Hammond SKPro non-organ evaluation

[Delaware Dave]

I would like to hear from the SKPro owners regarding the non-organ/leslie voice elements on this model, particularly how well it sounds for acoustic piano, EP's, Clavinet, strings, brass, sax, poly synth and pads. The strength of the k/b is obviously the hammond/leslie; I'm trying to discern whether this keyboard can be an all-in-one and be used to cover all the instruments I currently cover my with my Kurzweil PC3, many of those sounds that I listed above.  Also, how well does the SKPro function as a midi controller if I wanted to use it to control my Gemini module, button and drawbar assignments, can they be easily manipulated to control different CC's?

[Stokely]

I've not had mine for all that long, and mostly had it set up on organ while my Modx did everything else.  I say "mostly", I did use some rhodes, horns, strings, a pad and a mono synth on songs.  I have all those sounds on a couple "combis" so they are quite quick to access.  I have a love-hate relationship with the combis.  I find it weird that some settings (like overdrive controlled from mod wheel) are on the combi level, while others are in the individual sections.

My sk pro is kind of in limbo right now as I picked up fellow forumite cphollis' nord stage 3 compact.  Overall I like the keyboard, feels great, good build quality.   The main immediate upgrade for me with the NS3  is that the synths are easier to control and program and I happen to love the sound of the A1 synth.  I also think the NS3 sounds at least a bit better in all regards except for organ; the NS3 organ sounds good enough, I like it a fair bit better than that on my pc3/Forte for example (I don't use my Forte right now mainly because I dislike programming on it a lot).  If I did a bit more organ-heavy songs I'd happily pair the NS3 with sk pro, and it's still on the table, especially with my Modx starting to have a couple issues unfortunately.  The key action on the sk pro I like better than the NS3 honestly but it's not night and day.   

Keeping in mind of course I'm not an organist, haven't played a real b3 in decades, and my band plays rock.  So being a true b3 emulation isn't really something I can evaluate, I just listen for what sounds good in a band context.  I used to like my VR700 in a band but I reckon that wouldn't be a jazz player's favorite or be sought after by someone who plays in an organ-heavy band. Same with kb3 on Kurzweil.

To get back to your question...while I haven't truly put the "other" sounds to the test, I think they sound pretty good.  Surprisingly so, honestly, I wasn't expecting much.  The acoustic piano is probably my least favorite other sound but I haven't used it as much as the others.  In particular I'd need to test it in mono to see if it falls apart like many do, or preserves the sound it has--if the latter, that counts for a lot.  Not much good in having a glorious stereo piano that gets phasey and boxy in mono.   Whether I keep the sk pro or not probably depends on whether I feel comfy doing most gigs with one board (Ns3), and/or if I really want a board better at playing piano (weighted or premium synth) instead of two waterfall actions.   If just making the decision based on only sound quality, I'd happily pair it up with the ns3 and go, all my bases would be more than covered.

As far as midi controller, I didn't actually use it as such but I did check the manual before buying--it looks to me as if simple ccs are sent out by the drawbars, that was the main thing I wanted it to do in case I ever controlled software organs at home.

[Adan]

As you probably know, there's a thread here on the SKPro with lots of opinions on the extra sounds.   But in short, in a classic rock band I would be ok using the SKPro for all my sounds.  Acoustic piano is probably the weakest link, but that shouldn't matter for Ophelia or Don't Do Me Like That.

[BenWaB3]

I've expressed general displeasure with the extra voices on the Pro in a couple of other threads. I had ended up using an iPad for electric and acoustic pianos sounds. I also thought the clav in the SK-1 was much better and the Rhodes & Wurli sounds on the Sk-1 more usable. The Pro does have a pretty good amount of programmability for synth sounds though (talking about the polyphonic ones in the other instruments section - I didn't really dive into the separate mono synth section that much.) I have the Gemini module also but found that between it & the Pro the velocity curves can be somewhat wonky, mostly the fault of the Pro, I believe. If the Gemini had the adjustable velocity curves that came out in the piano app from GSi it would probably be a match made in heaven. Of course, this is all just my opinion, and we know what they say about opinions.

