Was Vangelis the most well known user of the Yamaha CS80?

[AnotherScott]

20 hours ago, Bill H. said:

Just for fun I've been asking people this morning if they know who Vangelis is. 

 

So far we're 0 for 5. 

 

But they all know who Paul McCartney is. So based on my very limited poll, I'd say that Vangelis is not the most well known user of the CS80. 

 

First ask people if they know what a CS-80 is. Then from among THAT group, ask who they consider the most well known user. Vangelis probably beats Sir Paul on that one. :-)

[Outkaster]

19 hours ago, Mills Dude said:

I guess some old farts, like me, would remember the Chariots of Fire soundtrack.  The theme was actually a hit and got pretty big radio airplay in the day in addition to winning the Oscar.  Blade Runner is a bit more obscure but still has a ton of recognition, perhaps more than CoF today.  When's the last time anybody watched CoF?

 

Being a prog head, my favorite user of the CS80 is Eddie Jobson. The UK records and his solo record, Zinc, are a tour-de-force.

 

Maybe more apt on this forum, who's better known, Jobson or Vangelis?  Both are/were reasonably obscure except for keyboard nuts like us.

Wasn't some of that done on a fairlight or whatever?

[Bill H.]

57 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

First ask people if they know what a CS-80 is. Then from among THAT group, ask who they consider the most well known user. Vangelis probably beats Sir Paul on that one. 🙂

Hell I'd be asking people all day just to fine one!  

 

What I did was just for fun, and prompted by Delaware Dave's rather rhetorical question "Who is Vangelis?" So I thought I'd ask around, and see if anyone outside us geeks in this forum knew or remembered him. 

 

Most of the group were people I ran into while shopping that morning, but one was my sister - whom I was texting and a bit of a film aficionado. Her response was spot on and I think appropriate: 

 

Re Vangelis - I think that's a common human flaw - to be exposed to a specific area then assume everyone has that same knowledge - that's why communication can be so darn puzzling at times.

 

 

[Floyd Tatum]

16 hours ago, jerrythek said:

I'm not sure that's right... this synth history from Yamaha themselves say that GX-707 was a prototype name, and it was never released as such.

https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/contents/music_production/synth_40th/history/chapter01/index.html   ????

Thanks, jerry

However .....   Just to be totally nit-picky, I just read the interesting page from your link, and although it does say:

 

Quote

1) In 1973, Yamaha completed development work on a prototype codenamed the GX-707. 

2) As the flagship model in the Electone lineup, however, this prototype was conceived of as a "theatre model" for use on the concert stage. With a console weighing in excess of 300 kg and a separate board required for editing tones, it was not well suited for sale to the general public, and to this day is still considered a niche instrument.

 

, but it doesn't specifically say that it was never released as GX-707 (that I could find).  BTW, the description of GX-707 on that page sounds exactly like a GX-1.

 

Here's an attempt to "read between the lines":  Note that development for GX-707 was completed in 1973, and GX-1 was not released till 1975, that leaves an "unaccounted for" span of 2 years.    Since it also says that it was conceived as a theatre model for use on concert stage, is it conceivable that during 1973-1975, that maybe Yamaha spent those two years sending some 707 prototypes to various Electone competitions around the world to see how people reacted to it, but that they were never released to the public under that name?   This would imply that a few existed, and maybe still exist.

 

I dunno, this is just an exercise in "maybe".... ???

 

(apologies for once again going off-topic)

 

[jerrythek]

6 minutes ago, Floyd Tatum said:

Thanks, jerry

However .....   Just to be totally nit-picky, I just read the interesting page from your link, and although it does say:

 

 

, but it doesn't specifically say that it was never released as GX-707 (that I could find).  BTW, the description of GX-707 on that page sounds exactly like a GX-1.

 

Here's an attempt to "read between the lines":  Note that development for GX-707 was completed in 1973, and GX-1 was not released till 1975, that leaves an "unaccounted for" span of 2 years.    Since it also says that it was conceived as a theatre model for use on concert stage, is it conceivable that during 1973-1975, that maybe Yamaha spent those two years sending some 707 prototypes to various Electone competitions around the world to see how people reacted to it, but that they were never released to the public under that name?   This would imply that a few existed, and maybe still exist.

 

I dunno, this is just an exercise in "maybe".... ???

 

I think your supposition could have been what happened... it makes sense to me. But still exist? That would be interesting, but doesn't seem likely. Never say never, though, right?

[Tusker]

6 hours ago, Bill H. said:

Re Vangelis - I think that's a common human flaw - to be exposed to a specific area then assume everyone has that same knowledge - that's why communication can be so darn puzzling at times.

 

I agree that communication can be difficult at times Bill, especially through this narrow medium of typed text. We've known each other since we discussed peaking filters (!) in the Roland JV/XP synths and how great they are for bass sounds. I think that makes us geeks for sure!   But could there be more to these differences of opinion than simply whether the geeks are engaging in groupthink?

