61 Key midi controller for Hammond B3 practice

[CrossRhodes]

Greetings all! Starting to get more and more into B3 playing and need to move on from my FP-90X to something more appropriate. Thought I might like the Arturia Keylab but after trying it, it felt "spongy". The Novation LaunchKey felt a little better to me but I have no access to a real B3 to know what might be in the ballpark. I know this is a compromise but I don't have the funds or the space right now to get something like the Crumar.

Any suggestions from those of you who have used a B3 (or clone) as well as a midi controller would be appreciated!

[Lou_NC]

I was in a different situation but my experience may help you make a good decision.  At one time I owned two Hammond XK-3's, one of which had the XLK-3 lower keyboard connected.  That is a dynamite Hammond clone setup, IMHO, but pretty heavy for playing out of the home (I know, I know, it's still a LOT lighter than a real B3!)  I bought a 2nd XK-3 and was looking to add a lower keyboard to that setup as well.  I looked and looked, but trying to find an XLK-3 by itself these days is a needle in a haystack.  So, I tried several different inexpensive 61-key MIDI controllers and was ready to build my own custom cabinet to hold the lower in alignment with the "upper" XK-3.  Truth be told, even though I usually only play LH chords on the lower keyboard, I still could not tolerate the difference in key feel of any of the inexpensive MIDI controllers, compared to the keybed of the XK-3 /XLK-3 setup.  I ended up actually finding a used Hammond SK2, and now my "second" clonewheel setup is a true dual-keyboard Hammond clone.  So I gave up trying to find a MIDI controller keyboard that felt good for playing Hammond style sounds. 

 

The reason for the verbose post is to warn you that I really don't think you'll end up being very happy with the "key feel" of a MIDI controller trying to emulate a Hammond (or other quality clonewheel) keyboard.  Honestly I would even prefer just about any older-generation clonewheel organ to a straight MIDI controller (as long as it has waterfall keys). 

 

Good luck,

Lou 

[stoken6]

5 minutes ago, Lou_NC said:

I gave up trying to find a MIDI controller keyboard that felt good for playing Hammond style sounds. 

This is a real shame. A good-feeling controller with high trigger could be used as a second manual with a clonewheel, alongside weighted boards which have organ capability (Yamaha YC73/88, various Nords, Kurzweil K2700 and the like), or as a controller for software. 

 

Crumar came so close with their Mojo lower manual, but they run some kind of proprietary MIDI from that product (let alone the "phantom" power-over-MIDI that they supply on the unused pins). They sell a separate processing box to translate proprietary-to-normal MIDI (and add the power) but by the time you've connected all that up, it seems too inconvenient to be worthwhile. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[CrossRhodes]

33 minutes ago, Lou_NC said:

I was in a different situation but my experience may help you make a good decision.  At one time I owned two Hammond XK-3's, one of which had the XLK-3 lower keyboard connected.  That is a dynamite Hammond clone setup, IMHO, but pretty heavy for playing out of the home (I know, I know, it's still a LOT lighter than a real B3!)  I bought a 2nd XK-3 and was looking to add a lower keyboard to that setup as well.  I looked and looked, but trying to find an XLK-3 by itself these days is a needle in a haystack.  So, I tried several different inexpensive 61-key MIDI controllers and was ready to build my own custom cabinet to hold the lower in alignment with the "upper" XK-3.  Truth be told, even though I usually only play LH chords on the lower keyboard, I still could not tolerate the difference in key feel of any of the inexpensive MIDI controllers, compared to the keybed of the XK-3 /XLK-3 setup.  I ended up actually finding a used Hammond SK2, and now my "second" clonewheel setup is a true dual-keyboard Hammond clone.  So I gave up trying to find a MIDI controller keyboard that felt good for playing Hammond style sounds. 

 

The reason for the verbose post is to warn you that I really don't think you'll end up being very happy with the "key feel" of a MIDI controller trying to emulate a Hammond (or other quality clonewheel) keyboard.  Honestly I would even prefer just about any older-generation clonewheel organ to a straight MIDI controller (as long as it has waterfall keys). 

 

Good luck,

Lou 

 

Thanks for the feedback Lou. I had a feeling this would be the case. Wish I could spring for the dual manuel Crumar Mojo but just not in the cards right now.

[Baldwin Funster]

You can get an xk1 pretty cheap. Not a xk1c btw. IDK if the midi output is conducive to being a lower manual. Too bad you can't just harvest the keybed and have it rehoused in a minimalist enclosure. I'm sure the cost of that isn't worth it.

I'm stuck using an Arturia essential. The keys feel light and cheap but when hitched to the sound the response is good and fast and I can play what I need to. Other downsides are that arturia put the drawbars on the wrong side in a dis to one hand organ players.

After using the artura if I go to a novation impulse I have, the impulse seems slower, trigger point is lower and quickly changing midi channels is more inconvenient. I haven't tried the Arturia mk2 but at $600 I'm more inclined to spend more to get waterfall keys.

