iPad as a serious musical instrument

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, Ibarch said:

An ipad would be a great setup except for one thing - ipadOS. 

[............]

Imagine a full workstation in a tablet format which runs all my audio software. Us Window users don't have to imagine. Welcome to Microsoft Surface Pro.

 

A Surface Pro would be a great setup except for one thing:

 

 

VS...

 

Yes, sadly, the $$ part. That's actually the cheapest current SP I saw; the one with an i7 and 32GB of ram is almost $2400. I got my iPad 9G on a Best Buy special that looks to be no longer in effect, paying $260 for it this past December.

 

I have no doubt the SP is a spectacular machine for music production - then again it should be great at most kinds of computing one would do with a laptop, which is beyond the scope of any iPad (at the moment). That's a given. Better than an iPad? Of course.

 

I've never bought a laptop specifically to make music with – can't afford to! But $260 to have a machine fully capable of handling my most demanding virtual instrument setup along with chart reading? That was pretty much a no-brainer. Of course the fact I'm already in the Apple ecosystem is a plus - I've had many a chart airdropped to me on gigs.

 

If I already had a Surface Pro and was using it for my day-to-day computing, then decided to add what was needed to make it a music machine, that would probably be a no-brainer as well; I would be on that machine for sure. For those already in the Mac world it might be a tougher sell though.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

6 minutes ago, counterpoint said:

Using a Surface Pro with Cantabile running mainly Arturia VST's.  Cantabile can do unbelievable things...but I set it up extremely simply with one "song" containing all the VST's I need for a set list loaded into that one song with different MIDI channels assigned from my YC 61 depending on the Live Set.  It's totally seamless once it's set up (which takes some work and creativity...). 

 

Right now, I'm not using the YC USB Audio, but instead I'm using a digital channel on the Presonus 24R (the band's mixer) for sounds from the Surface Pro. Have to do this because we are playing "Hungry Like the Wolf" and I have the popcorn synth arpeggio loaded into Cantabile as an MP3 together with an attached click track and starting cues routed to the drummer's in-ears. Cantabile allows you to sort out that kind of multi-channel routing.  You can't use the YC USB audio for that because it's only two channels. Also, I'm routing from the five pin MIDI out of the YC to the Surface Pro with a cord that converts the five pin to USB otherwise you get the "digital hum" from having two USB Audio sources hooked up to the same sound source which is what happened when I tried using the USB Audio/MIDI out.  Would be nice if there was a way to disable the USB Audio part of that connection on the YC. 

 

Also now have a Numa X and have been experimenting adding an IPad to that.  I have an IPad Air with USB C so the connection couldn't be easier.  It works great with absolutely no detectable latency to my ears using Korg Module.  Mainly using the IPad as a mixing console via "Universal Control" for the 24R though...(and the Surface Pro too even while it's running Cantabile)...I have everything I need and far beyond without adding the IPad as a sound source.  Lots of fun stuff to play around with and figure how many different ways it can be assembled...although it can be frustrating at times too.  Maybe I should dump it all and get a Nord Stage 4...🤑

Can you share which edition of the Surface Pro you are using and specs?  What tweaks did you use if any for Windows and this hardware for low latency audio? 

[Ibarch]

9 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 Apple has always been about things working "right." A Surface user likely accepts that some apps aren't going to work so well, maybe they'll need to use a stylus, maybe things won't scale the way they want to the screen size, or maybe they'll just be prompted to choose a different app... That isn't what Apple wants to sell, nor what they think their customer wants to buy. It should feel like something that is working as designed, not like you're always trying to push square pegs through round holes, and in a nutshell, that's arguably the difference between the two environments. (It's also why there is no Surface Pro equivalent to the smaller iPads... the environment doesn't scale well to smaller sizes.)

 

Sorry, I completely disagree with this typical fan boy defence. 

Apple have a history of not doing it right with iPad. Multiple times over. From their borked attempts at introducing multitasking, the dreadful access to the file system that gradually improved. The shockingly bad mouse cursor support which was just an accessibility feature till it wasn't. And let's not talk about forcing iOS apps to run on MacOs without even a touch screen.

