Kurz PC-4

[CEB]

I hope this action doesn't suck.... At least there are velocity and after-touch global editing.   I would have probably preferred a MP7se but I bought it for the weight.  Getting old sucks but it is better than the alternative.  

 

I didn't get any pedals.  I never owned a Kurz.  I probably have to buy something proprietary.  ... More money.  😢

 

[Skinny]

I’ve always wanted a Kurz. Something about them just seems… alluring?

 

Hope it works out for you!

[ITGITC]

CEB,

 

I have three Kurzweil units.  Still love 'em!

 

The PC-4 can use a half-damper sustain pedal.  Kurzweil PC4 Getting Started Guide states:

 

Continuous Switch Pedals (Half-Damper)

 

The SW1 (SUSTAIN) jack is also compatible with continuous switch pedals (Half-Damper) that use a 1/4 inch tip-ring-sleeve plug (such as the Kurzweil KP-1H). When connected to the SW1 (SUSTAIN) jack, a Half Damper pedal enables finer control of Sustain than a standard switch pedal. Half Damper control is enabled for Programs in the Piano category.  Programs outside of the Piano category will respond to a Half Damper pedal as if it is a standard switch pedal.

---------

 

I haven't tried the action on the PC-4.  Kurzweil describes it as, "RPHA: Real Piano Hammer Action / 88-note, fully-weighted hammer-action with velocity and aftertouch sensitive adjustable keys".  But you're right, it's only 28.7 lb (13.01 kg).

 

I hope you will enjoy it!

 

Tom

 

[ElmerJFudd]

The 8 right?  They gave the 7 a synth action.  

[CEB]

Thanks Tom. That is great to here about pedals.   Thanks again. 

[ITGITC]

20 minutes ago, CEB said:

Thanks Tom. That is great to here about pedals.   Thanks again. 

 

CEB, I updated my response.  I am pretty sure it can use a standard sustain pedal.  However, if you want to use a half-damper pedal, I am uncertain if pedals other than the Kurzweil KP-1H are compatible.  They should be, but I don't know for sure.  Yamaha offers a FC3A Half-Damper pedal.  Perhaps someone here can verify that it works on the PC4.

 

 https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/FC3A--yamaha-fc3a-piano-style-sustain-pedal-with-half-damper-control

 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, ITGITC said:

if you want to use a half-damper pedal, I am uncertain if pedals other than the Kurzweil KP-1H are compatible

Korgs are, Yamahas and Roland are not, according to https://kurzweil.com/2021/07/08/pc4-pedal-compatibility/

[Mighty Motif Max]

The weight is its biggest perk, and orchestral/vintage keys sounds. As far as the action, I really liked it for about the first 8 months or so, then became less fond of it over time. It's certainly not the worst out there for a hammer action - it's not quite like a nice grand either, maybe closer to some upright actions but plastic. I only get annoyed with it when I am playing faster ragtime/jazz pieces and it's just a smidge less responsive/ a touch heavier than I'd like. That and playing pop/disco string & brass lines. It's not as versatile as, say, the Yamaha BH action in the Motif/Montage. But for most things, it's perfectly fine. Definitely better than the TP-100 variants, Korg NH action, and Roland PHA-4 Standard. I wouldn't necessarily rate it higher than the Yamaha GHS - different feels, more like (GHS is quicker, PC4 is more substantial feeling).

[ITGITC]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Korgs are, Yamahas and Roland are not, according to https://kurzweil.com/2021/07/08/pc4-pedal-compatibility/

 

Thanks Scott.  It was late last night.  I was tired.  I didn't get this far in the PC4 documentation.

 

Tom

 

[Delaware Dave]

If you use an expression pedal it has to be of Roland logic (like the EV-5 or EV-7); Yamaha expression pedals like the FC-7 will require the Ashby converter or one of these:

 

link  connected to one of these    link   flipping the red and black, meaning plugging the red to the black rather than red to red and black to black.

[CEB]

Thanks a lot everyone. My pedal case currently has a Korg DS-1H , Yamaha FC7 and a Moog EP3.  I have other stuff laying around.  
 

The Chris Martirano demos sure sound nice. 
 

The thing that shocked me was case prices. I have not bought anything since pre-COVID. Case prices has gotten serious. 
 

