Covers in a key other than original

[KuruPrionz]

10 minutes ago, Outkaster said:

Always the original key.  This came up at practice and most tunes in other than stock keys sound like shit.   Someone wanted to drop something from A flat to Gmajor and it would have sounded terrible.  The drummer agreed.  Not everyone is sensitive to this but I can always tell and I don't have perfect pitch.

"This came up at practice and most tunes in other than stock keys sound like shit. " Profoundly disagree but then I'm just a lowly guitar player and changing keys is very easy compared to keyboards so I'll give you that one. I can't count the songs I've played where the key was changed so the singer could do their best job. I also can't count the times that somebody complained that the song was not in the original key, because it never happened once. 

 

If a good singer can have a song played in one of their better keys the only people who will care what key a song is in will be up on stage, in the band and only thinking about it. If you can find the right key for the singer, that will sound better than going out of their range. I was in a Motown cover band with 3 lead singers. One of them could sing just like Michael Jackson doing I'll Be There with the Jackson Five. That's crazy high!!! The other two singers needed us to adjust the keys of the songs for their voices, not everybody can conjure up Smokey Robinson in the original key. We filled the dance floor, original key or not. 

 

If you play with a good groove and clearly sing the words in the chorus, your audience will like you. They don't care what key you sing in and a song does not automatically sound like shit if you need to find the right key for your singer.

 

[Outkaster]

Yes but I notice it and its never the same. Sorry I don't agree with you.

[stillearning]

On 10/7/2022 at 10:54 AM, timwat said:

 

I've made December 1963 (Oh What A Night) much simpler, by learning it first in Db.

 

Seriously though, that's the only key I've ever been called to play that in.

Same here. I have long made it a habit of forcing myself to learn songs in keys that I may at one time been uncomfortable playing. I find the more I play in different keys, the more comfortable I get. I practice playing the scale tone chords, in inversions, for all 12 keys on a regular basis. And insist my students do the same. Great exercise for covering pop songs on the fly!

 

The only song I remember ever using the transpose function for is Hush by DP. I sometimes sit in with a band who play the song in B instead of C, because the guitarist’s turntable ran a bit slow! Those slaps and smears may not have sounded right playing in B, so I didn’t even try, and I “cheat” on that one.

[Bobbo Fett]

17 hours ago, Outkaster said:

Always the original key.  This came up at practice and most tunes in other than stock keys sound like shit.   Someone wanted to drop something from A flat to Gmajor and it would have sounded terrible.  The drummer agreed.  Not everyone is sensitive to this but I can always tell and I don't have perfect pitch.

You know what sounds even MORE like shit? (In my opinion, of course).... A singer killing him or herself to sing a song outside their range because of a slavish devotion on the band's part to play the song in the original key. You can come at me hard if you want, but I am solidly in the "The singer is the most important part of the performance, and everything the BAND does should be aimed at putting the singer in the best light" camp....especially when we're talking something as trivial as a half step, even if it made MY life less sizzly for those 3-4 minutes, I put up with it, because the audience cares WAY more about the singer delivering an awesome performance than whatever I'm doing.....that's just my 2 shekels, based on my 50 years of noodling around in this biz. Your mileage may vary, and that's cool too.....

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, Outkaster said:

Yes but I notice it and its never the same. Sorry I don't agree with you.

Works for me, it's unlikely we'll ever play music together anyway. 

I'm right in the middle of changing keys for songs so I can sing them. Solo on acoustic guitar and vocals. 

The only songs that I could do that would "sound just like the record" would be songs in keys that work for me and are played with only an acoustic guitar. 

I don't care in the slightest about about trying to sound "just like the record", nobody ever nails it anyway. Like pushing jelly up a hill with a rope. 

I find it more rewarding to sound just like me so that's what I'm gonna do. 

 

Rather have a blank piece of paper and a drawing pencil to make my own images than a coloring book and use the correct colors in every designated area, not interesting to me at all. 

