Keyboards with XLR outputs

[Baldwin Funster]

Phantom power. Worst invention ever. At least as far as the confusion and damage caused. You have mics that dont work without external contrivances that may or may not be in the correct pins or have enough voltage. You have tiny pushbuttons on mixers that kill things when pushed at the wrong times and make loud THUNK!!! sounds. You have other stuff and bad things.

And on a live sound mixer? I'd guess 95% of the time or more nobody is using a condenser mic live. Unless your Mariah Carey. 

[Delaware Dave]

We have one singer who from time to time fills in.  He uses a condensor mic but runs the mic through some contraption that supplies the phantom power before the signal hits the board.  His mic sounds no better than my SM58 Beta.  Not sure what advantage he feels he's getting with his mic.

[Leroy C]

A handy article:

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-how-to-protect-audio-interface-phantom-power-damage

 

[EricBarker]

Look, I think a world without phantom power would be worse off. Can you imagine battery upkeep on all live condensers? Some battery is destined to go bad mid-gig and be very hard to track down. Same reason it's stupid for guitarists to run their pedals off 9Vs. You just can't remove +48V from the equation without a world of pain. However, any device that's susceptible to damage from phantom SHOULD BE PROTECTED. We have the technology, why isn't it there? $3000 ribbon mics that self destruct the moment someone forgets... really really dumb. Keyboards and interfaces that could potentially damage themselves and out going circuitry, stupid. 48V is a fact of life for studio and live setup. If the device is going to cause problems with phantom, it should be protected. This just makes no sense to me.

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

We have one singer who from time to time fills in.  He uses a condensor mic but runs the mic through some contraption that supplies the phantom power before the signal hits the board.  His mic sounds no better than my SM58 Beta.  Not sure what advantage he feels he's getting with his mic.

He already owns it for one thing? If it sounds as good as an SM58 Beta then it's a nice vocal mic. 

[Leroy C]

2 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

We have one singer who from time to time fills in.  He uses a condensor mic but runs the mic through some contraption that supplies the phantom power before the signal hits the board.  His mic sounds no better than my SM58 Beta.  Not sure what advantage he feels he's getting with his mic.

Hey, be nice to singers.  They don't have as many opportunities to indulge GAS as the rest of us.   He probably just bought it because it was shiny!  

 

[The Real MC]

XLR jack does not automatically imply balanced output.

XLR jacks can be unbalanced also.  ARP was one of the culprits, hardly the last.

 

I prefer using my own DI.

[KuruPrionz]

17 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

XLR jack does not automatically imply balanced output.

XLR jacks can be unbalanced also.  ARP was one of the culprits, hardly the last.

 

I prefer using my own DI.

Me too! If my Tech 21 Q/Strip died or went away, I'd get another. Works with everything and sounds great. Runs on phantom power or battery or power supply. Great in the studio or on stage. 

[EricBarker]

Repeat after me:

“The plug says nothing about the signal.

The plug says nothing about the signal.

The plug says nothing about the signal.”

 

Seriously, I don’t know how many times I have to remind people about this. They find an XLR to TS cable and they think they’ve solved the meaning of life!

[stoken6]

10 hours ago, Jr. Deluxe said:

And on a live sound mixer? I'd guess 95% of the time or more nobody is using a condenser mic live.

 

6 hours ago, EricBarker said:

Look, I think a world without phantom power would be worse off.  [...] However, any device that's susceptible to damage from phantom SHOULD BE PROTECTED. We have the technology, why isn't it there? [...] Keyboards and interfaces that could potentially damage themselves and out going circuitry, stupid. 48V is a fact of life for studio and live setup. If the device is going to cause problems with phantom, it should be protected. This just makes no sense to me.

In my band, sax players bought themselves condenser mics that require phantom power. They're budget devices, but sound better than a dynamic on a stand (mainly because moving the instrument doesn't change the sound). The desk in our rehearsal studio has a global phantom-power switch for all mic channels, we obviously needed to turn it on last night. If my keyboard had CP4-style XLR outs I could have damaged it without thinking. 

 

Radial obviously get it right with their Key Largo - the XLRs are true DI, and isolated for protection. 

