Rudimentary question - cart and loading

[aronnelson]

Over the years, I have only used the first Rock and roller cart. However, despite strapping the keyboards vertical with bungie cords, I have managed to drop every single one. With the exception of my Kronos (which also fell but in SKB case), every keyboard except the smallest have endured a crack or two on the edge.  For the guys that gig a lot, how do you move your keyboards around without drops? Are there better straps than the standard bungie? How many bungie cords do you use? The next keyboard that will probably crack will be my RD-88, so checking out any recommendations for avoiding the inevitable. I usually carry one or two keyboards + stand stacked vertically against the "back" handle and bungie strapped. Then 2 speakers and a gig bag. Although compact, disasters still happen - maybe there is no answer?

[timwat]

Hey Aron,

 

I use a larger RnR cart (I think it's their "10" model), which I upgraded the front wheels to pneumatic.

 

Yes, loading boards vertically is always more precarious than flat. And flat is difficult with multiple 73 or 88s in cases. Going vertical means you're always tempting simple physics - when a heavy 88 in case starts to tip, there is simply too much mass for a single bungie to prevent the tip. Been there, dropped that.

 

Some things I've found that help some:

 

- double bungie at two different locations on the case (think of dividing the span 1/3 and 2/3),

- double bungie each case (first the one touching the handle, then the next one...),

- trying to wedge as much big stuff against the cases.

 

All of which, you've probably tried. Still, over bumpy terrain, or lateral inclines, or other precarious conditions other than dry flat pavement, eventually something is going to try to offset the center of gravity and the boards are going to want to tilt off the cart. I try to anticipate (push or pull from the side with the boards, and proactively stabilize them) the dreaded lean. Been there, dropped that.

 

The only really successful way I've found using the cart after all these years:

 

- first trip after parking is with one small hand carry item, to survey the load in, take a look at the stage and set up, note any challenges / obstacles / threats.

- try like the dickens to lay the heavy boards flat. Reserve the vertical load orientation for the lighter boards that won't threaten the bungies.

- go slow, don't rush, stabilize, stabilize, stabilize

- as much as possible, stick with a two board rig. Everything we're talking about only becomes an issue when I try to use more than 2 boards.

 

Sorry couldn't be more help, but share the pain.

[aronnelson]

Thanks! I figured as much.... was hoping someone had found some type of sneaky method and you are right. It doesn't happen all the time.... mostly on bad terrain and when rushing I guess. Actually you have a good point, maybe push while holding the keyboards instead of pulling and not paying enough attention. Let's see how long the RD can go without a massive fall LOL. I think I am going to the hardware store and getting more high-quality bungie cords. My PX-5S did not take kindly to a drop.

[timwat]

If it helps any, I'd suggest building a good selection of bungies of different lengths (2 of each, like Noah's Ark LOL). Nothing sets up a train wreck quite like a loose bungie.

 

Oh, and one more thing struck my mind - I've had (relatively) good success when going vertical, bungie the biggest boards one board each to North and South cart handles, and everything else in the middle. 

[ShadowMan]

I use ratchet straps to secure my keyboards vertically to my cart.  $12 each at Harbor Freight.  You can snug them down really tight and nothing will shift. 

 

I also will use one around the top bars of an X stand (when I use one) - and even if the stand should fail, the strap tension would  prevent a collapse. 

[TommyRude]

If you can carve out some time, find a place to practice, i.e. an empty parking lot.  Try all the configurations, try pushing and pulling.  You can do it without the pressure of actually having to get your gear to the stage.  With some practice, you'll figure out all the best methods for real, and you'll be much better prepped when gig time comes.

[MathOfInsects]

This is an obsession of mine.

 

First, can I ask--you say your Kronos "also fell but in an SKG case." What are the others in? I'm asking because I've never cracked a board per se, and my first impulse is to suggest better cases either way. Plus with road cases, you could always make those the bottom layer of your load. 

