What is prog and does it exist today?

[Bill H.]

It's been interesting reading everyone's take on prog. My own comes from when I first heard the term around the time Tarkus and Fragile were released. So it's defined by those LPs and pretty narrow, and has to incorporate numerous time signature and key signature changes per track - punctuated with sudden changes in tempo and feel.

 

So I immediately recognize it, and don't have to think about it. If it doesn't grab me by the throat and jerk me around, it's not prog 😄

[Tom Williams]

In my ex-band, Prog was defined as "Music that Tom likes to play that won't get you a gig."

 

Moving along,

In addition to King Crimson, I would include Rush and GTR as exceptions to the keyboard rule for prog.  I would also add points for being willing to change the groove significantly within a single cut.  Examples include most ELP long-form songs, Tull's Thick as a Brick, Kansas's Magnum Opus, and Arthur Brown's Come and Buy.

[stoken6]

Putting this out there:

 

Bohemian Rhapsody - prog? If yes, why? If not, why not?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[stillearning]

For me, some notable traits of prog music:

 

Does not follow Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Verse, Chorus, Chorus.

Has key changes that are not simple modulations up 1 half or 1 whole step, often C# and F#.

Almost total lack of blues scale usage.

Frequent tempo and time signature changes.

Usually keyboard driven, often Hammond and Mellotron

No masturbatory solos. Only thought out, carefully planned solos.

Classical music influence

 

Some examples of prog bands from my youth:

Early Genesis, Van der Graaf, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Yes, Focus, Uriah Heep, Renaissance, ELP, The Nice, Camel, Gentle Giant…

[David Emm]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

Putting this out there:

Bohemian Rhapsody - prog? If yes, why? If not, why not?

 

 Yes, because its got a huge chunk of opera to it, plus its legendary rock aspects. Classical + screaming guitars, a blend that generally describes prog. The long run time and tempo changes lock it in as well. Its a peak accomplishment.

 

I'm amazed at how many YT 'hobos' can pull it off on public pianos. 

[K K]

To try to categorize music is mostly useless. Is ELP's The Barbarian more "prog" than Bartok's Allegro Barbaro ? Are the five last Beethoven Sonatas just classical/romantic, even though they incorporate such advanced composition techniques (or even "jazz" elements) that it took 20 years before pianists dared to play them in public ? What about Beethoven's Grosse Fuge ? Is it classical, avant-garde or the very first heavy metal composition ? If ELP is a progressive band, therefore their Love Beach album is as well ? 🤪

 

In any case, interestingly the year 1973 +/- a couple of months saw the best composers/musicians/bands of the time create some of their most impressive masterworks.

 

Yes - Close To The Edge

ELP - Brain Salad Surgery

Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon

Gentle Giant - The Power And The Glory

Genesis - Selling England By The Pound

King Crimson - Larks Tongues In Aspic

Jethro Tull - A Passion Play

Mike Oldfield - Tubular Bells

Vangelis - Earth

Patrick Moraz - Refugee (with Lee Jackson and Brian Davison)

etc.

 

[jazzpiano88]

2 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Putting this out there:

 

Bohemian Rhapsody - prog? If yes, why? If not, why not?

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

I remember there was a term Rock Opera. 

[Moonglow]

On 11/10/2022 at 5:17 PM, jerrythek said:

There's no doubt that prog has receded into a small, specialty area that is dominated by the older music of its heyday...but it's far from over.

 

Jerry

 

 

 

 

Definitely some proggy moments in that song, Jerry!

 

But seriously, check it out at 1:47...and then the Emerson-ish lick at 1:58.

 

 

Sorry, couldn't resist....

[mate stubb]

This is the best example of pure prog that I have ever seen.   Clonk

[o0Ampy0o]

3 hours ago, K K said:

To try to categorize music is mostly useless. Is ELP's The Barbarian more "prog" than Bartok's Allegro Barbaro ? 

Let’s accept that it is possible to come up with a definition. If anyone asked for an example of a famous band known for its top 10 hits demonstrating they are diverse and capable of (meeting everyone’s attempted definition of) progressive rock I would cite Toto. This here is a good excuse to show this video.
 

(They continue their level of musicianship while the gear cannot keep up. Kudos to the guitar tech, Jon Gosnell, and everyone.)

 

 

 

[David Emm]

2 hours ago, matted stump said:

This is the best example of pure prog that I have ever seen.   Clonk

 

This is definitely NSFW, but so what, Bill was a prophet. Bill Hicks on Rick Astley.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEcVtv1uD2g

[David Emm]

3 hours ago, K K said:

If ELP is a progressive band, therefore their Love Beach album is as well ? 🤪

 

 

I think we all generally agree that simply mentioning Love Beach causes most of us to start hacking up hairballs. I've generally loved ELP, but I keep that album in the back of the comedy & spoken word record section. It greatly reduces the chances of me seeing that cover again. 