[time4jazz]

Thanks all for the input. I’m happy I wasn’t the only one who was surprised and dismayed by this situation!  Not only will I not be using a keyboard’s or amp’s XLR outputs, I bought these XLR caps to help discourage any inadvertent use by me or someone else. 🙂

[Adam Burgess]

On 2/9/2023 at 9:04 AM, EricBarker said:

Repeat after me:

“The plug says nothing about the signal.

The plug says nothing about the signal.

The plug says nothing about the signal.”

 

Seriously, I don’t know how many times I have to remind people about this. They find an XLR to TS cable and they think they’ve solved the meaning of life!

What's worse is a Stereo 1/8" TRS jack to a Mono 1/4" Balanced TRS jack into a mono (bal/unbal) input… 

 

[Adam Burgess]

On 2/9/2023 at 7:06 AM, The Real MC said:

XLR jack does not automatically imply balanced output.

XLR jacks can be unbalanced also.  ARP was one of the culprits, hardly the last.

 

I prefer using my own DI.

True. Bose 802s used to use XLR for speaker level…

[The Real MC]

5 hours ago, Adam Burgess said:

True. Bose 802s used to use XLR for speaker level…

and old Vox speaker cabinets

[Docbop]

Funny been reading this thread and I've been thinking again about getting a Yamaha CP or YC piano and watch a YT from someone on their reactions after a year of using the YC88.   I think it was the first thing he loved about it was the XLR outputs from using with his band and for a worship band.   

[Paul Henry]

When I got my Roland Fantom7 I thought it nice to have XLR outputs to plug into my little studio board. 

My Zoom L12 board has two separate 48v power section buttons. I don't plug mics into this board so I would hope I never 

turn on the Phantom power........but then there's Murphy's Law. So I just got rid of the XLRs and put in 1/4" cables.

Done deal for my particular situation.

Thanks for the schooling.

 

Paul

[TommyRude]

On 2/7/2023 at 1:50 PM, time4jazz said:

I have a CP73, which, like some other keyboards, has XLR outputs.  Although this can be very convenient, I wonder if the keyboard’s output circuit is protected against phantom power that’s accidentally switched on at the mixer. If instead, audio is run from the keyboard’s 1/4” jacks and then through a DI box, the DI’s transformer protects against the accidental DC voltage. Does anyone know if the output circuit is protected when using the keyboard’s XLR outputs?  Thx

from Chatbot:

 

Most professional audio equipment, including keyboards, should be designed with some level of protection against phantom power. Phantom power is a DC voltage that is commonly used to power condenser microphones through the XLR cable, but it can also damage certain types of audio equipment if it is applied to the wrong type of input.

It's difficult to say for certain without seeing the specifications for your specific keyboard, but many keyboards with XLR outputs have built-in protection against phantom power.

 

However, it's always a good idea to double-check the manufacturer's specifications or documentation to make sure. If you are unsure, using a DI (direct injection) box as you mentioned, is a safe and effective way to protect your equipment from phantom power and other potential electrical issues. The DI box will convert the unbalanced signal from the 1/4” jack to a balanced signal that can be sent over long distances without picking up noise, and it will also provide protection against accidental application of phantom power.

[Adam Burgess]

3 hours ago, TommyRude said:

The DI box will convert the unbalanced signal from the 1/4” jack to a balanced signal that can be sent over long distances without picking up noise, and it will also provide protection against accidental application of phantom power.

And sometimes, it will be an active DI which is why we still need phantom power

[Dave Keys]

If you want to use your XLR outs without fear of some engineer frying your board with phantom power, do what I do and stick 1/4” trs or ts adapters on the mixer end of your cable (I use a 15m loom reel for this). 

[Reezekeys]

5 hours ago, Dave Keys said:

If you want to use your XLR outs without fear of some engineer frying your board with phantom power, do what I do and stick 1/4” trs or ts adapters on the mixer end of your cable (I use a 15m loom reel for this). 

 

With that scenario, unless the 1/4" inputs on the board are balanced TRS, I don't see the point of using XLR cables in the first place; the connection is not balanced. You lose the main advantage of XLR, so might as well go 1/4" cabling all the way.

 

I've seen 1/4" balanced TRS outputs on mixing boards, never TRS inputs however. It would be interesting to know they exist.

[Adam Burgess]

3 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I've seen 1/4" balanced TRS outputs on mixing boards, never TRS inputs however. It would be interesting to know they exist.