[stoken6]

17 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

As for what happens if there's a real Hammond at the venue... I don't think I'd be playing Video Killed the Radio Star. 😉

You can't be sure... http://coolestsound.jp/Sally_Kubota_Group_feat._Emiri_Kanou_Video_Killed_/2022.07.28/014312/

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Outkaster]

23 minutes ago, Bobbo Fett said:

You know what sounds even MORE like shit? (In my opinion, of course).... A singer killing him or herself to sing a song outside their range because of a slavish devotion on the band's part to play the song in the original key. You can come at me hard if you want, but I am solidly in the "The singer is the most important part of the performance, and everything the BAND does should be aimed at putting the singer in the best light" camp....especially when we're talking something as trivial as a half step, even if it made MY life less sizzly for those 3-4 minutes, I put up with it, because the audience cares WAY more about the singer delivering an awesome performance than whatever I'm doing.....that's just my 2 shekels, based on my 50 years of noodling around in this biz. Your mileage may vary, and that's cool too.....

Of course not.  I am not saying there isn't exceptions but often re-keying things doesn't sound good.

[KuruPrionz]

17 hours ago, Outkaster said:

Always the original key.  

1 minute ago, Outkaster said:

Of course not.  I am not saying there isn't exceptions but often re-keying things doesn't sound good.

 

Hmmm...

[Montunoman 2]

I would also say, "play in the best key for the singer"  But yes, certain instrumental lines can sound weird if they are played out of range. The EP part on Billy Joel , "Just The Way You Are" sounds out of range real quick if it's taken much more than a  whole step up or down, but still I'd rather hear that than a singer singing out of their comfortable ranged 

 

On another note, how come jazz/American Song book players seem to embrace being able to play in any key, while pop/rock players don't?

[Mills Dude]

47 minutes ago, Montunoman 2 said:

I would also say, "play in the best key for the singer"  But yes, certain instrumental lines can sound weird if they are played out of range. The EP part on Billy Joel , "Just The Way You Are" sounds out of range real quick if it's taken much more than a  whole step up or down, but still I'd rather hear that than a singer singing out of their comfortable ranged 

 

On another note, how come jazz/American Song book players seem to embrace being able to play in any key, while pop/rock players don't?

Very true about the BJ tune but it all has to do with the context/era of these tunes.  We've been living in an era since the '60s and earlier with access to cheap recorded music.  Those arrangements and signature licks become a part of the song as much as the melody and lyrics.

 

The GASB or simply standards are mostly songs from the musical theater period 20s - 50s.  They were typically part of a show and in those days there weren't really original cast recordings like we might see from something like Rent or Les Miserables today.  Sure there was recorded music back then but it didn't really become the huge music industry that it is today until the Rock n Roll era with the post-WWII boom and middle class kids going nuts buying records.  

 

The jazz cats picked these tunes based on harmony and melody and if there were any signature licks, they were usually discarded.  For me, the version of My Favorite Things by Coltrane with that intro lick from McCoy Tyner became a signature.  If I ever play that tune, I always add it because it represent the song for me, much like the intro to Just the Way You Are.   The players took these tunes, re-arranged and adapted them for their needs.  Very rarely do we have an original reference point, sure we can find it but most of those songs outlived the play they were written for because they found new life with a different performer.

 

In our more modern world, we've grown up, lived and died, with these recordings that speak to us, so naturally, we're more inclined to want to recreate that exact arrangement.  Most guitarists strive to learn those licks, its become its own thing -- the desire to play that Jimmy Page or whoever lick note for note with the same kind of feel.  

 

That' part of what this thread is all about.  For some, its the recreation of that recorded arrangement even down to the exact key, doing otherwise is sacrilege.  For others, they desire to take a tune, rearrange it and transform it into something different.  There's no wrong answer its just different strokes for different folks.

 

Now with Just The Way You Are, that intro part is drilled into my consciousness as part of the song.  I would argue that the saxophone solo is also..  Whenever I play/sing that song, I always end up humming and playing the sax solo.  Its so iconic its one of those solos that a performer covering the song probably feels obligated to quote most of it.   As I said earlier in this thread, the rhodes intro relies on specific voicings in a specific register.  Moving the whole thing down a 4th or 5th would entirely change the character.  A whole or half step, not so much.  I think BJ these days performs everything a whole step down and happily uses the transpose button to do so.  The only real exception I know of is New York State Of Mind.  I've heard him play a rearranged version of that.   BJ is a legacy act now and its almost an obligation to play those songs as close to the recording as possible.  Thats what the people who pay the exorbitant ticket prices want to hear.    Except for something like New York State .... where he kind of treats it like a standard.  