 

The OP posts a question in the thread title. Some of us could focus on these bolded words in the question: Was Vangelis the most well known user of the Yamaha CS80?

 

Others could focus on these bolded words instead: Was Vangelis the most well known user of the Yamaha CS80?

 

Do you think there is a possibility that we have different understandings of the question at hand? Thanks for considering this possibility.

[David Emm]

I think the better question would be "If someone says 'Who is Vangelis?' and you play 'China' for them as an introduction, how do you then properly answer their inevitable query 'How in the HELL is he doing all of that???'" I think it would be a colorful challenge to manage it without having them glaze over. 🤨

[Al Coda]

Alan Pasqua played a CS80 together w/ a Hammond B3 and some MIDI masterkeyboard triggering his rack full of modules like Korg M1R and such,- when I had seen Dan Huff´s "Giant" during a german Frankfurt MI fair long time ago.

 

Alone in germany there were many using a CS80, just because it was the polyphonic 8-voice synth being available w/ a weighted keyboard and poly AT.

Many replaced it w/ the SCI Prophet T8 when it was released.

 

So,- what´s the fuss about the CS80?

I didn´t buy because I didn´t need in the past,- same as Jupiter-4 and -8.

 

Minimoog, Prophet-5, Oberheim OB-8 (later ... Xpander) and DX7mkII FD, was all I needed synthwise,- just because that was a great combination.

Even the Moog Taurus I was "ice on the cake" only.

 

 

A.C.

[jazzpiano88]

I only knew him from the Chariots of Fire movie.   But then my roommate put this on the turntable and I ran screaming and vowed never to listen to him again. 

One thing's for sure, Vangeles can't swing. 

 

[Tusker]

23 minutes ago, Al Coda said:

So,- what´s the fuss about the CS80?

 

It's a great question Al and I can't do justice to it, but if I was to try to answer ... it was a synth with weak filters and adequate oscillators but an unconventional architecture and brilliant performance controls. These caused it to stand out . I think it was better suited to light pop, jazz and cinematic than it was to rock. This is not to slight Jobson, Paich, Porcaro and others who still used it brilliantly.

 

Vangelis invented a new style of cinematic music with it in Blade Runner, but some would argue that Blade Runner is special only because the Lexicon 224 Reverb had arrived to help create cyberpunk. There may be some truth to what Nerdwriter says in his video essay ...

 

 

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, JazzPiano88 said:

I only knew him from the Chariots of Fire movie.   But then my roommate put this on the turntable and I ran screaming and vowed never to listen to him again. 

One thing's for sure, Vangeles can't swing. 

 

I only got part way through before I had to click away. 

If he wants to drown out the vocalists and other soloists, perhaps he should try just a tiny bit harder. I could still sort of hear them... 🤣😘

[Al Coda]

8 hours ago, Tusker said:

it was a synth with weak filters and adequate oscillators but an unconventional architecture and brilliant performance controls. These caused it to stand out . I think it was better suited to light pop, jazz and cinematic than it was to rock. This is not to slight Jobson, Paich, Porcaro and others who still used it brilliantly.

 

 

Yes, in the past I understood it was all about the haptics, ribbon controller and the weighted poly AT action.

But today, in a plugin, animated haptics and action don´t count that much.

And you´re right w/ the filters.

 

Jobson, Paich, Porcaro and many other use almost everything brilliantly they put their hands on and IIRC, the trademark of TOTO´s synth sounds was multiple layers of different synths for almost every poly synth track.

Paich said he liked the CS80´s "french horns",- well ...

He himself as also Sreve Porcaro played and praised everything Yamaha as soon as it was released past to nearly present and as long as TOTO were Yamaha endorsees.

I guess they lost the deal some time ago and now there are NORDs and software only.

 

When I hear people talking about the CS80,- it´s all about 3 patches,- "Alaska°, "Africa brass° and "Bladerunner".

I know the Arturia CS80V and use Memorymoon ME80.

Both nail these sounds well and without doubt it´s possible to nail these patches w/ different plugins too and as long as you own a poly AT keyboard controller and the plugin responds to poly AT.

 

O.k., now we got another CS80 clone from Cherry.

Do you think it sounds significantly better from the other two mentioned above?

 

Really, I prefered to get a ARP Chroma and OB Xpander plugin instead of another CS80,- but that´s only me.

 

 

A.C.

 

[Delaware Dave]

13 hours ago, David Emm said:

"If someone says 'Who is Vangelis?' and you play 'China' for them as an introduction

China?  The only China I know is China Cat Sunflower; Don't remember Brent Mydland ever using a CS-80 to play that.