 

Otherwise, I have nothing but praise for them. ELP and Yes formed my first prog bones. Well, them, The Rite of Spring and the Jet Song from West Side Story. I started turning my nose up at 4/4 songs early. 🤨

 

[kaptainkeys]

15 hours ago, o0Ampy0o said:

Let’s accept that it is possible to come up with a definition. If anyone asked for an example of a famous band known for its top 10 hits demonstrating they are diverse and capable of (meeting everyone’s attempted definition of) progressive rock I would cite Toto. This here is a good excuse to show this video.
 

(They continue their level of musicianship while the gear cannot keep up. Kudos to the guitar tech, Jon Gosnell, and everyone.)

 

100% agree.

Their albums Hydra and Turn Back definitely get into prog territory on some tracks, as do some of the tracks on Kingdom of Desire (like the aforementioned Jake to the Bone) and Tambu.

[Konnector]

15 hours ago, o0Ampy0o said:

Let’s accept that it is possible to come up with a definition. If anyone asked for an example of a famous band known for its top 10 hits demonstrating they are diverse and capable of (meeting everyone’s attempted definition of) progressive rock I would cite Toto. This here is a good excuse to show this video.
 

(They continue their level of musicianship while the gear cannot keep up. Kudos to the guitar tech, Jon Gosnell, and everyone.)

 

At least he kept his cool. Unlike the last time I saw ELP when Greg Lake's bass starting cutting out during a song. He whipped it off and hurled it across the stage into his bass rig in a fit of rage. (It was a nice bass too.)  

 

[KuruPrionz]

OK, let's see if this stretches some brains.

Happy Jack by The Who, written in November 1966.

Pre-Prog? Prototypical Prog Pop? No keyboards, interesting time signatures, intense drumming and spirited harmonies. Plus a cool story. 

 

 

[Theo Verelst]

It could be musicians who have little interesting to say feel that "progressive" is like the Union Jack: mandatory flagging to be popular.

 

T

[GRollins]

If we're down to something as arbitrary and elusive as "spirit" to define prog, then we're sunk. This will soon turn into, "It's prog because I say it's prog," which isn't a definition at all.

 

Actually, I think we've already reached that point.

 

While I'm sympathetic to the idea of true orchestral classical composers (Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, et. al.) being mentioned in a discussion like this, it's a dead end because they don't fit the other half of the term: Prog Rock. They were definitely direct influences for at least some of the musicians in question, but they weren't writing rock music. ELP did direct interpretations and Yes constantly referred to classical composers (in addition to using Rite of Spring over the PA to start their shows), but no one has said that Yes and ELP were classical composers...yet...

 

I and a couple of others have made attempts to define prog as a genre, but others seem to want prog to mean anything they want it to mean. 1910 Fruitgum Company? Sure! Sly and the Family Stone? Of course! Melanie? Why not? Neil Diamond? Three Dog Night? Grand Funk Railroad? ...and so on... Eventually, you've added every band that ever existed because someone, somewhere said so. Once you've reached that stage, there's no point in continuing the discussion because prog rock, as a term, has become so watered down that it's meaningless. In like fashion, hard rock, heavy metal, punk, etc. will all come crashing down for the same reason. The next bastion to fall will be the overarching term rock, itself, along with jazz, classical, folk, country... Where does it end? Yes, it's all music (except maybe rap and its offshoots...but let's not open that can of worms) and it's difficult to categorize something that has so many sometimes subtle gradations. And yet...it's still possible to set apart a red oak (Quercus rubra) from a white oak (Quercus alba) in spite of the fact that they both have leaves and trunks and roots and acorns. Somebody took the time and trouble to think it through instead of waving their hands vaguely in the air and saying that they're clearly pine trees because they grow in the same climate...

 

Grey

[stillearning]

16 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

OK, let's see if this stretches some brains.

Happy Jack by The Who, written in November 1966.

Pre-Prog? Prototypical Prog Pop? No keyboards, interesting time signatures, intense drumming and spirited harmonies. Plus a cool story. 

 

 

I’ll see your Happy Jack, and Raise you Harold the Barrel.

 

[o0Ampy0o]

3 hours ago, GRollins said:

If we're down to something as arbitrary and elusive as "spirit" to define prog, then we're sunk. This will soon turn into, "It's prog because I say it's prog," which isn't a definition at all.

