Better Lightweight Digital Stage Piano Vs. Yamaha MODX8+

[Polkahero]

This is probably another witch hunt, but I'm wondering if there are any better lightweight stage piano options out there vs. my current Yamaha MODX8+.  It's just "okay" for my solo acoustic piano gigs, I've tried numerous piano libraries and still think the Bosendorfer is the best sounding option but there's certain notes around Middle C and the octave above that just don't sound right.  I do like all of the other sound options in the MODX for other types of gigs but the majority of my current performances are for solo piano.  Is there anything else out there that is:

 

• Lightweight (less than 35 pounds)
• Better action than the MODX (it's a bit on the sluggish side)
• Better sounding acoustic piano (I know this is very subjective)

 

Polyphony also seems limited at 128 for the MODX, I can hear notes dropping out when I'm playing more complicated pieces with lots of sustained pedal notes.

 

So far I've checked out reviews on the Kawai ES120 and Roland FP-30X, both seem pretty decent for the price.  Kawai sounds really bright to my ears, I usually prefer a rounder sound for solo stuff.  Not looking to spend the kind of money on a Nord Grand which is a little too heavy anyways.  Any other models I should check out?

[AnotherScott]

I'd look at the Kawai ES520. At least on paper, it has better action and sound than the ES120 you mentioned, though I haven't played either one of them. Just in general, when I did a thorough DP comparison some years back, Kawai and Nord were the only brands that I felt had better piano sounds than Yamaha (though all three companies have updated their piano sounds since then). I'm not saying that I found all Kawai and Nord piano sounds to be better than Yamaha's, but I did find their best sounds to be better, to my ears.

 

Also, if you can get by with 73 keys, there's the 73 version of the Nord Piano 5 that could meet your requirements.

 

40 minutes ago, Polkahero said:

Not looking to spend the kind of money on a Nord Grand which is a little too heavy anyways.  

The ones I mentioned are pricier than the Kawai and Roland you mentioned, but still well below Nord Grand territory (and in terms of sound, the Nord Piano 5 still gets you Nord Grand sounds, at its lower price and weight).

[Viv Savage]

I shared some of your frustrations and have been pretty happy switching to MODX7 and using the Kawai ES110 as a controller.  It’s about 26 lb and while I can’t speak to its use for solo piano, the sounds seem decent and the keybed is a pretty big improvement over MODX8 for my purposes.  Because the ES110 has 5-pin MIDI, I can use it to play the MODX and simultaneously use the MODX to play iOS sounds on (such as VB3 or B-3x).   I have been using the Midiflow app on iOS to re-route MIDI channels.  The upshot of this is that even though the Kawai is sending only on Channel 1, I can have the Kawai play whichever MODX parts I want, on a per-song basis.  But by default I have it playing MODX parts 9-16, which is great, it’s like having another MODX at my fingertips, and I can divide  the MODX sounds between the two boards however I’d like — you know, just as if Yamaha had implemented freely assignable MIDI receive channels! 😉 

[Ibarch]

You could look at the Roland RD-88. Has more performance oriented controls and effects than the FP-30X. 

 

The acoustic pianos are not as strong as the Kawai in my opinion and the action isn't quite as good. But I chose it as the better gigging option as many more sounds, Zen core, just 29lbs weight and a very competitive price. 

[ElmerJFudd]

How lightweight?  Because all the designs that shave weight do so at the expense of how they feel to play for piano players. 
 

You’ll want to try Yamaha CP4 or CP88.  The CP4 is lighter the CP88 is compact carry.  Kawai ES8, the ES120 is lighter.  There are newer ES models - 520, 920 worth a try.  You can try Korg Grandstage (I don’t think it plays much better than the MODX8, opinion).  SV2 (without speakers) is nice, but it’s not light, although there’s a 73k version that shaves about 10lbs.  

[cphollis]

My answer to your situation was the NP 5 73 at 34 lbs.  It's one of the better Fatar actions (plays better than most IMHO).  I don't miss the extra keys one bit.  Dual piano engines with great samples, plus all the usual sample synth stuff which I find very usable in context.   Lots of other choices, this one worked for me!

[Polkahero]

Thanks for the suggestions, 73 keys isn't an option as I need the entire range of the keyboard.

 

I used to own an original Kawai MP7 model which wasn't bad albeit too heavy at 47 pounds.  Do these newer Kawais have better acoustic piano samples?

[CEB]

Get the Kurzweil PC4 because it is lightweight and I bought one. Because misery likes company. 