Thanks again. 

[Al Coda]

2 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

If you use an expression pedal it has to be of Roland logic (like the EV-5 or EV-7); Yamaha expression pedals like the FC-7 will require the Ashby converter or one of these:

 

link  connected to one of these    link   flipping the red and black, meaning plugging the red to the black rather than red to red and black to black.

 

Fatar/Studiologic VP-25 works w/ Kurz,- it´s identical w/ the orig. Kurzweil expression pedal and is only 49.- bucks.

I have 2 since many years and for my PC361.

In opposite to other users reports, mine never crapped out,- same rules for my EV-5 which I used since the 90s on several tours and countless gigs.

It also still works.

When not thrown around and clever packed in your cable-flightcase, they don´t fail until the pot is worn out or the cable is broken.

 

 

A.C.

[Mighty Motif Max]

I use a Moog EP-3 with my PC4 and it’s great.

[Delaware Dave]

1 hour ago, Al Coda said:

 

Fatar/Studiologic VP-25 works w/ Kurz,- it´s identical w/ the orig. Kurzweil expression pedal and is only 49.- bucks.

I have 2 since many years and for my PC361.

In opposite to other users reports, mine never crapped out,- same rules for my EV-5 which I used since the 90s on several tours and countless gigs.

It also still works.

When not thrown around and clever packed in your cable-flightcase, they don´t fail until the pot is worn out or the cable is broken.

 

 

A.C.

That VP25's throw doesn't seem to be that long which is why I would not have any use for it.  I would like to try the FP-50 though, that throw seems to be longer and more suitable.  I use to use an FC7 with an Ashby adapter, loved the long throw but for some reason it started to cause my PC3 to reboot when I depressed it.  I then moved to the Roland EV-7, now discontinued, and it has a similar long throw like the FC7.  Since it is Roland logic no Ashby adapter needed for my Kurz. Not one issue. Highly recommended if you can find one .....

[Synthaholic]

I highly recommend downloading the free sounds from Purgatory Creek. At least the electric guitars. I'm not a fan of the Framber acoustic guitars at all, but you may like them. You can try them, then delete them (or just listen to the demos), but I don't think they really add anything useful. I find there's a lot of guitar body noise, and I'm happy enough with the Kurz acoustics. But the electrics are fantastic. A few of them bend up to the note with a higher velocity. I've adjusted velocities downward within a MULTI so that it's easier to control the pitch bend, and not set it off accidentally. If I get time at a gig I'll record my version of the old Ray Price hit 'Heartaches By The Numbers' where I use it in the solo. It's a lot of fun to play.

 

They also offer a free London Piano and Fender Rhodes Mark II, but I'm happy with the stock Kurz PROGRAMS, and I'm trying to conserve Flash Memory space.

 

Jensen Guitar Collection – Forte – Purgatory Creek Soundware https://www.purgatorycreek.com/index.php/jensen-guitar-collection-forte/

 

 

EDIT TO ADD:  The Framber guitars sound great in the demo, and would be nice for recording, but they don't sound good to me live. They lose something and don't sound "full". It may just be me.  

[Fleer]

4 minutes ago, Synthaholic said:

I highly recommend downloading the free sounds from Purgatory Creek. At least the electric guitars. I'm not a fan of the Framber acoustic guitars at all, but you may like them. You can try them, then delete them (or just listen to the demos), but I don't think they really add anything useful. I find there's a lot of guitar body noise, and I'm happy enough with the Kurz acoustics. But the electrics are fantastic. A few of them bend up to the note with a higher velocity. I've adjusted velocities downward within a MULTI so that it's easier to control the pitch bend, and not set it off accidentally. If I get time at a gig I'll record my version of the old Ray Price hit 'Heartaches By The Numbers' where I use it in the solo. It's a lot of fun to play.

 

They also offer a free London Piano and Fender Rhodes Mark II, but I'm happy with the stock Kurz PROGRAMS, and I'm trying to conserve Flash Memory space.

 

Jensen Guitar Collection – Forte – Purgatory Creek Soundware

And get the Purgatory Creek keyboard bundle. Absolutely marvelous. 

[Synthaholic]

6 minutes ago, Fleer said:

And get the Purgatory Creek keyboard bundle. Absolutely marvelous. 