 

Actually, I think we've already reached that point.

 

While I'm sympathetic to the idea of true orchestral classical composers (Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, et. al.) being mentioned in a discussion like this, it's a dead end because they don't fit the other half of the term: Prog Rock. They were definitely direct influences for at least some of the musicians in question, but they weren't writing rock music. ELP did direct interpretations and Yes constantly referred to classical composers (in addition to using Rite of Spring over the PA to start their shows), but no one has said that Yes and ELP were classical composers...yet...

 

I and a couple of others have made attempts to define prog as a genre, but others seem to want prog to mean anything they want it to mean. 1910 Fruitgum Company? Sure! Sly and the Family Stone? Of course! Melanie? Why not? Neil Diamond? Three Dog Night? Grand Funk Railroad? ...and so on... Eventually, you've added every band that ever existed because someone, somewhere said so. Once you've reached that stage, there's no point in continuing the discussion because prog rock, as a term, has become so watered down that it's meaningless. In like fashion, hard rock, heavy metal, punk, etc. will all come crashing down for the same reason. The next bastion to fall will be the overarching term rock, itself, along with jazz, classical, folk, country... Where does it end? Yes, it's all music (except maybe rap and its offshoots...but let's not open that can of worms) and it's difficult to categorize something that has so many sometimes subtle gradations. And yet...it's still possible to set apart a red oak (Quercus rubra) from a white oak (Quercus alba) in spite of the fact that they both have leaves and trunks and roots and acorns. Somebody took the time and trouble to think it through instead of waving their hands vaguely in the air and saying that they're clearly pine trees because they grow in the same climate...

 

Grey

 

Dude EVERY idea begins as spirit which is conveyed in approximation with words. Most art begins with inspiration and later is described then repeaters and copiers begin with the words or the product of initial inspiration.Or perhaps more than one can originate the same idea which has seemed to occur from time to time.

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, GRollins said:

If we're down to something as arbitrary and elusive as "spirit" to define prog, then we're sunk. This will soon turn into, "It's prog because I say it's prog," which isn't a definition at all.

 

Actually, I think we've already reached that point.

 

While I'm sympathetic to the idea of true orchestral classical composers (Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, et. al.) being mentioned in a discussion like this, it's a dead end because they don't fit the other half of the term: Prog Rock. They were definitely direct influences for at least some of the musicians in question, but they weren't writing rock music. ELP did direct interpretations and Yes constantly referred to classical composers (in addition to using Rite of Spring over the PA to start their shows), but no one has said that Yes and ELP were classical composers...yet...

 

I and a couple of others have made attempts to define prog as a genre, but others seem to want prog to mean anything they want it to mean. 1910 Fruitgum Company? Sure! Sly and the Family Stone? Of course! Melanie? Why not? Neil Diamond? Three Dog Night? Grand Funk Railroad? ...and so on... Eventually, you've added every band that ever existed because someone, somewhere said so. Once you've reached that stage, there's no point in continuing the discussion because prog rock, as a term, has become so watered down that it's meaningless. In like fashion, hard rock, heavy metal, punk, etc. will all come crashing down for the same reason. The next bastion to fall will be the overarching term rock, itself, along with jazz, classical, folk, country... Where does it end? Yes, it's all music (except maybe rap and its offshoots...but let's not open that can of worms) and it's difficult to categorize something that has so many sometimes subtle gradations. And yet...it's still possible to set apart a red oak (Quercus rubra) from a white oak (Quercus alba) in spite of the fact that they both have leaves and trunks and roots and acorns. Somebody took the time and trouble to think it through instead of waving their hands vaguely in the air and saying that they're clearly pine trees because they grow in the same climate...

 

Grey

Not sure if you are referring to my post but Happy Jack is the only Who song that displays any sort of "Pre-Prog"-ish tendencies. 
I heard it the other day and thought "OK, that is really not regular old normal pop music". 

Was it influential? I don't know, that's why I ask in my post above if it is maybe a progenitor of a genre. Give it a spin and find something earlier?

[jazzpiano88]

It is whatever you want it to be:

 

Triads over unexpected bass tones with mixed in virtuosity:

 

 

Classical set to rock beat:

 

Wild eye'd guys who play flute in a rock band (bonus yodling skills):

 

[stillearning]

I was in a band years ago that played Hocus Pocus! Fun song!

[stoken6]

Thanks for sharing Happy Jack. For me it's not quite prog, but certainly lays done some guidelines. More sophisticated treatment of harmony may have given it a classification.

 

(Hocus Pocus definitely qualifies!)

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Tusker]

Very grateful for the Happy Jack example KP!