 

You weight comments are ill-informed. You should perhaps discover the surface Go3 as a smaller, lighter fully functional pc/tablet  that I can also run Keyscape and Ableton on.

 

Surface users have the same issues with non scaling plugins that MacOs users have with 4k screens. Yes, not every 10 year old plugins is perfect for touch but at least it is available and runs. If I choose to use that, I accept the trade offs and use a wireless mouse. Fancy that, a wireless mouse working with a tablet. What a hardship. 

 

For every time someone gives Apple a free pass and swallows the marketing drivel, another great feature dies on IPad OS. You are denying and harming only yourselves. It isn't me that is missing out on all this stuff, it is iPadOS and MacOS users. 

[Ibarch]

18 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

A Surface Pro would be a great setup except for one thing:

 

 

VS...

 

Yes, sadly, the $$ part. That's actually the cheapest current SP I saw; the one with an i7 and 32GB of ram is almost $2400. I got my iPad 9G on a Best Buy special that looks to be no longer in effect, paying $260 for it this past December.

 

 

I can't disagree with this. The surface Go3 is worth a look but again you need the top spec processor,so still a different ballpark.

Surface Pro is the Nord to the poor man's Casio tone I guess. 

 

And having so nicely derailed this thread, let me try and put it back on track. 

 

The iPad is an amazing music making device for it's price. Looking at the quality of virtual instruments and apps it does support takes my breath away. I never expected it to ever be this good.  The hardware is superb, take nothing from that. You absolutely can go and create amazing music on it, both live and in the studio. 

 

But it could be so much more and then Microsoft just might make my Surface pros cheaper and better too. 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Ibarch said:

Sorry, I completely disagree with this typical fan boy defence. 

 

I was speaking from some first hand experience with a Surface Pro. It can be great... but not every app displays/operates well. Every iPad app displays/operates well on every iPad screen, unless a developer really screwed up. Because the apps are designed specifically for that environment, and PC VSTs, for the most part, have not been. And if Apple permitted such "generic" VSTs to run on an iPad, they'd have that same issue.

 

1 hour ago, Ibarch said:

Apple have a history of not doing it right with iPad. Multiple times over. From their borked attempts at introducing multitasking, the dreadful access to the file system that gradually improved. The shockingly bad mouse cursor support which was just an accessibility feature till it wasn't.

 

Yes, lots of iOS stuff sucks. But your examples are of when they tried to make it do things it hadn't originally been designed to do. And the more you wish they would make it do things it wasn't originally designed to do, the more such suckage you're likely to see. ;-) But my point remains, the apps themselves format properly to the screen, with readable text, and buttons big enough to hit.

 

1 hour ago, Ibarch said:

And let's not talk about forcing iOS apps to run on MacOs without even a touch screen.

 

Nobody is forcing any iOS apps to run on MacOS. But Apple permits developers to allow their apps to run on MacOS if they want them to. Whether that's a good idea may be debatable... but I think at least it can be a good idea if this is indeed a precursor to enabling touchscreen support on Mac. 

 

1 hour ago, Ibarch said:

You weight comments are ill-informed. You should perhaps discover the surface Go3

 

How is that ill-informed? Even the Go3 is still almost double the weight of the lightest iPad.

 

1 hour ago, Ibarch said:

Surface users have the same issues with non scaling plugins that MacOs users have with 4k screens.

 

Mac users with 4k/5k screens can pick a resolution that makes everything look/scale to the size they prefer. There is no option on a Surface Pro that can make everything look reasonably right. If some stuff lets you see the entire image you want to see, other stuff will be irritatingly small. If you scale to make nothing too small, other apps will have portions that flow unusably off-screen. In my experience (admittedly a while back), there is no single setting that allows you to multitask and see every app at a decently usable size. That's not true in your Mac analogy. There's always an available size where all apps are at least decently usable.

 

1 hour ago, Ibarch said:

Fancy that, a wireless mouse working with a tablet. What a hardship. 

 

If you've got your tablet lying on your MODX7, or sitting on your Nord Stage Compact's music stand, etc., there's no ergonomically sensible place to use a mouse.

