What is prog and does it exist today?

[Tusker]

This question arose in a thread about Keith Emerson's estate and rather than spoil that thread, I thought I'd start this one. Please accept my apologies for this long first post.

 

Grey has asked me for a definition of prog that he can accept. I am not sure my definitions will work for him and that's ok. People are different. No offense taken. We do not need to agree to be agreeable. Let me try to describe what prog rock is to me, with descriptions and examples.

 

Prog rock is not merely a particular movement centered around particular musicians of the 1970s we all admire. It's also an idiom and it is an aspiration. As an idiom, it is a synthesis of rock music with other idioms including classical, jazz, and folk. Thematically it can include mythic, historical and spiritual ideas. Thirdly, as an aspiration, prog rock seeks to move popular rock music further than it's normal boundaries. 

 

So what is prog as a movement?  The bands come most quickly to mind for me are Early Genesis, Yes and ELP. It is said that we never forget our first love. For me this type of prog rock was a first love.  Which is why nobody can replace Keith Emerson or Tony Banks or Rick Wakeman. However even as a movement, prog was bigger than these bands. King Crimson and Gentle Giant may stand taller for many. I don't who posted this family tree, but it illustrates what the prog rock movement grew out of and what it grew into ...

 

 

 

This tree stops in the 1990s which for me says more about the author than about the music. Still, even in it's incompleteness, it is illustrative of the breath of prog rock. Perhaps there are some bands you should check out? And yet prog is more than a mere movement.

 

Secondly, prog is a musical idiom, it is a synthesis of rock music with other idioms including classical, jazz, and folk influences. It often characterized by mythic, spiritual and historical themes. Does that include jazz fusion then? My answer would be only if there is enough rock in it. So what do we do Mahavishnu's Orchestra's and Return to Forever's music when it includes rock idioms, mythic or spiritual themes and genre transcending elements? I don't have an answer here, and I don't seek one. The question is more interesting than an answer. Some people get around this definition by utilizing the the adjective "proggy", saying something like "Well that's proggy but it's not prog." This attitude assumes a purist orientation which is furthest from the idiomatic foundation of prog rock. Prog rock by definition is not a pure breed but a proud mongrel. Get used to it.

 

Thirdly, prog rock is an aspiration of rock to grow beyond it's traditional roots. This aspect of prog calls to mind Steve Hackett's 1970 advertisement in the Melody Maker which piqued the curiosity of Genesis and resulted in his audition with the band: "Imaginative guitarist-writer seeks involvement with receptive musicians, determined to strive beyond existing stagnant music forms"  This aspirational view can take prog rock to lots of places you wouldn't think to travel at first like Robert Fripp and Brian Eno's experiments with electronics or Krautrockers who did rock without guitars or to Johann Johannson's Orphee album (which sounds so Tony Banksy to me).

 

Well I've described rather a large place haven't I? Wouldn't some of this music be better defined with more precise labels? For you perhaps. For me, the broader view encourages more things to enjoy and explore. As I see increasingly the prog kinship between Herbie Hancock and Keith Emerson, I can appreciate each of them more, not less.  I realize this conversation is a bit like the glass half-full glass half-empty conversation. There is no right answer. But a noble conversation can be had which doesn't arrive at a correct answer: the journey can be more important than the destination. So jump in with your own views!! I am eager to listen and learn.

 

I'll close this post by linking to Andy Edwards' discussion of prog albums which are actually jazz fusion albums. 😂   

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

29 minutes ago, Tusker said:

This tree stops in the 1990s which for me says more about the author than about the music.

or maybe it was simply a function of when the chart was created. But yes, it persists... What was unique about its place in the 70s was how mainstream it was. Billboard top ten stuff.

 

 

[Old No7]

24 minutes ago, Tusker said:

Prog rock is not merely a particular movement centered around particular musicians of the 1970s we all admire. It's also an idiom and it is an aspiration. As an idiom, it is a synthesis of rock music with other idioms including classical, jazz, and folk. Thematically it can include mythic, historical and spiritual ideas. Thirdly, as an aspiration, prog rock seeks to move popular rock music further than it's normal boundaries. 