[dbran]

On 1/30/2023 at 12:22 PM, Viv Savage said:

I shared some of your frustrations and have been pretty happy switching to MODX7 and using the Kawai ES110 as a controller.  It’s about 26 lb and while I can’t speak to its use for solo piano, the sounds seem decent and the keybed is a pretty big improvement over MODX8 for my purposes.  Because the ES110 has 5-pin MIDI, I can use it to play the MODX and simultaneously use the MODX to play iOS sounds on (such as VB3 or B-3x).   I have been using the Midiflow app on iOS to re-route MIDI channels.  The upshot of this is that even though the Kawai is sending only on Channel 1, I can have the Kawai play whichever MODX parts I want, on a per-song basis.  But by default I have it playing MODX parts 9-16, which is great, it’s like having another MODX at my fingertips, and I can divide  the MODX sounds between the two boards however I’d like — you know, just as if Yamaha had implemented freely assignable MIDI receive channels! 😉 

Hey Viv, not to derail this thread too much I hope, but... could elaborate as to how exactly you are making the MIDI connections you describe here? As I understand it, the MODX7 cannot use MIDI on both the 5-pin DIN port and the USB port at the same time, you have to choose one or the other. So.. how are you wiring these three things together? I ask because I'm interested in doing something similar with my MODX7 and another lower board, and an iPad Pro (which has a USB-C port). Thanks!

[ElmerJFudd]

8 hours ago, Polkahero said:

Thanks for the suggestions, 73 keys isn't an option as I need the entire range of the keyboard.

 

I used to own an original Kawai MP7 model which wasn't bad albeit too heavy at 47 pounds.  Do these newer Kawais have better acoustic piano samples?

ES520 audio demos 

 

[Viv Savage]

3 hours ago, dbran said:

Hey Viv, not to derail this thread too much I hope, but... could elaborate as to how exactly you are making the MIDI connections you describe here? As I understand it, the MODX7 cannot use MIDI on both the 5-pin DIN port and the USB port at the same time, you have to choose one or the other. So.. how are you wiring these three things together? I ask because I'm interested in doing something similar with my MODX7 and another lower board, and an iPad Pro (which has a USB-C port). Thanks!

Actually it turns out you can use both USB and DIN MIDI simultaneously.  It involves re-directing the controller keyboard data from MODX MIDI Port 3 (used for the DIN connection) to MODX MIDI Port 1 (the MODX internal tone generator), using the iOS or computer app of your choice.  I use the Midiflow app to do this.  Then use 5-pin MIDI to connect the controller MIDI out to MODX MIDI in, set MODX to MIDI USB mode, and connect your iOS device to MODX via USB.     So I think the MIDI flows from your controller to MODX, which sends it out to the iOS device, where it it re-rerouted back to the MODX tone generator. 

[dbran]

Wow, thanks Viv. Incredibly useful if I can get that to work! Much appreciated!

[Radagast]

If you want lightweight, it’s hard to beat the Korg Liano.  Of course it has the dreaded harpsichord sound.  It’s under 14 lbs.

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

14lbs.  Wow, that’s light weight.  And I’m sure they’re not using titanium or carbon fiber.  (A0-C8) LS keyboard (velocity-compatible).  I can only imagine how it feels to play.  😵‍

[Reezekeys]

The burning question I have: why do all these (or many of these) low-cost lightweight boards have a pipe organ sound? Does every mfr's market research tell them this sound is in high demand by... who exactly? I ask this question more rhetorically, and don't expect anyone to know the answer; it's just destined to be one of life's mysteries I guess.

 

I will say that the acoustic piano and rhodes of this Korg is serviceable, just in terms of what I hear on this video - and the weight, well that's right up my alley for sure! Maybe I'll see one of these in the wild some day. I do fine playing piano with a synth action, as long as the keys have enough spring and no lateral play like some of the ultra-cheap ones do.

[Threadslayer]

3 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

The burning question I have: why do all these (or many of these) low-cost lightweight boards have a pipe organ sound? Does every mfr's market research tell them this sound is in high demand by... who exactly?

It's just the thing for Halloween gigs. Who among us hasn't channeled their inner Lon Chaney?

[wd8dky]

Anyone who plays in a more traditional Church setting will use the pipe organ, trust me. 

[Radagast]

11 minutes ago, Threadslayer said:

It's just the thing for Halloween gigs. Who among us hasn't channeled their inner Lon Chaney?

There’s also churches that would like to have a good pipe organ sound without the six figure price tag for a digital organ.  And there are some bands that do covers of progressive rock tunes.  

