It’s time for a new keyboard amplifier

[Doug Robinson]

Hello friends. I was an early adopter of the space station by Aspen Pittman and it has served me really well.

 

One of the drawbacks of it is that if you are playing too close to it, it doesn’t sound very pleasant to you or the people on either side of it. In a big theater it’s been amazing, because I can put it 6 feet behind me and run a line out to the house system for a little bit of fill. But more and more I find myself playing in cramped quarters, and I’m not enjoying the sound of my keyboards, plus I’m getting some complaints from my fellow band mates. 

 

To make things worse, I’m getting distortion from time to time now and because I live in central Mexico, sending it to a qualified repair person is a huge hassle and very expensive.

 

and so, I reluctantly need to switch things up, find something new that suits my current venues a little better.

 

I’d like to stay around $800 or less. And that 67, I have to stress that I need it to be as light weight as possible. I love my magical town of San Miguel de Allende Mexico, but… The roads are cobblestone. Parking is often a problem so fast load in and load out is a way of life. Often I can get someone to help me but not often enough. 

 

What I’ve loved about the space station was how it handled my two keyboards, a Casio PX 5S for piano and electric piano sounds, and my Hammond SK one for Organ and more. Out in the room, it’s really beautiful how it handles those two boards. The sound is non-directional, and just as advertised, it fills the room. I played last night to a packed club of about 85 people and I had a friend sit in, and I loved the way it sounded from the back of the room.
 

I don’t want to rule out another boutique amplifier just because it will be a hassle to get it serviced down here, but I am leaning towards something where that would not be the case.

 

so what I’m looking for is something that sounds good to me even if I’m close to it, somethings that can fill a house of up to 100 people without any other sound reinforcement, and something that does a decent job of representing stereo. Two powered monitors might be the way to go, although my back is telling me to tread lightly. 
 

anybody using a rig that might work for me, given these parameters?

[AnotherScott]

For stereo in your budget, I'd probably go with a pair of Alto TS408.

[Adan]

I'd recommend the Motion Sound 408s, got mine as a demo model for $900.  But it's 40 lbs and an awkward shape to carry.  A need for lighter weight will probably lead you to separate powered speakers.

[D. Gauss]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

For stereo in your budget, I'd probably go with a pair of Alto TS408.

this.

[Doug Robinson]

That's great, thanks. Gear selection is limited down here, but I just happen to be headed to a town this afternoon where I know they have Altos.

[HammondDave]

20 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

For stereo in your budget, I'd probably go with a pair of Alto TS408.

 

I am 67 too and use a pair of Alto TS410's.  Weight is not an issue with these puppies, and at 2000 watts each, pretty loud and clear. 

[cphollis]

A pair of Altos seem to be the current consensus for "entry level self-powered PA".  It used to be the EV ZAX1s.

 

For audiences like yours, I use a pole speaker with a sub.  No stereo, but it pleasantly fills the room with a crisp sound that everyone can hear.  Not sure what can be done for $800 unless we are talking used gear.

 

I've never had to buy gear in central Mexico

[cphollis]

Also, on your SSv3, you might want to open it up and check for loose screws and rattles.  That's what happened to mine.

[AnotherScott]

16 minutes ago, cphollis said:

A pair of Altos seem to be the current consensus for "entry level self-powered PA".  It used to be the EV ZAX1s.

The ZXa1 still sounds bit more open on the top. But the Alto, for me, still crosses the threshold of providing a "good enough to be satisfying" piano reproduction, and costs less. Also, the way the weight is balanced on the ZXa1 relative to its mounting point creates a stability problem on a short pole, and the Alto doesn't have that problem. (Either are fine on standard height poles, or in floor monitor position.)

[Doug Robinson]

Thanks cphollis--that happened to me once but this ain't that.

 

I pulled the trigger on a pair of Alto TS410s and I'll report back once they show up. I have to be deprgrammed from my SpaceStation training--I loved the fact that it was tri-directional and you didn't have to be sitting in a sweet spot to get the benefits of the stereo spread. Anyway, we will see how I do.

[D. Gauss]

4 hours ago, Doug Robinson said:

 

 

I pulled the trigger on a pair of Alto TS410s  

fwiw, the ts408s are cheaper and lighter.

[Doug Robinson]

Thanks, yes I know. But another 67-year-old  here mentioned that he had no problem carrying the 410s. And I took it as a challenge. 🙂
 

but seriously, the weight difference didn’t seem that much of a problem, and I figured that for situations where I use only one it would be better to have a little extra power.

[D. Gauss]

iirc, powers is the same on both.  larger speaker gives you an xtra db or 2 in spl.

[EricBarker]

Am I right in assuming that the 410s have a bit wider projection than the 408s? My experience is that smaller speakers are able to deliver the same volume, but only in a very focused beam, while larger ones have broader coverage. Is that the case here?

 

If that’s the case, both have their advantages.

[AnotherScott]

5 minutes ago, EricBarker said:

Am I right in assuming that the 410s have a bit wider projection than the 408s? My experience is that smaller speakers are able to deliver the same volume, but only in a very focused beam, while larger ones have broader coverage. Is that the case here?