 

I think the Surface Pro can be a great solution, but I think the iPad does have some undeniable advantages... weight, price, suitability of all apps for touch on a variety of screen sizes, and ease of initial configuration among them.

 

 

[David Emm]

By the time I consider the hassles & price differential, it almost feels worth it to go with a Mac Mini and a minimal or even cheapo display. The setup for a live rig might make some of it feel impractical, but several pros have gotten good results by racking a Mini to handle things like M-Tron. The cheapest M1 can deliver quite a bit and still not break a digital sweat. Its not everyone's fix, but its solid.                                 

[ElmerJFudd]

5 hours ago, David Emm said:

By the time I consider the hassles & price differential, it almost feels worth it to go with a Mac Mini and a minimal or even cheapo display. The setup for a live rig might make some of it feel impractical, but several pros have gotten good results by racking a Mini to handle things like M-Tron. The cheapest M1 can deliver quite a bit and still not break a digital sweat. It’s not everyone's fix, but it’s solid.                                 

You can mount a mini in a 19” rack mount.   Sonnett is always a little pricey but there are competitors. 
 

 

You can run two for redundancy if worried about having to reboot.  But I’d be more inclined to drop an SSD enclosure in the second bay.  Use a 2U rack bag with a power conditioner in it and run your keys off the power as well.  
 

16” touch screen supports Multitouch. 
 

 

[Paul Woodward]

Healthy discussion is always great, but talk of Apple products inevitably becomes divisive with terms like ‘fan boy’ being used. I have a Mac mini which boots up to run Logic or Final Cut and that’s it. I am not a fan boy, but the iPad is my media device, sketchpad, notebook, and design tool as well as a musical device. For these applications (and more) there is nothing to touch it at the price and I hoped others would share their experiences of, and ideas for, using it as a musical device. 
Every device, even your dedicated boards, have limitations and niggles. If iPadOS matched OSX, there would be no distinction between a 13” tablet with keyboard and a 13” laptop. It’s just business and I never dragged a £2k MacBook Pro around with me when playing. Now a £200 tablet, yes.

[deetee]

I’ve been using an iPad for B-3X and Setlist maker for a couple of years.  After years of using Nords (with and without a Neo ventilator) and being reasonably happy, B-3X blew me away and Setlist maker is great as well - I love the program changes by clicking a song. I was fortunate in that my girlfriend won an iPad 6th gen in a raffle (this sort of thing never happens to us) but didn’t need it so donated it to me (yep, she’s a keeper) for me to try in my rig.  I was, and still am, cautious about how far I can push iPads/iPhones for music so since installing B-3X and Setlist maker, the ipad 6 has lived permanently in Airplane mode with only those two apps installed.  It works seamlessly and I’ve never had an issue with it (touch wood). In terms of cost and quality, I think it’s hard to beat.

 

Fast forward a couple of years and I’m still using the ipad 6 when gigging but have recently got an iPad Air M1 for at home.  Just to test its limitations, i installed some music apps (Korg Module, Moog Model D, Keystage, Camelot, B3X, Audiolayer etc) on the Air M1. I’m really impressed! I’ve been able to create a backup (and more) of my entire live rig (Hammond, piano, Rhodes, synths, samples etc etc), it sounds great and again works without glitches, outperforming my Nord in a number of areas. 

 

Finally, I wondered if I could use my iPhone SE 2nd gen work as a backup sound source if my Nord died on a gig?  The answer is yes. I recreated a backup rig (same as on the iPad Air M1 but VB3m instead of B3X) on the iPhone SE, and controlling everything from AUM.  It sounds great and works perfectly. The program changes aren’t as easy but if my Nord dies mid-gig I’ll probably have bigger worries on my mind!

 

I’m not sure if I’m ready to move to an iPad-only rig and that’s mostly down to how much I still love my Nord stage 2 (its an emotional connection 🤣) but I definitely think it’s do-able. My only uncertainty is which iPad or iphone meets someone’s minimum requirements.  I’ve been fortunate enough to find out by having some devices available to try it out. 