[stoken6]

USB MIDI only. Nothing (for me) to see here.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

The thing that kills the Liano for me as a super-light 88/bottom, even beyond the lack of 5-pin (irritating, but understandable in entry models these days) is that the sound palette is so limited, even just from a basic piano perspective. No Wurli sound, no way to put a pad or strings behind the piano. The Numa Compact 2 is SO much more capable, and not much heavier (15.6 lbs). Lots more sounds, 5-pin MIDI, split/layer, pitch/mod controls, 1/4" outs, MIDI zones, aftertouch. Of course, it's $529 vs. $329. And the Liano keys may feel better, and/or it's speakers may be beefier.

[Reezekeys]

Points taken but for me, having an iOS rig that I'm happy with means I can easily deal with a USB-only keyboard – I'd most likely be bringing an iPad anyway, if just to read charts. And I'd be fine with just a decent acoustic & rhodes piano, probably wouldn't ever use any other built-in sounds. The i-device acous. & rhodes sounds I have are likely better anyway; this Liano (or similar keyboard) rhodes & acoustic would probably be for emergencies or if I'm feeling particularly lazy, or have a quick outdoor wedding ceremony where sound quality isn't that important. Inexpensive, light, and "good-enough" keybed is what I'm going for.

[AnotherScott]

21 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

or have a quick outdoor wedding ceremony where sound quality isn't that important. Inexpensive, light, and "good-enough" keybed is what I'm going for.

 

Yes, if you just need something for wedding ceremony/cocktail hour, and all you need is a piano sound, then the lightest/cheapest thing with a playable action and loud enough speakers could be just the ticket.

 

Though at that point, you might also consider whether you actually need 88 keys, because if not, other options open up which might even be cheaper and lighter, like the Casio CT-S1. I wonder how that action and sound/speakers compare to the Liano.

[stoken6]

5 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Though at that point, you might also consider whether you actually need 88 keys, because if not, other options open up which might even be cheaper and lighter, like the Casio CT-S1. I wonder how that action and sound/speakers compare to the Liano.

Yamaha NP12 for 61 keys, NP32 for 76 keys. Very little competition in the "non-hammer <88key stage piano"  space.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Reezekeys]

3 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Though at that point, you might also consider whether you actually need 88 keys, because if not, other options open up which might even be cheaper and lighter, like the Casio CT-S1.

 

I've never really needed 88 keys - I'm just curious how it would feel to play some gigs with 88 keys! My current setup of a 61-key 10 lb. Roland A800 with my iPad or iPhone, and my new Alto TX308s (2x 12 lbs) is plenty light enough, I'm all set there. If & when I get an 88-key keyboard, it's still gonna have to be light. The Numa Compact 2 or 2x is something I'm looking at for sure, but given what I've already said about my i-device setup, it's possible that one of these Liano-type boards would suit me fine, and they're about half the price of the NC, I think.

[pinkfloydcramer]

I bought a used Kawai ES920, returned it when it died after a few days. The action was good for a stage piano but IMO not as realistic (due to shallower key dip) as that of my ES110, other than being slightly heavier (key weight wise). My personal preference, which may differ from most here as I had heard good things about the ES8 action- AFAIK the same as the 920. My gold standard for hammer action is that of my Yamaha YC88, but the ES110 punches above it's weight for how light and relatively inexpensive it is. I just wish it was a tad heavier.

 

RE 73 keys, that's a sore point with me- and now you people are going to hear about it: 73-key boards are only E to E for the purpose of sucking up to Guitar World. Why should the function of the instruments with which we express ourselves, be dictated to us by disturbed people who seem to think that a block of wood with pickups and strings, is an extension of their penis? Except for Kiru, of course..and also of course, biological female axe slingers, who seem to have a different attitude.

 

C to shining C makes more sense for me. From where I stand, nothing is lost by being able to use a couple of keys below E. And what is gained, is being better able to play all the funk and NOLA tunes that are in Eb. Not to mention all the music written in C. C to C would also be of benefit to the transpose button enthusiasts, who play everything in C. They need products too, bless their hearts!

[Kawai James]

Hello Polkahero,

 

On 1/31/2023 at 1:26 AM, Polkahero said:

So far I've checked out reviews on the Kawai ES120 and Roland FP-30X, both seem pretty decent for the price.  Kawai sounds really bright to my ears, I usually prefer a rounder sound for solo stuff.

 

May I ask which ES120 reviews you have watched so far?