[CEB]

Don’t worry about what a Hammond action feels like. Count your self lucky you aren’t married to that action and locked into having to play expensive hardware for practice.  Use what you have and put that money into your gig hardware or what you really want.  Nothing is going to give you a 9 key contact action …  The finest organs in the world have diving board keys.  Gear is overrated… but that is just me. 

[lightbg]

Thought I might like the Arturia Keylab but after trying it, it felt "spongy".

I've only had my B for 56 years but my KeyLab 61 Mk.II is pretty close feel wise.

 

Jake

[JamPro]

How about getting a Hammond XK3 + XKL3 upper and lower keyboard.  Use the onboard sound (which are good enough for me; ymmv), run it thru a Vent, or use it as a controller for a virtual B3.  You can go one keyboard with drawbars or set up both for form-factor-correct dual Hammond keyboards.

 

I'm thinking I should sell my XK3 + XKL3 and get an XK5.  Make me an offer.

[CrossRhodes]

35 minutes ago, lightbg said:

Thought I might like the Arturia Keylab but after trying it, it felt "spongy".

I've only had my B for 56 years but my KeyLab 61 Mk.II is pretty close feel wise.

 

Jake

 

Good to know. I tried the MK 3 which appears to be half the price of the MK 2. Not sure if that has something to do with the quality of the key bed or not.

[CrossRhodes]

 

16 minutes ago, JamPro said:

How about getting a Hammond XK3 + XKL3 upper and lower keyboard.  Use the onboard sound (which are good enough for me; ymmv), run it thru a Vent, or use it as a controller for a virtual B3.  You can go one keyboard with drawbars or set up both for form-factor-correct dual Hammond keyboards.

 

I'm thinking I should sell my XK3 + XKL3 and get an XK5.  Make me an offer.

Sounds like a nice set up but as stated in my original post, I don’t have the money or the space for something like that right now hence this thread.

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

1 hour ago, CrossRhodes said:

 

Good to know. I tried the MK 3 which appears to be half the price of the MK 2. Not sure if that has something to do with the quality of the key bed or not.

 

I think you are confusing different models. The MK3 is of the Essential line but the MK2 is of the top line. Yes, it is somewhat confusing nomenclature!

[TommyRude]

2 hours ago, lightbg said:

I've only had my B for 56 years but my KeyLab 61 Mk.II is pretty close feel wise.

That's understandable Jake.  You've only had your B for a short stretch.  After you've had it for a more sufficient time period you'll have a better feel.

[CrossRhodes]

2 hours ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 

I think you are confusing different models. The MK3 is of the Essential line but the MK2 is of the top line. Yes, it is somewhat confusing nomenclature!

Good to know, thanks!

[Stokely]

Not sure which controllers would be best, but ironically I have found that cheap, shallow, light actions (like that on my MODX7) actually work well for organ.  It isn't high trigger but the throw is very shallow and the key action is quick (which makes piano playing on it difficult, though I can manage after adjusting).   The more expensive actions, like that on my Kurzweil pc361, IMO don't work as well for organ (everything else, they work better!).

If you do get an older keyboard (say like a Roland vk8 or hammond or VR700 etc) make sure that the drawbars send midi--if that is important to you.  Some send ccs, some send system exclusive messages that might be tough to deal with.

I had a Korg cx3 (v2) that I picked up used years ago that would have made a fine controller, except that it double-triggered WAY too easily.  

[drawback]

My Kronos 61 was an excellent controller for B-3X. And I used an Axiom for awhile; easy to map, 9 faders, expression pedal input and light action. If the OP can find a 61, that might do the trick.

[Stokely]

Those are still fairly expensive...I know because I have been keeping an eye on them (guitar center).  Mostly people are selling the 88s.  For as much money as you'd pay (1800 is the very lowest I've seen) you could get a new Hammond or easily get a Mojo 61.  Obviously they do a ton more, which is why I was looking for one!

[dsteinschneider]

I use a pair of m-audio Axiom 61's 1st gens with a modified On-Stage table stand - I cut down the 2nd tier so the upper keyboard is about as far above the bottom as on a B3. 

[CrossRhodes]

 

On 6/25/2023 at 1:05 PM, lightbg said:

Thought I might like the Arturia Keylab but after trying it, it felt "spongy".

I've only had my B for 56 years but my KeyLab 61 Mk.II is pretty close feel wise.

 

Jake

Finally had a chance to try the MKII and it was much nicer than the essential I had tried. The store also had the Nord Electro 6D which felt quite a bit different than the MKII. I'm not going to purchase the Nord but I was curious which one of these feels closer to the B3 as I still haven't found anywhere to try out a B3 or good clone so still not really sure what they're supposed to feel like!