 

Regarding the cart: the most stable arrangement is a triangle, stacked with the high end nearest your steering handle. So your rig would go speaker plus gig bag against the handle, then speaker, then keyboards/stand lengthwise across that, which will result in a right angle triangle with your keyboards as the long edge, bisecting the stand at an angle. Then bungie that if you want, across the boards to the handle. This changes the force from downward to at least partially against the crooks of your stand--much more stable. 

Second most stable is low and long. Given your experience with these boards, you could opt to make the Rock n Roller its maximum length and do the least possible amount of stacking. A couple of bungies should hold that pretty well.

Third most stable is wear at least one of your keyboards as a backpack, since that shape is the most likely to destabilize your cart if there's a stack of them. 

In last place is anything that puts your keyboards upright*--as Tim says, that put the center of balance way too high to trust with a couple of bungies.

 

*Unless you can tilt the stand back at an angle, which puts the load back into a triangle, which puts you back on top of the world.

[Stokely]

I struggle with my R&R cart as well. I have one case that I'd dare to stack on, so I could lay flat...but then it can be hard to get through doors and elevators (thankfully not the norm).   But as mentioned, going vertically means they want to fall off.

Having a bottom on the cart would help, last time I folded up a furniture blanket to roughly the size of the R&R bed and it helped.  I have the R14 and I've thought about cutting a board to size to pop on there.

Having stands make it awkward as well.  That's another reason I like going vertical--I can have keys 1, keys 2 vertically closest to me, then my Husky (tm!) tool gear box on the cart with my Omega Pro solidly on it.  My fan can get on there nicely as well.  The Spider pro is a real problem when I take it, being a cylinder...as is a stool but I rarely sit to play...

I have some flat bungies that work pretty well, but I reckon straps are a better idea now that I think of it.  I have a bunch, I'll look at using one or two next time.

[D. Gauss]

1 hour ago, ShadowMan said:

I use ratchet straps.

this .  cheap at home depot or amazon.

[eric]

I have lately been working on improving my cart situation, as about 75% of my gigs have a predictable load in that is perfect for doing a one-time roll with the cart. I have the R&R "10" I think - I got it a LONG time ago, maybe 15 years ago and there are probably better ones available now. Mine has big tires on one end and the little tiny ones on the other end. I think I'd ultimately be better off with all four tires being the bigger ones. About a year ago I replaced my big tires/wheels that were the "pump up" variety (and were perpetually flat) with new ones that are hard and don't require pumping up, the equivalent of R&R "run flat" I suppose, LOL.

 

I lay my gear as flat as I can on my R&R cart. Anvil style keyboard case first on the bottom, then my 4-space rack and two Anvil brief cases on top of this. My pedal board straddles the rack and then my stand is on top of that, about level with the handle on the cart. I have been using a pair of bunjee cords to hook over the gear and keep it from sliding off one side or the other, only really needed over a small curb or incline. I am still having times when the whole thing gets unwieldy and will tend to dump some of the gear off to the side.

 

I may try the ratchet straps next, and perhaps look at getting a new R&R cart with more substantial wheels.

[Delaware Dave]

I tried this one time by borrowing my friends R&R cart where I had to carry equipment a significant difference.  TBH, if the cart were mine I would have dumped it in the trash, it was just frustrating balancing, strapping, and continuous retrieving of items that fell over.  I did one trip, then folded it up and put it away; the time it took to do one trip I could have made three trips and just carried the rest of the stuff (which is exactly what I did).

 

The guy that owned the R&R cart that I borrowed is now in my band and although he gets everything to and from his car in one trip, the time it takes him to stack, pack, strap and carefully roll he is always the last of the 5 of us to get to the destination (either to the stage or to his car).  I just suck it up and carry the stuff, it is quicker and despite alot of stuff I bring (two k/b's, mic stand, k/b stand, drum throne, gig bag, PPA) I can retrieve everything faster than he can with less stuff that I carry.  My PPA and gig bag are on wheels and I can put stuff on top of my PPA so I can do everything quickly in two trips.