 

I don't know about the Motion Sounds, but in the case of the QSC K series, the opposite is true. The 8" model has 105 degree dispersion, the 10" is 90 degrees, and the 12" is 75 degrees.

[Doug Robinson]

3 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

iirc, powers is the same on both.  larger speaker gives you an xtra db or 2 in spl.

Yes, I think I was misusing the word. I meant a bigger sound because of the larger speaker.

[Doug Robinson]

Alto TS10

 

Well, after a couple of weeks messing around with them in my house, where I thought I had made a really brilliant decision, I played my first gig tonight. Granted, it was outside, which is never my favorite place to play. No complaints whatsoever about the sound that the speakers re-created. But playing with two separate speakers as opposed to my SS3 was frustrating.

 

First, I positioned the speakers in the wedge position and the drummer, after the first song came and scooted one of the speakers so it was angled more towards him and he could hear me better. At almost the exact same time my girlfriend came and told me that the piano was not loud enough. it sure sounded loud enough on stage, and I’ve gotten used to gauging that with my old amp, so that it never happens – I’m never too loud, and I’m never too soft, at least not usually. 

 

So then I turned both speakers all the way up and my Casio PX5s all the way up. It just wasn’t loud enough. And believe me, we were background music while people were talking, so it’s not like I was trying to overpower the party. But every time I moved one of the speakers, whoever could hear it before started having problems after I moved it. 

 

I was remembering how brilliant I thought Aspen Pittman was when he invented the space station. Because it was tri directional, my band mates on stage never had a problem hearing me (and in close quarters,  it was often too loud for them ) and the people out in front got a big full sound. When someone was playing my SS3 rig, the sound was better the further I moved from the amp including to the back of the room. I’m not sure why i didn’t expect it to be so different but I was overall disappointed. With the SS3, running it through the house PA was always just an option and always just for a little fill. Tonight it was a necessity and because the mixer for this outdoor birthday party with about 60 people was a tiny one, all we could do was take the output of one speaker and plug it into the system which felt crazy and unbalanced to me. 

 

did I put them up on poles? No, because I didn’t think I would need to so I didn’t bring them. If I get another gig in the next couple of days, I will do that, but I’m still going to have the problem of how directional traditional speakers are. I’m used to filling up a room. Just felt… Strange to me, and not in a good way. 
 

I don’t know, I just thought I would like to experience more. I’m pretty sure the guys in the band couldn’t hear me very well at all, based on the way they were playing :-).

 

I know this set up works for a lot of you guys, and maybe if I spent a lot more and hired someone to schlep my speakers I could find something that comes closer to what I’m looking for. I do like the way these speakers sound in my home, and they would be terrific for a rehearsal room as long as it wasn’t too big, and if I positioned the speakers so that they worked for most of the people most of the time.  But it sure seems like some of the people are inevitably going to be sitting outside of the zone where they can hear the keys really well, and that’s not a problem I’m used to having.
 

Not sure what I’m going to do, but I’m pretty close to sending them back.

 

 

 

 

[Al Coda]

33 minutes ago, Doug Robinson said:

Alto TS10

 

Which ? TS210, 310 or 410 ?

 

34 minutes ago, Doug Robinson said:

Granted, it was outside, which is never my favorite place to play. No complaints whatsoever about the sound that the speakers re-created. But playing with two separate speakers as opposed to my SS3 was frustrating.

 

AFAIK, the SS3 works best indoor.

I cannot imagine it exceeding a pair of Alto TS310 or 410 in a outdoor situation WHEN using the speakers striktly as YOUR keyboard monitor system, in the position YOU need/want and NOT for the drummer or any member of your band as also not for the audience.

 

In fact today, most musicians don´t use speakers for (bigger) gigs anymore and prefer in-ear monitoring.

For rehearsals and jams, when such monitor system isn´t available, a set of small speakers is welcome.

The Alto TS 3 and 4 series are "bang for the buck" and you find WAY MORE expensive better ones.

A single AP SS3 is $949 meanwhile, which is almost twice as much as a pair of Altos, and now don´t ask for the true hi end active PA speakers prices.

 

 

A.C.

[jmemcse517]

Those Alto speakers have to be on poles. They won't work on the floor.  I want a pair of these - JBL EON One - they run on batteries.

[stoken6]

I would still like to hear how well a pair of conventional speakers, like the Alto, work positioned at 90deg to each other, through a M-S encoder. How much Aspen goodness would that bring?

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

[AnotherScott]

 

2 hours ago, jmemcse517 said:

Those Alto speakers have to be on poles. They won't work on the floor.  

Specs say they are designed for wedge position as well. It depends on the application.

 

4 hours ago, Doug Robinson said:

First, I positioned the speakers in the wedge position

 

Behind you, facing out to the audience? (Just trying to make sure I have the right scenario in my head.)

 

4 hours ago, Doug Robinson said:

then I turned both speakers all the way up and my Casio PX5s all the way up. It just wasn’t loud enough. And believe me, we were background music while people were talking, so it’s not like I was trying to overpower the party. But every time I moved one of the speakers, whoever could hear it before started having problems after I moved it.