[jerrythek]

13 hours ago, JazzPiano88 said:

I only knew him from the Chariots of Fire movie.   But then my roommate put this on the turntable and I ran screaming and vowed never to listen to him again. 

One thing's for sure, Vangeles can't swing. 

 

Oh dear, that hasn't aged well... proof that Vangelis was not infallible.

 

 

[CyberGene]

I didn’t know that Vangelis piece. Not typical of him at all but I fail to see what’s wrong with it. There are so many similar bluesy songs. And the sax solo is actually nice 😀

[timwat]

Personally, to my ears that Back To School song (originally from Jon & Vangelis' Mr. Cairo album) sounds like one of those attempts to do blues from folks who haven't steeped their listening in blues. Similar to that occasion when Keith Emerson shared a stage with Oscar Peterson. The notes may be correct, but the heart and the feel isn't.

 

BTW, the sax on that track may have been the great Dick Morrissey.

 

From that Mr. Cairo date, a more representative tune from that period of Vangelis might be State of Independence:

 

 

[Tusker]

9 hours ago, Al Coda said:

Really, I prefered to get a ARP Chroma and OB Xpander plugin instead of another CS80,- but that´s only me.

 

Arturia has a Matrix 12. I haven't tried it out. I'd love to see the Chroma too but I'll need some virtual knobs Al.

 

The Matrix/Expander and Chroma are the mature phase of analog poly synth age. Looking backward we tend to blur them all together, but it's worth remembering that when the CS80 came out there was no Prophet, no Memory Moog, no Jupiter 8. Obie had a two and four voice and that was it. Maybe the eight voice became available around the same time.

 

BTW, I really should have qualified what I said earlier about the CS/GX being not a rocker's synth. It's just a subtle difference but since the high and low pass filters are always active, it's easy to program nasal rather than beefy sounds. There IS a sine wave that comes out directly without passing through the filters, but it's easy to load up the mid-range. You can't overdrive the pristine pre-filter mixer to get some grunt as you would on a Prophet or Moog. However, John Paul Jones can be seen rocking Kashmir on a GX1 at Knebworth so I shouldn't over-generalize.

 

9 hours ago, Al Coda said:

O.k., now we got another CS80 clone from Cherry.

Do you think it sounds significantly better from the other two mentioned above?

 

I haven't tried the Arturia and the Memorymoon. Friends of mine love them. I am loving what Cherry Audio has done here, but I cannot compare. One thing that is special about the GX80 is the GX circuitry, which is NOT in the CS80. The orange sliders below represent extra filters in the oscillator section ...

 

 

You can pinch off the fundamental of the Pulse wave with an HPF and you can BPF the Saw wave before you get to the general filters. I like that sound you get in woodwinds when you bite the reed, the fundamental drops and at the same time you get a bit of flare. This filter arrangement should be good for that sort of expression. I cannot wait to try it out.

 

To me the CS/GX can be likened to the string or woodwind section of an orchestra. Four trombones could blow twenty string players away. It's similar to how one note on a Moog or two notes on an Obie four voice could eat up the mix. But strings create an enveloping rich sound, and the CS/GS pitch instability and complex filtering stages create big rich ensembles which can very sweet, very organic and very compelling. It's more of an ensemble than a solo instrument. That's my take on it.

[Al Coda]

8 hours ago, Tusker said:

17 hours ago, Al Coda said:

Really, I prefered to get a ARP Chroma and OB Xpander plugin instead of another CS80,- but that´s only me.

 

Arturia has a Matrix 12. I haven't tried it out. I'd love to see the Chroma too but I'll need some virtual knobs Al.

 

The Matrix/Expander and Chroma are the mature phase of analog poly synth age.

 

Yes, Arturia Matrix 12 exists.

I checked it out and unfortunately it and most other latest Arturia builds are VERY CPU-hungry.

Already in hardware, I´m fine w/ the Xpander,- never needed the Matrix-12 which just only doubles voices and offers dedicated MOD and DETune pages.

An Arturia Xpander would possibly need only 50% of CPU their Matrix-12 needs and all the Cherry Audio synths I own are way less CPU hungry.

So, I´d prefer to get from C.A. !

 

The 64Bit version of ME80 still sounds on par w/ Arturia CS80V4 and when I compare ´em on my 2.5GHz Intel i7 quad core laptop,- both in standalone mode,- Arturia costs 48% CPU w/ 7 voices and ME80,- which I made "standalone" using Tone Two NanoHost v1.2.2 x64,- needs 3% max ... three percent,- no kidding and both w/ a brass ensemble type patch !

Arturia´s CPU consumption varies significatntly depending on patch selected,- ME80 is almost constant in regards of CPU load.

 

Now, ME80 and C.A. GX80 are in a comparable price region.

I´ll try the demo for a comparison and some investigation in GX circuitry,- just only to find out if I´d need that musically.

