

How in the world do you control all that on such a tiny screen though? 😂