 

I grew up in an era surrounded by guitar players who made it sport learning rock licks by ear, exactly like it was on the record.  The better you were at it, the cooler you were.  If I wanted to play in bands with those dudes, I had to do the same thing.  But then I got into jazz and realized something different.

[MathOfInsects]

Regarding a new key sounding "wrong"... We actually do remember songs in their original key, and for the small percentage of people that don't, almost none are off by more than a half step in either direction. A tiny percentage. So there's something to that. 

BUT....also, not really. For that split second up front where something might spark a little question, there's the next entire song for it all to make sense and never be noticed again. On the flip side, a singer who can't hit the notes in that key is the gift that keeps on giving all song long. That math seems easy to navigate. 

[Montunoman 2]

1 hour ago, Mills Dude said:

Very true about the BJ tune but it all has to do with the context/era of these tunes.  We've been living in an era since the '60s and earlier with access to cheap recorded music.  Those arrangements and signature licks become a part of the song as much as the melody and lyrics.

 

The GASB or simply standards are mostly songs from the musical theater period 20s - 50s.  They were typically part of a show and in those days there weren't really original cast recordings like we might see from something like Rent or Les Miserables today.  Sure there was recorded music back then but it didn't really become the huge music industry that it is today until the Rock n Roll era with the post-WWII boom and middle class kids going nuts buying records.  

 

The jazz cats picked these tunes based on harmony and melody and if there were any signature licks, they were usually discarded.  For me, the version of My Favorite Things by Coltrane with that intro lick from McCoy Tyner became a signature.  If I ever play that tune, I always add it because it represent the song for me, much like the intro to Just the Way You Are.   The players took these tunes, re-arranged and adapted them for their needs.  Very rarely do we have an original reference point, sure we can find it but most of those songs outlived the play they were written for because they found new life with a different performer.

 

In our more modern world, we've grown up, lived and died, with these recordings that speak to us, so naturally, we're more inclined to want to recreate that exact arrangement.  Most guitarists strive to learn those licks, its become its own thing -- the desire to play that Jimmy Page or whoever lick note for note with the same kind of feel.  

 

That' part of what this thread is all about.  For some, its the recreation of that recorded arrangement even down to the exact key, doing otherwise is sacrilege.  For others, they desire to take a tune, rearrange it and transform it into something different.  There's no wrong answer its just different strokes for different folks.

 

Now with Just The Way You Are, that intro part is drilled into my consciousness as part of the song.  I would argue that the saxophone solo is also..  Whenever I play/sing that song, I always end up humming and playing the sax solo.  Its so iconic its one of those solos that a performer covering the song probably feels obligated to quote most of it.   As I said earlier in this thread, the rhodes intro relies on specific voicings in a specific register.  Moving the whole thing down a 4th or 5th would entirely change the character.  A whole or half step, not so much.  I think BJ these days performs everything a whole step down and happily uses the transpose button to do so.  The only real exception I know of is New York State Of Mind.  I've heard him play a rearranged version of that.   BJ is a legacy act now and its almost an obligation to play those songs as close to the recording as possible.  Thats what the people who pay the exorbitant ticket prices want to hear.    Except for something like New York State .... where he kind of treats it like a standard.  

 

I grew up in an era surrounded by guitar players who made it sport learning rock licks by ear, exactly like it was on the record.  The better you were at it, the cooler you were.  If I wanted to play in bands with those dudes, I had to do the same thing.  But then I got into jazz and realized something different.

Very thoughtful answer, thanks for taking the time to share your insights. That all makes sense, but I personally would rather hear a singer/band put their own stamp on a cover. If I really want to hear the original I can  pull it up on YouTube or whatever in seconds. As you point out even BJ is changing keys in his live shows, and many famous groups change up the arrangement live too. If done right, the new arrangement can be fresh and inspiring. 

 

Speaking of that, did anyone hear Camila Cabello performance of Havana on "The Voice". For me, it was way better than the original. I don't think she changed the key, but the new arrangement had more traditional Cuban sound to it. 