 

To me, Happy Jack is playing with a Caribbean aesthetic and idiom, rather than the English Pastoral idiom or the Classical idiom both which became central to progressive rock in the early 1970s.

 

To recap my way of looking at prog ... 

 

Prog rock is not merely a particular movement centered around particular musicians of the 1970s we all admire. It's also an idiom and it is an aspiration. As an idiom, it is a synthesis of rock music with other idioms including classical, jazz, and folk. Thematically it can include mythic, historical and spiritual ideas. Thirdly, as an aspiration, prog rock seeks to move popular rock music further than it's normal boundaries. The movement describes what they did. The idiom describes how they did it. The aspiration describes why they did it.

 

When the what, how and why are in place, more of us are likely to designate a piece of music as prog. With Happy Jack in 1966, the Caribbean idioms don't initially seem to achieve much success. However in the late 1970s, Caribbean has a strong moment. You can hear Genesis, the Police and other rock groups taking up Reggae.

[Iconoclast]

Back on the "Does it exist today" part of the thread...You can't get much more prog than this and it's from about 6 years ago. It really reminds me of some of the 60's stuff except that it gets heavier in the middle. But this relatively recent album from Opeth was all about the Prog. (older Opeth is completely different musicians and isn't Prog...so if you search for Opeth you might find some very heavy metal with cookie monster vocals, so ironically as this band matured they became MORE proggy.)

You can't speak about modern Prog without mentioning Steven Wilson and the many projects he's been in. Porcupine Tree, Blackfield, Storm Corrosion, and his own solo stuff.  Porcupine Tree started out as pretty much a Pink Floyd clone but over the 20+ years they've been around they've morphed into something much IMHO greater. They're very current and just released and album and tour this year.

 

[Iconoclast]

Derek Sherinian also continues to get back at Dream Theater for not realizing how good he actually was. Released only 2 years ago:

 

[KuruPrionz]

8 hours ago, Tusker said:

Very grateful for the Happy Jack example KP!

 

To me, Happy Jack is playing with a Caribbean aesthetic and idiom, rather than the English Pastoral idiom or the Classical idiom both which became central to progressive rock in the early 1970s.

 

To recap my way of looking at prog ... 

 

Prog rock is not merely a particular movement centered around particular musicians of the 1970s we all admire. It's also an idiom and it is an aspiration. As an idiom, it is a synthesis of rock music with other idioms including classical, jazz, and folk. Thematically it can include mythic, historical and spiritual ideas. Thirdly, as an aspiration, prog rock seeks to move popular rock music further than it's normal boundaries. The movement describes what they did. The idiom describes how they did it. The aspiration describes why they did it.

 

When the what, how and why are in place, more of us are likely to designate a piece of music as prog. With Happy Jack in 1966, the Caribbean idioms don't initially seem to achieve much success. However in the late 1970s, Caribbean has a strong moment. You can hear Genesis, the Police and other rock groups taking up Reggae.

I found an interview with Chris Squire, on the 5th question he mentions John Entwhistle as a major influence. 

https://forbassplayersonly.com/interview-chris-squire/

Which is part of why I said "pre-prog", I don't think Happy Jack by The Who was prog but it seems to me it could have been seminal in setting things in motion. 

I'm not really hearing Caribbean, used to listen to a fair bit of that too. So it goes, we are all different. 😊

[David Emm]

That was excellent. Derek has colossal Emersonian balls. I got a master class from just watching him wring out two tilted Nords live. Alice Cooper said he had chops and the right rock attitude, sticking his chin out when he hit the stage.  I believe he lurks here a bit. He pops up once in a great while. An outstanding player.

[Konnector]

In a Gadda Da Vida in 1968 may have planted a seed or two as "somewhat" of an early prog prototype. Psychedelic blues based rock for the most part but with some "Bach-ish" overtones from the organ here and there. It was also the first rock song released to my knowledge that took up an entire side of an LP. 

[CyberGene]

I started listening to Rush today and got reminded why I have mixed feelings about them and most progressive rock bands: the high-pitched (even squeaky) male vocals. It’s also the reason why I absolutely adore the sound of Porcupine Tree but can’t stand them for longer due to the vocal. Same with Dream Theater, Yes and many others. 
 

Ate there any prog rock bands with darker (not growl though!) male vocals?

 

P.S. Maybe I’m not bothered as much by the high pitch as I am by the vocal being too in your face and prominent. As a reference I love how Roger Waters and David Gilmour sing, they are not any virtuoso singers and I might even go as far as to say they are probably slightly lame as singers but it just blends perfectly with the music.