[Al Quinn]

I played the APs and EPs at a rehearsal and at a gig. I disliked both and no longer use them. Love the organ and mono synth.

[niacin]

For me the acoustic pianos are fine for pop, rock or blues, the Rhodes is ok but I wouldn't use it for soloing, I like the Wurli well enough, not Gemini/Mojo/SV1 quality but better than most, orchestral strings are ok but not Kurz quality, though I use the synth strings quite a bit and they work really well, poly synths are a limited palette but can be extensively edited.  As mentioned above the clav is a step backwards from that in the SK1/2, good but not great.  I have played the Gemini Rhodes and Wurli from the SKpro and sorry to say it's not very satisfying, very similar keybed (TP8O with lighter springs) to the Mojo61 which plays superbly, but the velocity curves in the SKpro just don't work too well.  My 2c.

[AnotherScott]

2 minutes ago, niacin said:

For me the acoustic pianos are fine for pop, rock or blues, the Rhodes is ok but I wouldn't use it for soloing, I like the Wurli well enough, not Gemini/Mojo/SV1 quality but better than most, strings are ok but not Kurz quality, though I use the synth strings quite a bit and they work really well, poly synths are a limited palette but can be extensively edited.  As mentioned above the clav is a step backwards from that in the SK1/2, good but not Gemini good.  I have played my Gemini Rhodes and Wurli from the SKpro and it's not great, very similar keybed (TP8O with lighter springs) to the Mojo61 which plays great, but the velocity curves in the SKpro just don't work too well.  My 2c.

The velocity curves definitely need tweaking to get the best out of some of those sounds (like the EPs), and the settings you need have to be done per patch, not in a global adjustment. Even for the internal EPs. I've never used it with external sounds, so haven't looked into what adjustments might be available there.

[M_G]

iMHO the non-organ sounds in the SKX Pro are pretty useless.

I use a Motof Rack ES via the lower manual for some piano and synth stuff.

Masterkey possibilities are pretty nice and easy to set up.

 

[Stokely]

Niacin mentioned the key action was close to the Mojo 61.  My buddy brought his new Mojo 61 over to compare and in a blind test I don't think I could have told the difference based on key action.   Both are  lighter than the nord stage 3 compact I'm using, which I'm getting used to the more I play it.   The organ sounds were very different which was interesting--both good, but different   

[Outkaster]

Awesome keyboard. Along with the YC88 the best rig I have had.

[MathOfInsects]

I found the non-organ sounds impractical when I played the board at NAMM. To be honest there were even aspects of the organ I found unusual, given the "s" in the product name--some menus I wouldn't have expected to have to dive down in real time, possibly including C/V, though it's been a few months now so maybe that's not the one I'm thinking of.

It's definitely got more character than the Nord out of the gate as an organ, but I'm not sure the gulf is as wide as it used to be, and the strength of the NS as a one-board solution more than closes that gap, at least for me. Pity, since I went in really wanting to fall in love, and all I got was this stupid t-shirt.

[Mighty Motif Max]

I feel pretty qualified to answer this, having just wrapped up several gigs with the SKpro 73 as the main keyboard. The pianos aren't the best but I've heard far worse as well - I mainly use the Yamaha sample. What's weird is the interaction between the keybed and the non-organ patches - it almost feels like the throw is deeper than it needs to be and you don't get the solid bottoming out that you would with a hammer action obviously. It's also a light action of course, so that's part of the equation with the pianos. I will say that the pianos hold up better in mono than many other keyboards I have - but they're not starting in as good of quality to begin with.

 

The EP's are not amazing by default - however, it depends on the sound one likes. I do like the wurlis - the rhodes don't have much bell tone at all and remind me of the PC3 rhodes. However, you can do editing and so forth. I don't mind the user interface - it's gotten a lot of complaints but for me it works pretty logically. Clavinet isn't amazing but again it's usable.