 

 

 

[Reezekeys]

Any band playing live trying to exactly recreate an original recording is bound to fail, in most cases, if only because studio recordings involve overdubs or studio trickery that's hard to pull off live. I guess the payoff is seeing how close they can get - but for all that effort, why not adapt the song to fit the sound of the band (including the vocal range of the singers)? I would be more impressed hearing a band doing that than just copying. Therein lies the rub, I think - it takes imagination and superior musicianship (which often go hand in hand) to do the former, while the skill set required to do the latter may not be as demanding. I do understand that tribute bands are a special case, so my viewpoint may not apply there! My .02.

 

Oh yea... this thread: keys should fit the singers. Yes, signature licks or voicings may sound different/strange when transposed too far from their original key. Such is life - pick another tune if it's bothersome, I say. Now that's my .04!

[KuruPrionz]

15 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Any live band trying to exactly recreate an original recording is bound to fail, in most cases, if only because most studio recordings involve overdubs or studio trickery that's hard to pull off live. I guess the payoff is seeing how close they can get - but for all that effort, why not adapt the song to fit the sound of the band (including the vocal range of the singers)? I would be more impressed hearing a band doing that than just copying. Therein lies the rub, I think - it takes imagination and superior musicianship (which often go hand in hand) to do the former, while the skill set required to do the latter may not be as demanding. I do understand that tribute bands are a special case, so my viewpoint may not apply there! My .02.

 

Oh yea... this thread: keys should fit the singers. Yes, signature licks or voicings may sound different/strange when transposed too far from their original key. Such is life - pick another tune if it's bothersome, I say. Now that's my .04!

Great post! Was in a Country Top 40 band for about 9 months and one evening Jeff, the male lead singer, came up to me and said "Michael, you are not playing that guitar part in the intro of the Shania Twain song." I said "Jeff, which guitar part do you want me to play? There are acoustic guitar(s), there's a pedal steel guitar, there's a lead guitar and a harmony lead guitar, that's 4 or 5 guitars at least." He just stared at me in disbelief. I went ahead and learned the main lead guitar part and that was the end of it.

 

That speaks to what you are saying about records vs. live acts. We had a male and female lead singer, drums, bass, guitar and keyboards. Shania Twain had more or less the country equivalent of an orchestra when she recorded.

 

The keyboardist did not solo, which left me to pick up all the solos, be they piano, fiddle, harmonica, pedal steel or whatever. And that's OK, if we stretch we can improve. The dance floor was active, people had fun. Maybe a stray musician coming in once in a while noticed that we "didn't sound like the record" but nobody said a word and I wouldn't have cared if they did. If anything, I would have handed them my guitar and said "So show me how it's done." Nobody ever gets to the point in music that there is nothing left to learn, I'm open. 

[stoken6]

14 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

which [...] part do you want me to play? There are acoustic guitar(s), there's a pedal steel guitar, there's a lead guitar and a harmony lead guitar, that's 4 or 5 guitars at least

Round these parts, that's keyboard player talk.

 

You'll fit right in, boy.

 

🙂 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Outkaster]

On 10/11/2022 at 3:29 PM, KuruPrionz said:

Hmmm...

Hmmm what?

[cassdad]

>>>>>WARNING:  Controversial content follows: <<<<<<

 

OK, my 2 cents, which I’ve shared with many a musician (and some non-musicians):

 

1). My word for trying to exactly duplicate the “original” recording is:  “Regurgitation”.  Guess that adequately explains what I really think of that.

2). Also - if folks want to listen to regurgitation, they can (and do) simply hire a DJ.  IMO, regurgitation defeats the purpose, and advantage, of live music.  And that includes insisting on “the original key”.  So let’s stop trying to put live music out of business, and play to live music’s strengths!  Show them live can be better than the original recording.

3). As already noted in this thread, even the “original” artists often change the song key (and arrangement) when they play live.  Again, don’t take away the advantage and excitement of live music!

4). On a more complex level:  When the original artist writes / 1st records a song, it is optimized for THEIR voice, THEIR vocal range, THEIR instrumentation, licks, etc.  In other words, the original artist / band is playing to THEIR OWN personal strengths.  Not yours or mine.  IMO, expecting anyone else to have all the same strengths is unrealistic, and a fools’ errand to try.