 

[Sam Mullins]

I'm contemplating replacing my Stage 3/Kronos combination with something lighter. I'm still in good health but old enough to see the writing on the wall  :

 

- A new bottom keyboard (possibly CK88 or YC73)

- Arturia Keylab II 61

- iPad

 

To the question of whether an iPad rig is reliable enough: I think it is dependent on the use case.   In my duo I have two different kinds of song setups:

 

A) around 25% of the songs require two keyboards and a bunch of splits.  An extreme example:  "Enjoy the Silence" uses most of the 16 parts on a Kronos Combi spread across two keyboards.   

B) the other 75% are some simple 1-2 part combinations of piano, epiano, bass, organ.

 

I've had a couple years experience playing at home with iPad music apps and am now seriously working on setting up Camelot Pro for this purpose. My observations are:

 

- I would never gig with just a controller + iPad.  I've had mostly good luck with iOS apps but there is the occasional flakiness (far more than the once in 6 months hiccup on the Kronos)

- The proposed setup I listed above is reliable enough FOR MY PURPOSES, because I can do all the B) category with the bottom keyboard.  So if the iPad setup flakes out I got plenty of material to work with.

 

 

[Paul Woodward]

I wondered what master keyboard we might pair with an iPad if we were to try and make that the sole instrument? Studiologic SL 73/88 for cost maybe? I don’t imagine any master board have the iPad integration of say, the YC’s/MODX etc.

Edit: @Sam Mullins you read my mind as I was typing.

[counterpoint]

Taking the SL 73/88 plus this product, the SL Mixface, looks like it could be a great IPad control set-up.  A Bluetooth connection between the device and the iPad, adds another level of coolness.

 

 

 

[Stokely]

I'm looking forward to reports about Pianoteq on IOS and how it sounds (I assume the same) and performs.

[Reezekeys]

25 minutes ago, counterpoint said:

Taking the SL 73/88 plus this product, the SL Mixface, looks like it could be a great IPad control set-up.  A Bluetooth connection between the device and the iPad, adds another level of coolness.

 

My A800 Pro has all the control surface ingredients I need to work my iPad or iPhone. I like to keep extraneous pieces to a minimum. Bluetooth adds another layer of tech. If there's something special about the Studiologic controllers you can't find on a controller with plenty of knobs, faders & buttons like my Roland, I can see the point though. I carry a NanoKontrol in case something happens to my A800 on the road and I need to use a different keyboard.

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, Sam Mullins said:

- I would never gig with just a controller + iPad.

 

I'm only gigging with a controller and iPad! Just like I gigged only with a controller and laptop for the last 16 years. It can be done.

 

1 hour ago, Sam Mullins said:

there is the occasional flakiness (far more than the once in 6 months hiccup on the Kronos)

 

Zero flakiness here - once I figured out the idiosyncrasies of how the iPad connects to my controller, and a few unexpected software issues with some plugins. There were some brief period of troubleshooting and some experimenting with different AUM setups; now I have a rig that's been stable on every gig. Luck?

[re Pete]

For myself, while Ipad and laptops offer a lot, in the back of my mind I think a thief can run off with it depending on the gig setup. 

I use an Ipad to read charts on a solo gig, but I don't leave it there alone taking a break. 

Unusual setups like one I did recently with a big band, the leader wanted me to set up basically in front of a doorway leading to a food truck!

So he wanted me to deal with wind blowing charts off a stand and people inches away of my board going in and out of the joint.

Wasn't about to do it, so I moved next to door out of the way and was better. But during break drinkers were right next to my board since no stage. 

I would not like having an Ipad there. 

So my two cents, theft and drunk people.

 

 

[Paul Woodward]

Regarding the SL73/88 suggestion, I also have an A800, but those boards provide larger playing area and weighted keys for piano work. As a control surface alone, the A800 does indeed cover much of what you need.

[HammondDave]

 Been gigging with an iPad for years. Zero issues. 

[Sam Mullins]

41 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I'm only gigging with a controller and iPad! Just like I gigged only with a controller and laptop for the last 16 years. It can be done.

 

 

Zero flakiness here - once I figured out the idiosyncrasies of how the iPad connects to my controller, and a few unexpected software issues with some plugins. There were some brief period of troubleshooting and some experimenting with different AUM setups; now I have a rig that's been stable on every gig. Luck?