 

That sums it up pretty well for me -- and I'll have to study that chart again.  At the most basic level, progressive rock is so much more than a rock tune with just 3 chords like I-IV-V played in 4/4 time -- and for sure, the use of keyboards truly expanded the range of sonic possibilities, textures, tones and effects that could be added to the guitar, bass and drum tracks.

 

So -- here's an interesting tangential thought.....

 

-->  Would progressive rock have progressed (pun intended!) as far as it has without having synthesizers???

 

I think we would have missed out on quite a lot; imagine Yes or Pink Floyd without any keyboards...

 

Or ELP without the "E"...  "GLP" (with guitar) -- would not work well (as we saw on Carl Palmer's tour with guitars covering for a Hammond)

 

Old No7

 

[Ivan May]

To me, prog is still relevant. Did anyone buy any albums by Opeth or Dream Theater? Those guys are probably the closest thing to prog in 2022.

[AnotherScott]

There's lots of stuff... just google: 21st century prog rock

[CEB]

Prog is an after the fact nomenclature invention.  In the day Prog was not a label.  It was simple Rock or Album Rock.  It is what was played on KSHE 95 Real Rock Radio.   Prog didn't exist until the 90s.

[AnotherScott]

9 minutes ago, CEB said:

Prog is an after the fact nomenclature invention.  In the day Prog was not a label.  It was simple Rock or Album Rock.  It is what was played on KSHE 95 Real Rock Radio.   Prog didn't exist until the 90s.

I don't know about "prog," but "progressive rock" was a widely used term in the 70s.

[Biggles]

1 hour ago, CEB said:

Prog is an after the fact nomenclature invention.  In the day Prog was not a label.  It was simple Rock or Album Rock.  It is what was played on KSHE 95 Real Rock Radio.   Prog didn't exist until the 90s.

Whilst it may have taken twenty years to get over to the USA and into your knowledge Progressive Rock was most certainly here in the UK in the late 60’s and early 70’s with Yes, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, the Moody Blues, Genesis, Procol Harum and ELO.

 

In fact The Yes Album charted in the USA in 1973 so Prog Rock had definitely landed in the hearts of US fans of the British Prog scene just as ELP well and truly landed over here and we learned that Englishman Mr Emerson was the keyboard God that he was, RIP Keith a lad from a small town we refer to as Toddy, about a hour away from where I live.

 

 

[CEB]

It wasn’t particularly over progressive when in the Midwest US we had bar bands like Kansas whose first four albums are the greatest progressive rock albums in history. 

[DovJ]

As a diehard lover of “prog” who aspires to write some of my own…

 

I would argue that the Hammond organ was more central to early prog than the synthesizer. At the moment I’m listening to Steven Wilson’s 2012 remix of Jethro Tull’s Thick as a Brick. There’s nary a synthesizer here, but it sure sounds like “prog” to me!

 

Rick Wakeman is my keyboard hero and a true inspiration. While Rick used and uses lots of synthesizers, the Hammond, acoustic piano and Mellotron sounds way outnumber the Minimoog on his early Yes material. Could Yes be prog without synths? For sure IMHO!

[Docbop]

I worked in a record store off and on all through the 70's and really don't remember the term being used that much.  Like bands that are now call Metal back then were just Hard or Heavy Rock.   Most of what I see called Prog now are groups do I remember selling a lots of their albums and just Rock groups whose music was played a lot on the AOR (Album Oriented Rock) radio stations.   

 

 

My music taste was all over the place first from getting into music in the 60's and underground FM radio to me that was best of times for radio.   Those stations played all types of music from Rock, experimental,  Jazz, Folk,  Blues, Classical, and typically all mixed together.  That mixing of different genres back to back introduced people to a lot of music they might normally never listened to, it was great.   Then my other influence was working in the record store and hearing all types of music and needed to know a little something about everything classical, Top 40,  hard Rock, Jazz, Country, MOR (Middle of the Road) 40's and 50's.   So that was quite an education in music and other things working in a record store.  That said Prog was never my thing I knew the popular stuff from selling it and playing it in the store for customers.      

[DovJ]

Does prog exist today?

 

Listen to the latest Styx album, Crash of the Crown, or the Neal Morse Band’s recent releases. They’re genuine “prog” of the American midwestern sort, again IMHO. 