 

Yes, OK, capture the spirit, the flavor, the fun or whatever of the original song, but why not do it in a manner playing to our own strengths?   Dare I say, maybe we as musicians could make the song EVEN BETTER if we played to our own strengths?!

 

My 2 cents.  YMMV.

[Delaware Dave]

1 hour ago, cassdad said:

>>>>>WARNING:  Controversial content follows: <<<<<<

 

OK, my 2 cents, which I’ve shared with many a musician (and some non-musicians):

 

1). My word for trying to exactly duplicate the “original” recording is:  “Regurgitation”.  Guess that adequately explains what I really think of that.

2). Also - if folks want to listen to regurgitation, they can (and do) simply hire a DJ.  IMO, regurgitation defeats the purpose, and advantage, of live music.  And that includes insisting on “the original key”.  So let’s stop trying to put live music out of business, and play to live music’s strengths!  Show them live can be better than the original recording.

3). As already noted in this thread, even the “original” artists often change the song key (and arrangement) when they play live.  Again, don’t take away the advantage and excitement of live music!

4). On a more complex level:  When the original artist writes / 1st records a song, it is optimized for THEIR voice, THEIR vocal range, THEIR instrumentation, licks, etc.  In other words, the original artist / band is playing to THEIR OWN personal strengths.  Not yours or mine.  IMO, expecting anyone else to have all the same strengths is unrealistic, and a fools’ errand to try.

 

Yes, OK, capture the spirit, the flavor, the fun or whatever of the original song, but why not do it in a manner playing to our own strengths?   Dare I say, maybe we as musicians could make the song EVEN BETTER if we played to our own strengths?!

 

My 2 cents.  YMMV.

 

The topic isn't about whether to do the song in the original key or not.  The question on the table is when a band WANTS to do the song in a different key that it is either written in (ex. the song is written in A but the singer can't sing it in A, but can in G#) then, as a player, do you learn the song in A and transpose down 1 step or do you learn the song in G#.  What if you already learned the song in A by having played it in 10 other bands, do you relearn the song (and potentially a complicated lead) in G# or do you just hit the transpose button on your keyboard and comfortably play it in the key it is either written in or in a key you may have learned it in previously.  What happens if you play an analog instrument like an acoustic piano, rhodes, wurli, clav, hammond, etc. where there is no transpose feature?  These are the issue being asked for opinions.  

 

So I ask you, you play a song in A, you're asked to audition for a band and they tell you that they do that song in G#.  You play that song in a different band already and you learned it in A. The lead is complex but years of playing it you now got that lead down (in A).  Do you go relearn the song in G# (and learn that complicated lead on the black keys) or do you transpose the keyboard and play it comfortably?   2nd question, which is the same as the first question but there are 6 songs like that rather than one, what's your answer? 

 

 

 

[stoken6]

34 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

The topic isn't about whether to do the song in the original key or not.  The question on the table is when a band WANTS to do the song in a different key that it is either written in

Thank you.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Bobbo Fett]

I was simply responding to the post that stated that you should ALWAYS play the song in the original key. I realize that was an OT comment to begin with, but I also felt that it's an important concept to address... Apologies for helping to run this off the rails.....

[cassdad]

3 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

 

The topic isn't about whether to do the song in the original key or not.  The question on the table is when a band WANTS to do the song in a different key that it is either written in (ex. the song is written in A but the singer can't sing it in A, but can in G#) then, as a player, do you learn the song in A and transpose down 1 step or do you learn the song in G#.  What if you already learned the song in A by having played it in 10 other bands, do you relearn the song (and potentially a complicated lead) in G# or do you just hit the transpose button on your keyboard and comfortably play it in the key it is either written in or in a key you may have learned it in previously.  What happens if you play an analog instrument like an acoustic piano, rhodes, wurli, clav, hammond, etc. where there is no transpose feature?  These are the issue being asked for opinions.  

 

So I ask you, you play a song in A, you're asked to audition for a band and they tell you that they do that song in G#.  You play that song in a different band already and you learned it in A. The lead is complex but years of playing it you now got that lead down (in A).  Do you go relearn the song in G# (and learn that complicated lead on the black keys) or do you transpose the keyboard and play it comfortably?   2nd question, which is the same as the first question but there are 6 songs like that rather than one, what's your answer? 