 

I believe you.  I'm sure you are careful to not allow an upgrade without testing it before a gig, etc.

 

My example: twice in the last month  Neo Soul Keys has made me "re-install" libraries (it didn't really redownload but simply had lost track of the install directory..once that was reset everything was there).  First time, it was confusing enough that the thought of solving it under pressure at a gig was not appealing. Second time, I knew exactly what it was and fixed quickly.  These are the things that make me nervous.  But I'm also a person who would never gig with one keyboard...just in case one failed I would have something.  (This may be the curse of being an engineer..I worry too much)

[Stokely]

I'm a data engineer and I also have to have a fallback option for as many things as possible.

At a typical gig, the only thing I don't have a backup for is my stand, but seeing that it's an Omega pro it's hard to see how it would fail (first tier at least).  Worst case, grab a table from the venue.  I could always throw an x stand into my car to keep my backup gear case company!  I have backup earbuds, cables of all sorts, CCK, power supplies.  Two tablets aren't that much money (I could grab my wife's although I'd have to use my apple ID to get my apps), or a phone could serve as an ipad backup for most apps (B-3X unfortunately not being one.)

The reality is that at most gigs I could sit there with a tambourine and sing backup and lead if my rig died and nobody would complain.  Now, in my friend's band where the lead singer plays guitar, and only some of the time, keys carry the band so that wouldn't work!

Part of it is that I want to show up with keyboard, flip the switch, grab a beer, and play.  I have a bit of setup due to in-ears but that is minimal.   As mentioned above, I think there's also an emotional attachment to keyboards that I don't get with a tablet.  Doesn't really make logical sense, all these things are "computers" if you are talking digital   

[Reezekeys]

The only thing I'm really needing for what I'd consider an acceptable backup strategy is a second CCK. I have but one, and if that goes I'm dead in the water. For the last AWB gig where I used my iPhone, I had the laptop hooked up and running in parallel so not having a second CCK wasn't a concern. If I'm gonna leave the laptop home, I'm gonna have to get another CCK.

 

The cool thing is that in addition to the iPhone SE I use on those gigs, I also have my new iPad with a 100% identical setup - what I use when I need to read charts. I'll load my AWB setup there, sleep it, then bring it to the gig with me and have it in my backpack which I keep on stage behind my bass amp. Also, I recently came across my daughter's old iPhone 6S - so I've appropriated that and will install all my music sw there - I'll have double redundancy for gigs!

 

I connect my controller to my i-devices via USB, but also bring a small 5-pin interface, USB hub, and my Korg NanoKontrol. If something happens with my keyboard I can use anything that sends midi notes on channel 1 and has a sustain pedal jack. All my sounds & presets are accessible via the NanoKontrol.

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, Sam Mullins said:

I'm sure you are careful to not allow an upgrade without testing it before a gig, etc.

 

Being a full-time musician with not a lot of work these days, I have plenty of time to test and refine my setup! 😞  Before the AWB gig in December where I used my iPhone for the first time, we had almost a month & a half of no gigs. I used that time to mess with AUM, write Streambyter scripts, and bring samples from my Mac setup into the phone. Also, I was continuously playing my setup, with heavy emphasis on switching among sounds & presets, working the sliders & buttons, trying to break it! By the time we left for that gig I was very confident the phone would do OK, and it did.

 

I did experience some weirdness with apps "unloading" from AUM. I found different but similar apps that didn't exhibit that symptom. There was a bug in Midiflow where it crashed when I switched to a different preset after editing & saving the current one (and lost the edited preset I thought I saved); I found a workaround and it's been stable since. There's no way I'd do a gig with an i-device setup that I haven't played continuously for a decent period of time without any crashes or other anomalies. Luckily (or looking at it another way -$$- not so luckily!) I have the time at home to do that!

 

As an example of some weird stuff I found a workaround for: I noticed that with my new iPad, if I sleep it, the USB-midi connection to my keyboard is lost. Also, if the iPad is already on and I turn on my A800, the keyboard isn't recognized (it gets power from the USB connection to the CCK). The workaround is to unplug, then re-insert the lighting connector of the CCK - works every time. I never had this issue with my older iPad or my iPhones - anytime I plugged in my A800 it was recognized. This is a minor inconvenience but I accept it.