[stillearning]

When I think early progressive music, I think Hammond and mellotron, as played in Watcher of the Skies. The first prog rock album I listened to was Trespass, because my friend, who was an artist, bought it because he liked the album cover.

 I don’t remember calling it prog, or progressive at the time, (although we may have) I think it was just the current music that evolved pretty much out of later Beatles songs imo. My first actual band, in high school, we learned Watcher of the Skies and played it at high school dances alongside Neil Young songs! I don’t remember prog having it’s own distinct genre as it later became. 

[AnotherScott]

43 minutes ago, Biggles said:

In fact The Yes Album charted in the USA in 1973 so Prog Rock had definitely landed in the hearts of US fans of the British Prog scene just as ELP well and truly landed over here

Sure, regardless of what it was called, progressive rock was significant in the U.S.  The Yes Album actually charted two years earlier in 1971 (hit #40 on billboard according to wikipedia), though Fragile was the big 1971 hit for them, hitting #4. For ELP, Tarkus hit #9, though 1972's Trilogy did better at #5. That year, Thick as a Brick hit #1.

[BadLife]

So in this context progressive rock Is being used as a label for a specific type of music that was created in the past and not as a way to describe new music that sounds nothing like any of the music that was new and different at a certain point in the past?

[Tusker]

3 minutes ago, BadLife said:

So in this context progressive rock Is being used as a label for a specific type of music that was created in the past and not as a way to describe new music that sounds nothing like any of the music that was new and different at a certain point in the past?

+1 Not to me. To me a good way to honor that music of the past is recognize, respect and validate that music’s children.

[Konnector]

"Prog rock" was something different, something new and experimental when it appeared. It also introduced a whole new sound and instrument to the masses - the synthesizer. (Lucky Man, etc.)  That can never happen again. Just like the Beatles can never happen again.

 

Is it still breathing?  Yes. I think it's actually risen from the depths it sank to. A lot of it exists in the metal domain, but there's all kinds of flavors just like it always had. Bands like Porcupine tree, Dream Theater, etc. have proven that there's still an audience out there for prog rock if it's done well. 

 

Is it still relevant? No more or no less relevant than anything else out there today IMO. It's a matter of personal taste. I doubt you'll ever convince FM radio to play some new prog material, but FM radio is pretty dismal these days, so who cares? There's prog radio on the internet, and the people that gravitate towards that type of music can still find it and support it.

[Delaware Dave]

Gee, i would label those bands 'classic rock' ....    LOL  😂🙃

[Baggypants]

Apropos of nothing. Somebody asked me what type of music I play and I explained it as "Progressive Lounge".

[stoken6]

57 minutes ago, Konnector said:

Porcupine tree

Thank you for mentioning. Theirs was the first name I thought of when considering prog today. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Docbop]

42 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

Gee, i would label those bands 'classic rock' ....    LOL  😂🙃

 

When I was coming up playing Classic Rock was 50's and early 60's Rock and R&B groups.   Now it seems to be 70's on to ????

 

 

[AnotherScott]

yeah, the progressive rock that got a lot of airplay in the 70s is also classic rock. But there is a lot of classic rock that is not progressive, and a lot of progressive rock that is not classic. It's a Venn diagram thing. ;-)

[Delaware Dave]

43 minutes ago, Docbop said:

 

When I was coming up playing Classic Rock was 50's and early 60's Rock and R&B groups.   Now it seems to be 70's on to ????

 

 

I don't know, I've never left the 70's.  It's all i play.

[Iconoclast]

I just saw Porcupine Tree in Dallas in Sept and they filled an enthusiastic 4000 seater (attached pic).  Huge fan of everything they've done. Also have seen Steven Wilson's solo band a couple of times and thought one of his shows was in the top 5 of concerts that I've ever been to.  I love the newer Opeth once they transitioned from a crap-metal band to a true progressive group. The Pinapple Thief...Blackfield...Haken...Second Life Syndrome...Pure Reason Revolution...IQ...RPWL...Camel

I could go on, but I think the truth, like a lot of stuff, is it's just harder to FIND the music you want as there's no record companies, radio stations curating your mix for you anymore.  And most importantly, you don't sit around smoking pot in the basement with 15 year olds anymore, trading tracks off of a turntable and a hi fi.. I think THERE'S ACTUALLY MORE PROG AVAILABLE NOW THAN THERE EVER WAS.
 