[CowboyNQ]

4 hours ago, aronnelson said:

For the guys that gig a lot, how do you move your keyboards around without drops? 

Every keyboard has its own hard case with in-line wheels.  I’ve never used carts to transport from vehicle to venue (although have used venue-provided carts to transport from loading dock to stage).

 

It means multiple trips between transport vehicle and the venue, but I’m ok with that.

 

[aronnelson]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

This is an obsession of mine.

 

First, can I ask--you say your Kronos "also fell but in an SKG case." What are the others in? I'm asking because I've never cracked a board per se, and my first impulse is to suggest better cases either way. Plus with road cases, you could always make those the bottom layer of your load. 

 

 

All good points. My Kronos was in the SKB, we were going over rough terrain and it was gravel+hills and I got to the end and right then the cart tilted, the bungie cable flexed and the case went down - of course I tried to catch the keyboard which made it worse and the EV speaker fell off the cart and rolled onto the SKB which pushed it down enough to crack the lowest octave of black keys. Irritating. In retrospect - more Bungie cords! Stop and lift if the road looks too bumpy. I have had various soft and hard cases and you are right - if I had hard cases for everything, I would have less of a problem, but an 88 note keyboard in a hard case.... those days are gone. And someone said strap it on your back - you are right! Now that I think about it, my S90ES never took a fall because it was always on my back - but that was a monster to take to the gig with so little polyphony. I try to get away with one keyboard if I can now. All splits and layers and bluetooth MIDI switching. It works I guess. But I might try the RD-88 on some gigs.

[TommyRude]

[Noah DC]

15 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Third most stable is wear at least one of your keyboards as a backpack, since that shape is the most likely to destabilize your cart if there's a stack of them. 

Second this. Helps a lot to take one keyboard off the roller cart stack. 
 

Hey slightly off topic, but you mentioned on another thread that you have a cart that can kick back into an angled position, which allows it to double-up as an amp stand on stage. What cart model is that? I use the RR R6RT with no trouble, but I dig the idea of leaving my amp stand behind…

[Stokely]

I agree with Dave above that most of the time I'd prefer to do multiple trips than use my cart.  It's a PITA to load it up.  I don't have that much stuff.   I can't do my two keyboard rig with one trip really but definitely I can do it in two.  The Husky rolling tool cart has been the best gear case I've tried...waterproof, wheels, can stack, and my pedalboard bag fits perfectly in it!  Of my two keyboard bags/cases, one is a backpack and one rolls.  The real challenge is the Omega Pro stand with 2nd tier...I can one-hand it but not for all that long and not in tight spaces.

That said, occasionally there's a situation where the cart is a must.  We've had a few very long hauls from unloading to a stage, sometimes in 100 degree heat.
I'd say that's only about 10% or less of my gigs but it's good to know the option is there.

I really do need to try a wide strap around the car lengthwise/horizontal to act as guardrails, and maybe bungees here and there to tighten things down.  The main problem with these carts when stuff is vertical is that things fall to the side obviously.  Having a bottom under the gear helps as otherwise it's just a couple thin steel bars, I'm going to try a piece of wood for that to see if it helps.

[MathOfInsects]

2 hours ago, Noah DC said:

Second this. Helps a lot to take one keyboard off the roller cart stack. 
 

Hey slightly off topic, but you mentioned on another thread that you have a cart that can kick back into an angled position, which allows it to double-up as an amp stand on stage. What cart model is that? I use the RR R6RT with no trouble, but I dig the idea of leaving my amp stand behind…

The Crane AMG 500, which is sometimes sold as a GruvGear cart. 

That handle folds back at the red button, so it's only as tall as that bottom section. I stick my gear bag on that little platform in back when I do this, both as a counter-balance and because it's a nifty hidden place for it onstage.