Most pro desks' jacks are balanced. Even my favourite little mixer, the XR18 has balanced jack ins.

[ITGITC]

3 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I've seen 1/4" balanced TRS outputs on mixing boards, never TRS inputs however. It would be interesting to know they exist.

 

 

I've got a Mackie 1402.  It uses fully balanced inputs on channels 7-8. 9-10, 11-12, 13-14.

 

Here's their manual:  https://mackie.com/img/file_resources/1402VLZ4_OM.pdf

 

 

 

 

[rogs]

Yamaha themselves say that plugging the XLR outputs from a CP73  into an input with phantom power on will cause 'noise static and distortion'.

Suggests it should survive I would guess? ... not to be recommended though, by the sound of it! 🙂

 

https://faq.yamaha.com/usa/s/article/U0008690 

[Reezekeys]

Thanks guys for clueing me in to balanced 1/4" inputs! So you could go with XLR cables+adapters to these desks and not worry about phantom power. No DIs needed for long runs if you have the adapters.

[Dave Keys]

On 2/11/2023 at 2:20 PM, Reezekeys said:

 

With that scenario, unless the 1/4" inputs on the board are balanced TRS, I don't see the point of using XLR cables in the first place; the connection is not balanced. You lose the main advantage of XLR, so might as well go 1/4" cabling all the way.

 

I've seen 1/4" balanced TRS outputs on mixing boards, never TRS inputs however. It would be interesting to know they exist.

 

Yep, fair point. My loom/reel just happens to be balanced XLR's, so covers me for a variety of scenarios. Some of the desks I plug into are balanced TRS. My main concern is having flexibility to do long cable runs, not have engineers fry my boards, and to wind up the cable quickly after the last song so I can get home! 🙂

[PianoMan51]

On 2/11/2023 at 1:43 PM, rogs said:

Yamaha themselves say that plugging the XLR outputs from a CP73  into an input with phantom power on will cause 'noise static and distortion'.

Suggests it should survive I would guess? ... not to be recommended though, by the sound of it! 🙂

 

https://faq.yamaha.com/usa/s/article/U0008690 

This is perfectly okay for me. Perfect would be that the balanced outputs on the keyboard were indifferent to phantom power, but at least the keyboard won’t be damaged.

 

Since many of us on the forum are of an ‘engineering mindset’, I’d like to point out why FOH guys probably demand DIs. It’s that the DI is a guaranteed buffer between the stage gear and the mixer. Sure, directly connecting could work in most cases, but the DI protects both the stage gear and the mixer (with any weird designs) from harm, and allows interoperability and ground lifts. 

[Reezekeys]

25 minutes ago, PianoMan51 said:

DI protects both the stage gear and the mixer (with any weird designs) from harm, and allows interoperability and ground lifts. 

 

Exactly, you don't see ground lift switches on those keyboards with XLRs do you? (Maybe I'm wrong about that too! 🙂 )

 

Has anyone here ever done a gig with a pro sound company where they were told "sorry we don't have any DIs" or "we ran out of DIs"? Not me.

 

I do have my own - a cheap Samson stereo active DI. I use it maybe once a year or two. The kinds of gigs I do are either smallish local jazz gigs with no PA, where my two PPA speakers are all that's required, or on the road where there's always DIs provided.

 

I can see using XLRs on a keyboard in a recording studio, I'm guessing that's what the designers intended.

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

Has anyone here ever done a gig with a pro sound company where they were told "sorry we don't have any DIs" or "we ran out of DIs"? Not me.

+1. The head of the sound crew we used on Saturday said: "Electric violin? I'll need a DI box". I said I had a spare. "No, I've got loads!"

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Delaware Dave]

What if your Powered Monitor has an XLR out that you use to connect to the FOH mixer that has phantom power turned on.  Where would the potential damage occur, just at the monitor or would it travel back into the mixer (feeding the monitor) and potentially into keyboards?  Or is there protection built into the XLR of a powered monitor to prevent damage?

[Adam Burgess]

Depends.

Some speakers' outputs are wired straight across the input (in this case from your keyboard), so there'd be no protection from phantom travelling to the keyboard. Some will have active circuitry and protection.

Just gotta mail QSC or Yamaha or whoever and ask…