 

The poly synth, pads, strings, etc vary in quality - generally there isn't a lot of variety in presets, especially pads (and for the way I like my pads, they aren't great). The patches really seem to have been made to cover general-purpose '70s, '80s, and some '90s tones - think Fantasia on the D-50 and such. The brass isn't good, woodwinds are pretty decent - saxophones are not bad at all IMO. I actually do like the strings overall - they work great in a band mix and sound better than my Krome did.

 

You can do a lot of editing internally.

 

It's my backup board for worship gigs as I can get a lot of mileage from the Stadium Grand patch layered with a pad and a B3. Would I want to do, say, a pop gig with only that board? I did actually once - it's not a keyboard where you can easily nail patches; you are more getting into the general territory of certain sounds instead (synth brass is a good example of this). Is it usable as a main board? Yes, if you don't need a ton of flexibility and top-notch sounds across the board, or much for synths (other than mono synths). I own a PC3 as well and I'd say the orchestral sounds are where you would really notice a downgrade. Otherwise, it's in the same territory or better in most categories.

[JMcS]

A lot of the weaknesses in instrument sounds mentioned above seem to be the result of a low velocity value generated by the key strike. It is hard to generate a high velocity value on the Hammond keyboards so attack harmonics etc. are often missing or dull. This goes all the way back to the Extra Voices in the XK-3/c. Hammond added the Velocity Offset parameter to correct for this in an early update to the SK-1 and it continues in all models since. In the SKX-Pro it is on Pg. 93 #8. A set value can be added to / subtracted from the velocity value generated by the musician to dial in the desired keystrike velocity needed to get a value of 127. The Velocity Curve may help some but if the hardest you hit the key is less than the selected curve can boost the value you still don't get the attack harmonics. Also, the less hard the key is struck the less its velocity value gets boosted. 

[Al Quinn]

It would great if someone who likes their SK Pro APs and/or EPs posted a recording so we can hear what you’re hearing and liking.

[MathOfInsects]

At least the SK-Pro has a preset on the front panel for harpsichord. I would hate to think what would have happened if they'd left that off. 

[Stokely]

16 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

It would great if someone who likes their SK Pro APs and/or EPs posted a recording so we can hear what you’re hearing and liking.

That might be a fun thing.  I'm actually busy at work presently (been slow lately) so I can't do it right now.  Might be cool to have a software library (I mainly use Scarbee ep88s or whatever it's called), my nord and the SK all playing the same thing (though of course the same velocities can sound different on different instruments).  And if you have a cool midi file that would put it through its paces I'd be glad to use it.  I'm probably not as good of a player as many here especially if you play jazz or classical and want to know how this thing works!

[Outkaster]

The organ on the  SK Pro is top notch. I get a lot of front of house guys commenting on it in many different parts of the state I am playing.

[Stokely]

Heh, got Logic working (finally) triggering an external keyboard, whose outputs are feeding a stereo audio track.  Pretty crazy that this was once central to my studio life, but I hadn't done it in probably 20 years (been using software synths in the box with DAWs).   

I'll upload something after work, probably Scarbee vs Nord vs Sk pro.  Again if anyone has a cool midi file attach it and I'll use that instead of my plinkering.

[Stokely]

Ok, unscientific so no blind test, but there are "control groups"    Just a little riff recorded as midi then played from 3 sources:  Scarbee ep88s internal instrument; Nord stage nefertiti (large, iirc); and the sk pro's first-in-list rhodes patch.   None of these have much overdrive and I removed all reverb.  The reverb you hear is tai chi lite, a plugin that I put on a send used by all 3 tracks.  I tried my best to volume match but there were some timbre differences and some different responses to velocity.  Watching the Logic meters, I aimed for the same range but during the last bit where I gradually played harder, they had different responses.

It's very possible that playing from the Nord, or from the sk pro and hearing the internal sounds, the performance would be somewhat different.  I played this from a pc361.  The sk pro in particular is responding to the recorded velocities like I'm playing harder than I was, so I reckon playing this from the sk pro it would be more toned down.