 

The quality of sound heard in review videos can vary a fair bit depending on how the instrument was connected and recorded (as well as the EQ settings used etc.).  Tony from Bonners in the UK always does a good job of reviewing and playing digital pianos and stage pianos etc.  Their ES120 video was uploaded a couple of weeks ago, so you may have caught it already, however I'll link it below just in case (acoustic piano demos from 2:50):
 

 

There are also some ES120 classical piano demos on Kawai Global site (I recorded these from the Line Outs), here:
https://www.kawai-global.com/product/es120/#sound  (scroll down a little to get to the SoundCloud playlist)

 

On 2/2/2023 at 3:23 AM, Polkahero said:

I used to own an original Kawai MP7 model which wasn't bad albeit too heavy at 47 pounds.  Do these newer Kawais have better acoustic piano samples?

The MP7's acoustic piano sounds were based on the Kawai EX concert grand sample.  The ES120 features the newer SK-EX samples, in addition to the ES110's EX, as well as the K-60 upright piano sample and some others.

 

Cheers,

James

x

[AUSSIEKEYS]

11 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

The thing that kills the Liano for me as a super-light 88/bottom, even beyond the lack of 5-pin  The Numa Compact 2 is SO much more capable, and not much heavier (15.6 lbs). Lots more sounds, 5-pin MIDI, split/layer, pitch/mod controls, 1/4" outs, MIDI zones, aftertouch.

 

Scott. Even though i had been waiting for the Llano to try as a bottom boaed i ruled it it out as it has no midi dins. What is it with modern manufacturers. Bah humbug.

 

I too thought the Numa is the way so instead i just bought a used but imacculate as new Numa Cocal 2x in a beautiful casio bag off one of our fellow Aussie forumites (great guy). Spent hours talking and enjoying his recordings. My wife even left me undisturbed while she her mom and sister enjoyed the local town cafe while the music talk was going on.

 

The Numa was a 6 hour drive to a lovely sea side town. So the 2X in the name must mean 2 great things in one trip one getting the 2x and secondly by coincidence time wise we were going near his house to visit my wife's elderly mother who covered our first holiday in 10 years. I could play the Numa overlooking a lovely seaside lake she had rented. LOVELY. Cant beat that for a purchase and its first run through.

 

This Numa is for any future gigs when or if I go back to actual band gigging. (Wont do that till We move house) but Im feeling  good about the Numa and my dream is to put a Korg Kross on top. 

 

My last acoustic piano solo gig paid for the Numa otherwise I couldnt afford or justify to spend till we downsize our house. Another lucky coincidence lined up.

 

Its a great board and feels like my old Roland A30 which was what I was hoping for in a semi weight. Its piano playable for band gigs (on hard setting) although till i get used to it Id still use my Casio PX330 for solo gigs where my singing is only supported by the weighted feeling piano. Although with enough practise that would probably change as Im feeling good about it so far.

 

Due to actually getting our house ready to market I dont have as much time to get much playing on it but I do have it sitting above my wooden keyed Kawai Mp9500 and play both off against one and other and finding the Numa coming up as a good compromise for band work.

 

There is of coarse things i dont like the volume knob on the right. A big mistake and no seamless sound switching. But I can cope with or address some limitations later. 

 

This so far is great board for those who want an incredibly lightweight board.

 

I was going to write a thread about it but this will help some untill i can put one up once moving house is over or time is more forthcoming.

 

So its worth looking at. If you like the semi weight feel of the old roland A30, A35 or the next model youll be pleased. I was.

 

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

8 hours ago, Kawai James said:

The MP7's acoustic piano sounds were based on the Kawai EX concert grand sample.  The ES120 features the newer SK-EX samples, in addition to the ES110's EX, as well as the K-60 upright piano sample and some others.

 

James, do you happen to know which (if any) current portable models include the piano sounds of the MP10?

 

 

[Radagast]

How about Nux pianos?

 

https://www.nuxefx.com/digital-pianos.html

 

 

[Kawai James]

23 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

James, do you happen to know which (if any) current portable models include the piano sounds of the MP10?

 

The MP10 uses the EX concert grand sample sets.  However, it's the "Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging" sound engine (which was also used on the CA63/CA93 from the same period) which only lasted a single generation, and is therefore not found in any of Kawai's current portable models.  The closest would probably be the ES920, which uses the superior "Harmonic Imaging XL" version of the EX, but that also has more advanced Virtual Technician parameters with better resonance modelling etc.

 

I hope that helps a little.

 

Cheers,

James

x