[ABECK]

I have the Keylab Essential Mk3 61.  The action feels a bit better than I thought, given the price tag.  I have it mapped to VB3m on my iPad, which makes for a nice rig.  BUT -  it lacks a dedicated expression pedal input, which is kind of important for Hammond playing.  (I can steal an expression pedal input on my K2700 via MIDI, so that is a nice workaround for me).    The more expensive (I.E. Non Essential line) Mk2 keyboards are better quality and have an expression jack.  I will say, it was a breeze to map the controllers to every function on VB3m, so kudos to Arturia.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

I haven’t taken the plunge,  but I’ve considered the Nektar Panorama T6 for this job on several occasions. 
 

https://nektartech.com/panorama-t4-t6-controller/

[Brad Kaenel]

The fellas at Keyboard Partner with the HX-3 clone gave high praise to the M-Audio Code 61 controller:

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Code61BK--m-audio-code-61-keyboard-controller

 

It's a few years old, and now discontinued, but still findable on Reverb and eBay for a couple of bills.  It's not true waterfall keys, but the lip is very small, similar to what Korg did on their Vox Continental.

 

 

[Delaware Dave]

1 hour ago, Brad Kaenel said:

The fellas at Keyboard Partner with the HX-3 clone gave high praise to the M-Audio Code 61 controller:

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Code61BK--m-audio-code-61-keyboard-controller

 

It's a few years old, and now discontinued, but still findable on Reverb and eBay for a couple of bills.  It's not true waterfall keys, but the lip is very small, similar to what Korg did on their Vox Continental.

 

 

been using the code 61 for two years now.  works great, also has the expression input that most lack as well as both usb and old fashion 5 pin in/out. decent feeling keybed as well, not waterfall but for me not an issue.

[kanefsky]

It's got more than 61 keys and it's not cheap compared to typical unweighted MIDI controllers, but what about the Studiologic Numa Compact 2x?

 

It's got some built-in sounds (including modeled organ) but looks like it's also designed to work well as MIDI controller.  It's got waterfall keys, the right number of drawbars and other organ-specific controls, etc.

[drawback]

Not waterfall keys (TP/9 PIANO semi-weighted), but everything else ticks the boxes. Lots of discussion on this forum when it arrived 👍

[kanefsky]

1 hour ago, drawback said:

Not waterfall keys (TP/9 PIANO semi-weighted), but everything else ticks the boxes. Lots of discussion on this forum when it arrived 👍

 

Oops, my mistake.  I could have sworn they were waterfall keys when I had looked at closeup pictures earlier, but on second look they do seem to have a piano profile.

[NewImprov]

On 6/29/2023 at 6:15 PM, dsteinschneider said:

I use a pair of m-audio Axiom 61's 1st gens with a modified On-Stage table stand - I cut down the 2nd tier so the upper keyboard is about as far above the bottom as on a B3. 

I'll second the suggestion for the Axiom 61, I used to run a setup with an 88-key bottom controller, Hammond XK-1 on the middle tier, and Axiom 61 on top, on tunes where I needed dual manual Hammond, I used the XK for the bottom manual, and the Axiom for the top. The Axiom keys really felt like Hammond's despite having a very small lip on front.

[Baldwin Funster]

I had an m audio axiom 2nd Gen I think. I found the downward travel shallow and hitting bottom was a hard landing. I found my hands hurt after a night of using those.

[CrossRhodes]

Ended up scoring a great deal on an Arturia MKII which I picked up last night. Loving it so far and the tight integration with the Arturia plug ins is a great bonus. I doubt I will find another one at such a great price so I will definitely be looking into some of the more affordable recommendations given in this thread for the second controller. Thanks again to all for helping steer me in the right direction. I’ve got my first online lesson with Tony Monaco today and psyched to get started down this new musical journey. Hoping for a Mojo Dual some day down the road when I can afford it but this will do the trick for now!

[Outkaster]

If possible get on a real console at some point, at least to get the experience.

[Brad Kaenel]

Excellent out-of-the-box experience with this gear:

 

IPad Mini 6

Anker USB-C multiport (power, USB-A, 1/8" stereo out jack)

Arturia KeyLab MkII 61

VB3m app

Genuine Sounds app

 

Connected as in photo:

Anker multiport to iPad USB-C jack

USB-C charging cable to AC power

Standard USB-A-B cable from keyboard to multiport

 

Both power and MIDI over the single USB cable

Both iPad and keyboard powered by single AC charging cable

Both VB3m and GS apps playable simultaneously without discernible latency or audio artifacts

 

This is a very cool rig. Portable in a backpack, lightweight, nice keybed, minimum of cables.  Plug into the headphone jack on the Anker multiport for external amplification.

 

Have to read the KeyLab manual to learn a clever way to MIDI-map the bass and lower drawbars; maybe there's a switch that can make the sliders send two different sets of CC's.  Or I guess I could use the knobs for the lower drawbars...

 

Liking this a whole lot for just the initial plug-n-play.