[HammondDave]

I take two trips from my car to the stage. A rock n roller loaded with my two monitors, stand, cable bag, and seat… and the second trip where I wheel custom wheeled cases for my MODX7 and Mojo 61.  I would never put those keys on a trolly. 

[MathOfInsects]

As for the question in general:

 

I am OCD about this. The stuff goes in the car in reverse order to how I will load the cart. The stuff goes on the cart in reverse order to what I need when for set-up. So I roll in, take the stand off and set it up, take the keys off and set them on it, take the cable bag off, and then either set the amp up on a little stand or just roll the cart to where I want the amp and leave it there, depending on the gig.

Load out goes in the opposite order: amp on cart, cable bag on amp, cables into that bag after it's already on the cart, keys next and stand last.
 

I'm a huge believer that if a job is essentially, "Lift something and put it somewhere else," you do that once instead of creating a "twice." Don’t get me started on the dishes next to the sink. You were that close!
 

If I lift my amp for load-out, the place I'll put it down is on the cart. If I touch my cable bag for load-out, I might as well put it where it's going anyway, which is on top of the amp on the cart. Then I fill it from there.

Then everything goes back into its storage slot in the house in the order I'll need it in to load out again next time.

Needless to say I'm often carted up and wheeling out even before the bass player or horn blowers.

 

[Stokely]

I'd like to be able to do that, but my 5-seat suv doesn't really allow for it.  That, and the Omega pro stand with 2nd tiers as well as the fact that one keyboard is in a bag.  It's one reason I'd like a bigger vehicle among several--it's not that my stuff doesn't fit, it doesn't fit conveniently  

I don't drive to work anymore so gas mileage isn't really a concern.  If not for gigs I'd put maybe 10 miles a week on my car, give or take the odd trip.   I miss our old Honda Odyssey (though I don't miss the low liftgate at perfect head-bashing height, any vehicle I buy has to pass the "moron forehead lunge" test.)

[SamuelBLupowitz]

3 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Needless to say I'm often carted up and wheeling out even before the bass player or horn blowers.

I've got some learning to do at your feet, I think, my friend!

[Stokely]

Ain't no way I'm going to beat our bass player.  He goes direct (as we all do) with a sansamp and his in-ear rig is as self-contained and organized as you can get.  He still uses a cart for his bass and gear bag, hes literally out of there in about 3 minutes.  He starts doing some packing halfway through the last set  

I hate the gigs with drum sets there with a built-in PA because then I'm last by a country mile   (ok, I don't hate them, but I gain the least benefit!  Gotta throw the drummer a bone sometimes).   Normally I beat the guitarist and singer because they own the PA, but it's surprisingly easy and quick to set up/tear down.

[MathOfInsects]

9 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Ain't no way I'm going to beat our bass player.  He goes direct (as we all do) with a sansamp and his in-ear rig is as self-contained and organized as you can get.  He still uses a cart for his bass and gear bag, hes literally out of there in about 3 minutes.  He starts doing some packing halfway through the last set  

 

2 hours ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

I've got some learning to do at your feet, I think, my friend!

 

One bass player and I have a sort of unspoken race after the gig. He's even got a roadie, but I'm still done before him a lot of times, even with two keyboards. Me turning my keyboards off after the last song is the same motion as me pulling all the cables out of the back of the boards. My pedals are snaked together; I literally walk to my gig bag with the pedals in my hands ready to deposit in it. #no_wasted_steps

At any rate, either way we're always the first and second carted up, and are standing there smug while everyone else is still wrapping cables or breaking down drums. I take a weird pride in it, but also just "solving" the puzzle appeals to me.