 

On poles, the dispersion is 90 degrees horizontal and 60 vertical. Which means when used as wedges, it is the opposite, your throw becomes tall and narrow (basically, ideal to aim from the ground toward one person's head). There will be very little throw to the sides. 

 

(Note that this varies with different designs. The EV ZXa1-90 has a rotatable horn, so you can get either dispersion pattern in either position. The QSC K8.2 has spherical dispersion of 105 degrees in both directions, similar to the more rare EV ZXa1-100. That's not a better or worse design, it's a different trade-off.)

 

So for the purpose at hand, yeah, you should have gone with poles. Not so much for the height (though that's a factor too), but for the dispersion pattern.

 

4 hours ago, Doug Robinson said:

I was remembering how brilliant I thought Aspen Pittman was when he invented the space station.

 

It's a clever design, and again, something that has its own pros and cons. But if that's the effect you want, that's the speaker to use.

 

Though for an alternate approach to a speaker that can provide decent coverage to the player, the band, and the audience, you can also look at the Bose L1 Pro8/16/32. Not stereo (unless you get two), but broad coverage.

[drawback]

6 hours ago, Al Coda said:

Which ? TS210, 310 or 410 ?

Read up a few posts. The 410s.

 

 

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Though for an alternate approach to a speaker that can provide decent coverage to the player, the band, and the audience, you can also look at the Bose L1 Pro8/16/32. Not stereo (unless you get two), but broad coverage.

 

+1 on a line array system, but I’m not sure that would have been the answer outdoors. 

 

[NosPup]

Did you use a mixer between the keys and altos? I find the altos don’t produce much sound unless you use a mixer or similar to bump up your line level going into the alto. 

[CEB]

I have a pair of Alto TS310s.  If you can't hear that then something is wrong.  Do you need a gain stage between the keyboards and the cabs?  What are the gain levels on your mixer?

[Reezekeys]

14 hours ago, Doug Robinson said:

So then I turned both speakers all the way up and my Casio PX5s all the way up. It just wasn’t loud enough.

 

Something sounds wrong here. On my Altos, turning the input volume all the way up is for using with mic level signals - a keyboard turned all the way up going into that would blow my speakers up - it would be super loud.

 

As far as the other issues, it sounds like you might need to experiment with placement. Mine are vertical, not in their wedge position, in back of me on either side, on small folding footstool stands that raise them about 8 - 10" above the ground. I'm on the side of the stage, angled in a bit. The idea is for the speakers to cover me, the bandstand, then as much of the audience as possible. The speakers' horns, being below my ear level and not pointed upwards towards me (as they would be in wedge orientation) means I can push them louder without blasting my ears - which gets more sound out onto the bandstand and the room. It's always going to be a compromise - but I try to make sure I'm comfortable and can hear myself correctly with everyone else. I've been doing it this way for years and have rarely heard anyone tell me my keys were too loud or too soft. Good luck!

[JohnDoe]

9 hours ago, stoken6 said:

I would still like to hear how well a pair of conventional speakers, like the Alto, work positioned at 90deg to each other, through a M-S encoder. How much Aspen goodness would that bring?

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

What M-S encoder are you refeering to?

[Reezekeys]

6 hours ago, NosPup said:

Did you use a mixer between the keys and altos? I find the altos don’t produce much sound unless you use a mixer or similar to bump up your line level going into the alto. 

 

Which Altos are you talking about? On my TX308s there's only a single input trim control. Turning it clockwise increases the input sensitivity to where it can work with mic level signals. I can easily drive my Altos to full power and more with this control, directly from the headphone output of my i-device or laptop. I can't imagine the line out from a keyboard not able to do the same.

[Reezekeys]

9 hours ago, stoken6 said:

I would still like to hear how well a pair of conventional speakers, like the Alto, work positioned at 90deg to each other, through a M-S encoder. How much Aspen goodness would that bring?

 

Won't work, because the side-firing speaker has to have an open-back design - you want sound coming out both sides that's 180 degrees out of phase, which happens by default in the SS since the speaker cone is pushing air out one side while it's pulling on the other!

[D. Gauss]

re: volume. you need to be sending a +4 level signal to the Altos. That typically would be the balanced XLR out if your keyboard has one (yammie CP88 for example).  Otherwise if they are 1/4" unbalanced out, they are most likely at -10db level (sometimes higher), then you'll need another gain stage via a small mixer or line driver.  Headphone jacks are at speaker level which is a whole 'nuther thing and can easily overdrive/distort another downstream input without careful gain staging.

 

re: coverage. assuming you're in mono, you could always buy a 3rd speaker set them up in a tight cluster with one facing forwards, one off-axis left and one off-axis right.  seems like overkill, but pretty sure folks will hear you.

[NosPup]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Which Altos are you talking about? On my TX308s there's only a single input trim control. Turning it clockwise increases the input sensitivity to where it can work with mic level signals. I can easily drive my Altos to full power and more with this control, directly from the headphone output of my i-device or laptop. I can't imagine the line out from a keyboard not able to do the same.

Ts308 for me. I can’t keep up with rock drums and 2 guitars without going through a mixer to send the Alto a hotter signal.