 

I´m aware a CS80 was always different from later polysynths and it truly has it´s own sound and character, but I wouldn´t say it wasn´t a rocker´s synth.

In fact it was because it was available.

I knew a few rock musicians using it,- even in local top40 bands.

Two of my former friends owned a CS80, so I had the chance to play and tinker w/ it on occasion.

 

 

A.C.

[tonybanksfan]

Can’t believe nobody’s mentioned Tony Banks. He first used it on his solo album “A curious feeling”, then quite heavily on Duke, and I believe he even used it on Abacab. As far as I know, he never took one on tour as he felt it wasn’t as user friendly or reliable as some other keyboards available to him and remember, he also needed to cover a wide array of tunes over their discography which didn’t involve the CS 80 so alternate boards that could do that were put into his live kit.

[Al Coda]

On 12/2/2022 at 2:31 AM, Tusker said:

On 12/2/2022 at 1:50 AM, Al Coda said:

So,- what´s the fuss about the CS80?

 

It's a great question Al

 

Well, I checked it out last nite and yeah, it sounds gorgeous, last but not least because of the sounddesigners´ work.

Lots of great patches ready to play and single-, layer- and split- modes invite to do so even more.

Mike Martin, I´ve found some very cool patches in your bank,- hats off !

 

The big plus is, it´s in fact two CS80s w/ the GX-1 additions.

But it´s also the 1st C.A. VI demanding 3.4GHz quad core, which at a 1st glance hold me back from buying.

 

OTOH, on my 2.5GHz laptop I mentioned above it just only consumated approx. 12 - 22% CPU, 7 voices and similar single-mode patch I tried w/ CS80V4 and ME80.

But I also got up to 52% short peaks when using dual-mode patches and when switching patches, there might occur 99% CPU load for a fraction of a second.

Now, that´s o.k. ´cause I was playing two CS80 emulations simultaneously then.

CPU load in idle = 8%

AND,- when using it w/ a standard channel aftertouch controller, C.A´s method mimiking "quasi poly AT" is hands down the best of all 3 plugins mentioned above.

 

So,- arrrgh,- I hate it,- but I´ll buy this beast soon because it´s different from the others and sounds great.

I´ll use ME80 when in need of low CPU load and use the GX-80 mainly on my 4GHz quad main DAW machine where the large screen is also more comfortable.

 

Will investigate the GX-1 features today ...

 

 

A.C.

 

[Tusker]

31 minutes ago, Al Coda said:

Mike Martin, I´ve found some very cool patches in your bank,- hats off !

+1000 👏

[analogika]

On 12/2/2022 at 2:23 AM, JazzPiano88 said:

I only knew him from the Chariots of Fire movie.   But then my roommate put this on the turntable and I ran screaming and vowed never to listen to him again. 

One thing's for sure, Vangeles can't swing. 

 

 

Ah yes! The Supermarket Shuffle. 

[Shamanzarek]

"Was Vangelis..." implies deceased CS80 users and most of the people mentioned are still alive. So Vangelis could be the most well-known dead CS80 player.

[o0Ampy0o]

On 12/1/2022 at 8:03 AM, Bill H. said:

Re Vangelis - I think that's a common human flaw - to be exposed to a specific area then assume everyone has that same knowledge - that's why communication can be so darn puzzling at times.

 

...as well as behavior.

 

[o0Ampy0o]

On 11/30/2022 at 5:42 AM, Tusker said:

 

My father purchased a "regular" Electone for the family in 1976 and along with it came some classes, so we ended up at the Yamaha music school in Singapore on Saturdays. Obviously when the world electone championship contests took place they wanted all the students to hear the cream of the local crop. These might have been semifinals or regionals but the performance was important enough to be done on a GX1 which had been flown in from Tokyo and which sat in a roped off area for what seemed like several weeks of anticipation. From beyond the ropes, we could see that the knobs and sliders looked the same as our regular organs but there were more of them and of course the case looked like a spaceship. I didn't know then that the GX-1 had synthesizer circuits on the inside (envelopes, lfos, dynamic filters, ring mod, etc.) which were not present on the "regular" electones we were studying on. We had been told it was different and when we finally heard it the difference was obvious. What I remember most from the concert is a huge volume and sweetness of sound. A remarkable instrument.

 

Here's an example of the GX1 Electone being played as an organ ...

 

 

 

Made me think of this. It is a "Yamaha-EL01C."  It Googles as an Electone but looks different.

 

 

 

[David Emm]

7 hours ago, Shamanzarek said:

"Was Vangelis..." implies deceased CS80 users and most of the people mentioned are still alive. So Vangelis could be the most well-known dead CS80 player.

 

That made me imagine an alternate universe, where instead of exploding drummers, Spinal Tap has exploding synth players. 💥⚡