Scarbee:

 

 

Nord:

 

 

 

Skpro:

 

 

 

 

 

[niacin]

Thanks for doing that.  The Skpro and Nord sound surprisingly similar until you dig in in the second half of that clip.  I own an SKpro and briefly owned an Electro 5, and I found the Nord Rhodes far more responsive and dynamic, but I haven't tried playing the SKpro Rhodes sound from another keyboard.  I'm not at the keyboard now, but iirc the Skpro Rhodes is just two layers with a really obvious split point so I'm not sure how much difference rescaling the midi would really make, it's a much smaller sample than the Nefertiti.

[BenWaB3]

Thanks also for posting the clips. In the past I've complained about the Rhodes in the SKPro & wondered if I was being too harsh since some other people didn't mind it as much. Now after listening to these, I can say "The prosecution rests, Your Honor". Vindication has been achieved 🙂

[Stokely]

Well to be fair I think it may sound more natural if played from its own keyboard.  It pretty obviously didn't respond to the velocities like the other two.  

That said, it sorta has a wurli quality to it for better or worse, or at least a different tone than the other two.   Playing live it hasn't bothered me, but I don't feature rhodes.

I'd like to do something similar with piano, maybe with a good dynamic midi file if I can find one.

[BenWaB3]

I'm not too sure if playing it from its own keyboard would help much or not. Even pushing Neo-Soul Studio from the SKPro gets some weird touch/feel issues going. Scaling back the velocity curve on the SK helped with that a lot though. I didn't realize until fairly recently, though, that the internal Rhodes only had the 2 layers, as Niacin pointed out, and the crossfade between them does leave much to be desired. Speaking of the Wurli's, I was able to coax a fairly decent Wurli out of it. One thing I was too dumb to think about on my own, but Another Scott suggested, was doing a Rhodes in both extra voice slots and having on be just pure delay effect. Layering two of them together got some strange type of "out of phase' tone and since autopan and delay are in the same effects slot you had to program one with autopan and one with delay. With Scott's suggestion it sounded much better with just the delay and no actual original signal coming out of one of the sections. 

[Stokely]

Ok piano time!  forgive the sloppy playing.  All the midi files I could find were either classical or had very little dynamics.  So instead we get my haphazard from-memory playing of bits from Sting's shape of my heart, and Hold the line....

Volumes aren't especially matched so you may want to try to do that yourself if comparing.  All had onboard verb turned off, and same amount of tai chi lite applied.

 

First up, onboard instrument Hammersmith Pro:  

 

Nord white grand:  

 

SK pro "Grand Piano Y-CF". 

 

My own 2c, listening back--the Hammersmith has more dynamics overall, or at least it takes more effort for it to sound "pushed".  It also has more room sound on it, not really reverb but I think the default mics are more distanced.   I was using my non-weighted pc361 and playing the Hammersmith to record with, so that probably makes a difference.  Both the Nord and skpro start sounding almost compressed when the velocities get higher, but as far as I know I don't have compression on those patches.  The Nord is only using the "L" and not the "XL" sample set fwiw.  I think I might revise my thoughts on the sk pro a bit--I think the piano sounds better than the rhodes.  I just hadn't played it much from that waterfall keybed.

[niacin]

fwiw the SKpro pianos - I tend to use the Stadium Grand - sum to mono better than most.

 

[Stokely]

Those of us that have to go mono at least some of time, that counts for a lot.  That is the main reason I'm using the White Grand on the Nord vs any of the others it offers.  I tested some of my software pianos in mono, thinking that if I found one that worked very well I'd consider mainstage, but if anything they fared worse than the keyboards.   My buddy claims the Roland vpiano works quite well in mono but I haven't had a chance to test it (the Fantom 0 I tried doesn't have the vpiano.)   I've started playing less piano overall at gigs and this is the main reason, they just sound like varying levels of crap in mono and other sounds generally don't--the other offenders are generally synth sounds that rely on stereo effects.