Do you mean the Vintage Keyboard Collection? All the demos sound fantastic, but again, with only 2GB to play with I'm picky. I really have no issues with the stock PC4 EPs and Clavinets. I rarely play clav any longer, unfortunately. The only song I play it on these days is Prince's 'Cream'. And I tend to default to the Kurz Suitcase EP, which I think sounds great, although you have to watch your velocities.

[Mighty Motif Max]

24 minutes ago, Synthaholic said:

They also offer a free London Piano and Fender Rhodes Mark II, but I'm happy with the stock Kurz PROGRAMS, and I'm trying to conserve Flash Memory space.

That MKII Rhodes is my favorite Rhodes sample of all time - the fact that isn’t available for the MODX/Montage version of VKC (I mean, it’s separate from VKC, but still...) is one of the factors making me keep the PC4 actually. It’s really good.

 

I second the suggestion of the Jensen Guitars. Also the Wuri in the VKC is excellent, and much better than the stock samples IMO. The D6 gives you the other two missing pickup combinations that aren’t in the stock soundset as well. Those three (MKII, Wurli, D6) plus the Jensen Guitars will round out most of the weak spots in the PC4, other than electric basses (you may have luck manually mapping waveforms from the old Bass Gallery library, but that is time consuming).

 

I would also suggest looking at the Epic Grand that K-Sounds has for the PC3 if you want a more rock-oriented/thinner piano than you can get out of the stock samples. It’s definitely not my pick for solo piano and it’s just a very specific type of piano sound, but I could see it being great in a rock mix.

[Synthaholic]

5 minutes ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

That MKII Rhodes is my favorite Rhodes sample of all time

I just listened to the demo again. It's so spot on I may have to sacrifice the 237MB to try it out. I'm curious how it sounds with phase shifter applied. And it may be a better fit for the Bob James and Dan Siegel songs I do.  

[Synthaholic]

As a side note, I'd like to delete the Jenson Acoustic Guitars, but as more of an end user than a Kurzweil nuts and bolts user, I'm not sure what the proper procedure is for deleting PROGRAMS and SAMPLES. Since I'm not using any of them in any songs, any MULTIS, deleting them won't affect anything I'm doing, but I don't know for sure how to do it. Any easy instructions?

[pawelsz]

Global, Objects page, mark the programs you want to delete, options, add deps (dependent objects like keymaps, FX chains). Then delete. For some reason samples won't automatically add to delete as deps. You need to delete samples manually. Or I don't know something. 

 

You can check page 9-27 (322) in manual. 

[Moonglow]

I gigged with a PC-3x for several years. I especially enjoyed the vintage programs. I could not connect with the action on the PC-4, but of course, that’s a personal preference thing. I very much liked the newer Kurzweil pianos. I hope it works out well for you.

[Synthaholic]

3 hours ago, pawelsz said:

Global, Objects page, mark the programs you want to delete, options, add deps (dependent objects like keymaps, FX chains). Then delete. For some reason samples won't automatically add to delete as deps. You need to delete samples manually. Or I don't know something. 

 

You can check page 9-27 (322) in manual. 

Yeah, see that's why I hesitate before doing anything under the hood. It's so convoluted that I just procrastinate on doing anything like this for fear of screwing something up that I won't find out about until further down the road. I should be able to just call up the Framus guitar PROGRAM, delete it, and have all samples and associated keymaps, etc. be deleted along with it. Why would you keep keymaps and FX chains on the board for a PROGRAM that's been deleted, right? Thanks for getting me on the right path, @pawelsz.

[pawelsz]

17 hours ago, Synthaholic said:

Yeah, see that's why I hesitate before doing anything under the hood. It's so convoluted that I just procrastinate on doing anything like this for fear of screwing something up that I won't find out about until further down the road. I should be able to just call up the Framus guitar PROGRAM, delete it, and have all samples and associated keymaps, etc. be deleted along with it. Why would you keep keymaps and FX chains on the board for a PROGRAM that's been deleted, right? Thanks for getting me on the right path, @pawelsz.

 

Because other programs could use same keymap or any other kind of object. Even in those packs you have multiple programs using same fx chain or same sample set.

If everything will be packed in one object, every program should contain all its samples kemaps and fx chains. That would take much more memory.