[Iconoclast]

3 hours ago, CEB said:

It wasn’t particularly over progressive when in the Midwest US we had bar bands like Kansas whose first four albums are the greatest progressive rock albums in history. 

Ah-F'ing-men to that.  I just had a long midnight drive last week that resurrected Song For America (the entire album) for me.

[Shamanzarek]

The term Prog is still used to describe some modern music styles many incorporating elements of Metal. Often Symphonic Metal bands have keyboards, a female opera-trained singer, a male "dirty" vocalist, and sometimes perform with orchestras and choirs. Most of these bands are from countries like Finland, Switzerland, Sweden, The Netherlands, Germany, Italy, and Bulgaria though there is Kamelot in Florida which borrows members of the European bands for their recordings. Classic Prog mostly used real or analog instruments like Piano, Organ, Mono-Synth, Violin, Flute, and Mellotron. Today it is played mostly on modern digital keyboards sometimes but not always imitating real sounds. It might be called Prog of some type but doesn't really sound like the what came out of the late 60s and 70s. As with most musical styles the most memorable genre defining compositions were done in the earlier formative years. Prog is still around in name at least but rarely achieves chart topping, stadium filling popularity. The few early Prog bands that are still around sometimes have a sizable following. Many of the lesser-known Prog groups like The Strawbs, Camel, Caravan, Curved Air, Focus, Gryphon, Happy the Man, Barclay James Harvest, Nectar, and PFM have been able to maintain a long career to this day though not without personnel changes. Classic Prog music still commands respect and can have longevity.

 

Usually Prog implies a high level of musicianship. The bands that were the precursors to Prog like The Moody Blues and Pink Floyd were not stellar musicians but developed extended song forms and sounds that became defining elements of Prog. The first King Crimson album would likely not exist without The Moody Blues. They initially had Moodies producer Tony Clarke come in but he declined to be involved. Mike Pinder of The Moody Blues turned The Beatles on to the Mellotron. All four members owned one and though they used it sparingly it inspired others to use the instrument.

 

Pink Floyd from their first album in 1967 were experimenting with unusual avant-garde sounds and composition forms. Saucerful of Secrets, album and the lengthy title instrumental, was a major breakthrough as an influence on what became Prog.

 

I think Vanilla Fudge could also be counted as an early influence on Prog. Their 1967 debut album was hugely popular in England and went to number one in the US. Although the only keyboard they used was a Hammond B3 they managed to evoke a symphonic ambience along with some impressive musicianship.

 

1967 seems to the year when rock started becoming more adventurous but at least a year earlier there was a British organist called Don Shinn who was a huge Prog influence especially on Keith Emerson and possibly others like Jon Lord, Rick Wakeman, and Vincent Crane. He was playing Bach's Brandenburg Concerto and other classical pieces while rocking his Hammond L100 to create thunder effects from the spring reverb. He played with drummer Brian Davison before Davison joined Keith Emerson in The Nice.

 

 

 

 

[Morrissey]

6 hours ago, IMMusicRulz said:

To me, prog is still relevant. Did anyone buy any albums by Opeth or Dream Theater? Those guys are probably the closest thing to prog in 2022.

 

Umphrey's McGee straddles a lot of genres but often describes itself as a prog rock band. They're still doing their thing, although not as commercially successful as predecessors.

[PianoMan51]

Take rock and roll instrumentation and sensibility.
 

Strip out ‘the blues’ and and inject European Classical or European Folk music.

 

That’s an important distinction for Prog IMHO.
 

That’s why Gary Brooker’s songs in Procul Harem are prog, but Robin Trower’s are not. 

[Tom Williams]

Would  j'all consider Magenta to be more recent prog?  I'm gonna go to my music room now and crank up Lizard King. 

 

 

[DovJ]

@Tom Williamsthat’s good stuff!

 

It has a kind of US midwestern/Rush-ish AOR prog sound.