 

 

 

I hit the button to transpose it.  easy peasy.

[Chris Link]

I’ve found two problems with using the transpose button. 
 

1) The classic “forget-to-un-transpose” train wreck. To make it worse, ask WTF is wrong with everyone else. 
 

2) More than 2-3 half steps change creates a disconnect between what my fingers are doing and what my ears are hearing. This happened when the diva showed up for one rehearsal before a big one-off gig and blithely informed us of her key changes.
 

Stereotypes may not always be true, but they almost always contain a kernel of truth! 

[MathOfInsects]

It's about time we had a conversation about the Transpose button around here.

[Polychrest]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

It's about time we had a conversation about the Transpose button around here.

To help this conversation metastasize in that direction, here’s a handy noun to fling at those poor wretches who find themselves compelled use the Transpose button:  transposeurs.  🤡

[jazzpiano88]

On 10/7/2022 at 3:26 PM, Reezekeys said:

 

Unless you're cursed with perfect pitch!

I have this problem if it is transposed more than a half or whole step.   I go back to playing the true keys, esp. if transposed a 3rd 4th or 5th.

 

Getting beyond the need for any transposition is the perfect motivation to practice playing and perfecting all of your repertoire in all 12 keys effortlessly.   They say getting all of these comfortably under your fingers will lead not only to mastery of playing by ear, but also will lead to new harmonic discoveries in your improvisations, chord vocabulary and substitutions.

 

I need to get busy!

[Stokely]

Man I'm glad it doesn't bother me that we aren't hearing our songs in their recorded key*, because the entire band tunes down one half step!

Our guitarist does a lot of singing and he can have 5-7 gigs a week counting solo stuff, so every little bit helps when saving your voice.

I sing a version of Some Kind of Wonderful that in the end is a step and half down (because I'm a baritone).  We play in C and are tuned down.  I get a lot of compliments over that one, I don't try to do the screaming (our lead singer does the higher part in the chorus) and people are happy.   On the flip side, I sing Don't you forget about me and the bridge is borderline too low when tuned down! 

After being in a pretty good band for 10 years I'd have a ton of requirements if I ever had to move on, but playing songs in their normal key doesn't make the list.  We all have our pet peeves which is fine     For example, all I have to hear is "tracks" and it's "show me the door".

[Delaware Dave]

15 hours ago, cassdad said:

I hit the button to transpose it.  easy peasy.

 

Same here.....

[Delaware Dave]

14 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

It's about time we had a conversation about the Transpose button around here.

 

LOL

11 hours ago, JazzPiano88 said:

I have this problem if it is transposed more than a half or whole step.   I go back to playing the true keys, esp. if transposed a 3rd 4th or 5th.

 

Getting beyond the need for any transposition is the perfect motivation to practice playing and perfecting all of your repertoire in all 12 keys effortlessly.   They say getting all of these comfortably under your fingers will lead not only to mastery of playing by ear, but also will lead to new harmonic discoveries in your improvisations, chord vocabulary and substitutions.

 

I need to get busy!

 

You have fun with that....

[Stokely]

Well, he does have a point...learn to play all keys!  I realize this is getting far afield.  I'm a good example of someone who has not learned to play well in certain keys.  I can play chords in a rock band, all the inversions etc but soloing?  Yeah not great.  I remember our singer turned and said "let's hear some keys!" on Gimme One Reason--the thing is in F# so let's just say that was a pretty tame solo.  Probably one of my better ones come to think of it, I don't typically take (or want to take) a solo at all other than built-in ones like Call me the Breeze or Carry on Wayward son    and the word that comes to mind when describing my solo technique is "spastic"..."enthusiastic" if you are being kind.

[KuruPrionz]

On 10/12/2022 at 8:16 PM, Outkaster said:

Hmmm what?

Hmmm... you went from an absolute statement to a more "maybe" stance (which is at least somewhat reasonable).

How many of us cover tunes as solo acts? I'm guessing quite a few. I do it and don't even consider the key or the precise arrangement of the original song to be anything other than their version of that song. If it's a good song, it can easily stand up well to multiple interpretations by people who play music the way they play music.

 

Otherwise, as others have said above - why not just play the record? At least that will sound "just like the record". Tribute bands? I'll take a hard pass, I'm nobody's robot.