[bfields]

1 hour ago, pawelsz said:

 

Because other programs could use same keymap or any other kind of object. Even in those packs you have multiple programs using same fx chain or same sample set.

If everything will be packed in one object, every program should contain all its samples kemaps and fx chains. That would take much more memory.

Well, if you wanted to give the illusion that each program bundles all its own resources, without unnecessary memory use, you could use reference counts.  So: when a program is loaded that bundles an already-loaded resource, you increment a reference counter on that resource.  You decrement that counter when a program using the resource is unloaded, and delete the object when the counter goes to zero.  If you want to allow bundled resources to be modified, then you make a copy (and take the memory hit) at the time of modification.

 

It's too late to do that for Kurzweil to do that, I guess, as users already expect to be able to create keymaps and stuff before creating the program that uses it, and to delete programs without losing referenced resources.

[pawelsz]

 

 

@bfields This is from PC3K manual, page 263. Anybody could confirm if it works same for Forte/PC4/K2700? It's not described that detailed in newer manuals.

 

EDIT: or I can simulate this and check by myself

EDIT 2: Seems PC4 doesn't ask me "Delete dependent objects?" and deletes added deps even if they are deps for another object. I created two programs using same fx chain and when I deleted first program with its dependent fx chain, that fx chain was deleted even when there is a 2nd program that uses same fx chain. So looks it is simple. 

But at the same time PC4 asks me sometimes if store dependent objects and if load dependent objects. 

 

[Sundown]

I don't think you'll be disappointed with a Kurzweil ... If you're not a fan at the outset they will grow on you and you'll be hooked. I don't know a more customizable (or deep) instrument. Pretty much any button or function can be reprogrammed in ways that other instruments simply can't match and there are details in the interface that just make a lot of sense (for example, real units for parameters such as Hertz, cents, milliseconds, etc). 

 

Full disclosure, I haven't played a PC4 or K2700 but I own AnotherScott's old PC361 with a ribbon controller and it's practically the center of my studio rig. It was intended to be a 61-key MIDI controller to replace my original, dead Korg WS but after playing the Kurz, it's mission in my rig changed really quick. 

 

I'd love a modern Kurzweil but I don't want another weighted board. My Kawai MP11 fulfills that role just fine. If they did a 61-key synth or a rack mount of the PC4 or K2700 I would make the leap.

 

P.S. Also full disclosure, I jonesed hard for a K2500 when they first came out in the 90's and I liked the K2000 as well. So when Scott offered me his PC361 for a good price, it was fulfillment of a dream. The price of a K2500 for me in the nineties was completely out of reach.

 

Todd

[CEB]

Cool. It came with a pedal. 

[CEB]

I picked up the PC4 from the Fed Ex store and went straight to rehearsal. Went full virgin straight out of the box.  I laid the old S90XS on the floor and plugged in the PC4. I quit playing music for the most part three weeks ago. I play with a blues combo and they rehearsed yesterday.  All I need is a piano, a Rhodes, a Clav for one tune and strings for a Gary Moore tune.  
 

Taking the PC4 out of the box the keys felt unweighted for some reason but when I turned on the board the action was heavy.   I adjusted the velocity curves to what worked okay. 

 

First new board since the MP-5 where I didn’t hate the pianos out of the box. The factory sounds are good.  The action is stiffer than I expected.  I don’t love the action but I don’t hate it ( I usually hate new unfamiliar actions). I need to read the manual and learn how sound and patch control works and how edit EQ and effects.  The setup my favorites… however that is done. Mostly I need to play the hell out of it and get married to the action. That should take about a week.  
 

So far the Pros are : Weight and Sounds.   The Cons: lack of free top space to lay crap on.  

 

[SMcD]

Stiffer action than you expected, eh? Do you happen to know how it compares to the Kurzweil PC3? I have a PC3LE8 and I'm thinking of upgrading to a PC4 this year; I assume the LE8 had the same action as its big brother and want to know how they compare.

 

I heard the PC4 action isn't too bad for synths, so I was hoping that'd mean it wasn't too heavy. I prefer a bit of lightness in my piano action - for instance, I find the Yamaha CP4 almost unplayable. Hopefully it's not as stiff as that one?