[Synthaholic]

Kurzweil PC4-7 in Gator G-PG-76 Pro-Go Series Gig Bag sitting atop, L-R:

 

• 2 On-Stage KS7150 Platform stands
• Spacestation V3
• Backpack full of accessories on top of cordwheel of 30+ feet cabling to connect to Spacestation 
• Gator 4-space rack for synth module/VoiceLive Touch 2
• Briefcase with laptop, microphone, business cards and W9 forms, occasional lyrics
• Unseen beneath the keyboard is a folding Ultimate Support piano bench

 

 

The platform stands straddle the Rock 'n Roller cart like they were made for it. Keyboard is always stable. 

 

EDIT TO ADD:  I also got a local metalwork to extend the length of the cart another 16"-18", which is convenient for bringing along my EV or JBL speakers for extra volume/bass. h/t @cphollis, I do believe. Really great idea, and you can't even find the weld points, it was so well done.

 

[Dave Keys]

I load and unload 4 items only for a gig;

Kronos in hard case

Electro 5 HP in hard case

Spider Pro Stand in case.

Bag containing all wires iems and iPad etc.

 

 
 

[ewall08530]

Everything in 1 trip. 
left to right:

*Bose Pro 8 sub

*wire bag

*2 small step stools

* Table type keyboard stand

*folding piano bench 

*rug

*Pro 8 towers in bag 

*Backpack (iPad, mic stand, in IEM’s Mics. 
*Casio PX S-7000 

not pictured- Soundcraft 6 channel note pad mixer over my shoulder. 

[aronnelson]

My bass player is packing up on the last song. I never beat him and sometimes I'm down to 2 power speakers, X stand and keyboard. 

We started leaving so soon that the band leader didn't have a chance to give us the checks! Some gigs you need to leave and get paid later!!!!!

[D. Gauss]

16 hours ago, ewall08530 said:

Everything in 1 trip. 
left to right:

*Bose Pro 8 sub

*wire bag

*2 small step stools

* Table type keyboard stand

*folding piano bench 

*rug

*Pro 8 towers in bag 

*Backpack (iPad, mic stand, in IEM’s Mics. 
*Casio PX S-7000 

not pictured- Soundcraft 6 channel note pad mixer over my shoulder. 

 

Good luck getting that down the wet, icy stairs and onto the packed NYC subway.   

[stoken6]

On 2/22/2023 at 4:25 PM, MathOfInsects said:

I'm a huge believer that if a job is essentially, "Lift something and put it somewhere else," you do that once instead of creating a "twice." Don’t get me started on the dishes next to the sink. You were that close!

Wonderful - love this.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Stokely]

Gah.  I have been out in my garage trying to figure out the best way to configure my cart for a long-rolling resort gig this Friday.  They have flatbed carts available but I'm bringing mine in case those suck...but having issues.

I'm bringing as small a rig as possible and I might be able to get away with hoofing it, or backpacking my keyboard/and or cables, but it's a long haul and it's going to be 89 degrees Friday.

The problem:  The ^&*% Spider Pro stand.  The bag broke but it's so thin it wouldn't help.  The problem is that it's a cylinder.  I can't stack stuff on it even with a blanket and my rug folded into a sort of rectangle, the whole thing is unstable.  If it's on end, the ends aren't square so again it's not stable.  If it's on top, it wants to roll and slide off.   That  brings up the 2nd problem--the Modx is in a bag, so I don't want to put the stand on it anyway.   If I put both on end vertically, even strapped to the cart the whole thing wants to slide sideways.

Basically I'm coming to the conclusion that a stackable, cartable rig isn't really compatible with having one that is easy to carry.   The Modx in a case would help.  The Spider Pro would be an issue for my cart regardless unless it was in an actual case or box.  If either of my X stands could get tall enough (I stand and am tall) I'd bring one since they lay flat. 

I think my best bet is to have a furniture blanket "floor" under both the modx case but especially the spider pro stacked vertically on the end where I will be handling the cart (so I can grab any slippage).  straps/bungies to do what I can to hold that damn spider pro upright.   This will also mean the cart can be shorter, so elevators and tight turns won't be as much of a problem.