[Sam Mullins]

On the subject of redundancy, I do have two iPads...a mini 5 that I bought explicitly for music and the family iPad Pro M1..different CCK's so I'm completely covered on the iPad side.  

 

Of course after decades of sporadic gigging (and probably 30 different keyboards over the years), I've never had a keyboard hardware failure.  And of course that's because I've worried about it so much   

[Stokely]

I've had a few, but I think most were a power issue with specific venues and nothing permanent.  My really old Poly 800 would suddenly go 1/3 step out of tune--and back again just as suddenly-- for unknown reasons, and a much more recent Pc361 has a screen that is going out (have to tap it and hope it comes back...I've been told this is an issue with pc3s.)  I've also had keys go out due to dust/dirt on the contacts but that's mostly my fault for not using dust covers back in the day!

[cphollis]

On 3/29/2023 at 8:25 PM, David Emm said:

By the time I consider the hassles & price differential, it almost feels worth it to go with a Mac Mini and a minimal or even cheapo display. The setup for a live rig might make some of it feel impractical, but several pros have gotten good results by racking a Mini to handle things like M-Tron. The cheapest M1 can deliver quite a bit and still not break a digital sweat. Its not everyone's fix, but its solid.                                 

 

This.  If I'm going to have some form of computer on stage, this would be ideal from a design standpoint.  It has a real I/O subsystem and a multi-tasking OS that's up to the job.  It is designed to be used as an appliance, and offers great bang for the buck.  Used ones are a bargain, from my perspective.  And there's no shortage of great, proven software to run on it.

[Reezekeys]

Racking a Mac Mini and connecting a display for a stage setup seems incredibly more complicated than clipping an iPad to a stand or velcroing it onto a keyboard. I got into this to stop bringing a rack to gigs!

 

You can talk about "real i/o subsystems" and a "multitasking OS" but at the end of the day what matters to me is only one thing - does it work for what I need to do?

 

The types of gigs I play are not synth-heavy with tons of splits & layers and needing quick access to changing set lists - they're mostly bread & butter sounds, so maybe I'm lucky to not need to rack a computer or bring a laptop to a gig anymore. For me, the iPad, while not quite at the level of my laptop sound-quality wise, is very close and certainly "close enough for jazz"! 🙂 

[D. Gauss]

I use the newest ipad mini 6.  it's small, super powerful and just seems to work (camelot pro, vb3m, b3-x, korg module pro, ravenscrft piano, etc). HOWEVER, if it only had a damn headphone jack it would be THAT much better. Having to have a rats nest mini hub to just get audio out is asinine. Dumb ass apple bastards!

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, D. Gauss said:

I use the newest ipad mini 6.  it's small, super powerful and just seems to work (camelot pro, vb3m, b3-x, korg module pro, ravenscrft piano, etc). HOWEVER, if it only had a damn headphone jack it would be THAT much better. Having to have a rats nest mini hub to just get audio out is asinine. Dumb ass apple bastards!

Precisely why I went for a s/h ipad mini 5.

 

Chees, Mike.

[Reezekeys]

The lack of a headphone jack in the newer iPads is a major bummer and I was nervous buying my iPad 9G, knowing it was Apple's least-powerful current iPad - but being the last one with the jack I decided to take the chance and I'm very glad I did - the CPU in AUM is usually loafing along at around 20 - 25% no matter what sounds I play, layered or not, heavy sustain pedal, etc., all with a 128 buffer. I may not get as many years out of it as I would with an Air or Pro, but for the $$ spent it's a total winner, imo.

[Stokely]

That would be the one I'd go for as well.  If I do it...right now I have an SK pro taking organ duties at most gigs, and I'm considering changing out my Modx for a Nord Stage 3 as a main keyboard and/or solo keyboard at certain gigs.  No need for an ipad other than perhaps setlist maker and lyrics if I do.   I'd say you might get more years than you think, considering mine is 4th gen and it handles B-3X fine, performance is not a problem.