Crumar Seventeen Review

[Scazbot]

I purchased a Crumar Seventeen a couple of weeks ago and I thought I’d share my thoughts on this newest board from Crumar in case anyone else was intrigued.

 

Background

Why I bought this board: I needed a piano. Straight up. I have other boards that can do many things but I wanted one that would serve mainly as a piano and have some excellent vintage key sounds. This board is for those straight up piano gigs like jazz combo/big band, country, blues/rock shows. In the past I’ve always enjoyed using something cheap, think Casio, that had a decent piano sound but I wouldn’t be fussed if some drunk knocked it off the stage right before baptizing it with beer. Light, easy to use, not to picky with the action, but responsive, decent piano sounds. Say what you will about the piano sound but those boards delivered something a damn sight better than what we had in the 90’s or the 80’s; and all in a cheap, $500, plastic shell, that weighed no more than 25 or 26 pounds. These final details are the reason I have always had at least one board of this nature in my rotation.

 

Enter the Crumar Seventeen. I look at this as my new grab-n-go gig board. The selling points for me were its improvement over all those old Casios: it was reasonably priced and definitely nicer and in a different league than my old gigging pianos; it had a stepped up exterior with better build quality (its no tank but she’s sturdy); and low and behold she weighs about 26 pounds and as a bonus all you need is a few pounds of legs and she has her own stand. But most of all the sounds are a damn sight better than many of the rom-pler boards of recent years. With a fair amount of flexibility built in to help you dial in each sound.

 

The action is heavy. I knew this going in and was totally fine with that. I’ve been using a Korg Vox Continental quite frequently for about a year and a half and this was going to be an adjustment. After playing the Seventeen for a few hours each day I warmed up to the action in about 3 days. The more important factor was using some of those editing features to increase the sample volume or change the velocity of a given sample so I didn’t have to mess with changing the touch setting on the keyboard. I’ve always found that the original “Normal” touch setting is the one keyboard manufacturers seem to dial in during the design stages and other settings leave me wanting. I will say this, the keys are sturdy. They give the impression they will last for many years to come.

 

Those newly recorded piano sounds are excellent. They sound great out of my studio monitors with their flat stereo response and they sound excellent summing to mono out of my QSC K10.2 (which is precisely how I will gig with this board). The D-274 Grand is colorful and really a pleasure to play and the C5 is vibrant and cuts through the mix. The Rhodes Electric Tine sound is lovely. There are multiple adjustments that can be made to help you create the Electric Tine sound you want to hear. Also, a couple of those expansion pianos are pretty cool too. If you like old electric grands those are excellent as well. Clavs are solid and sound great. Honestly there isn’t a sound I am disappointed in because it either sounds great out of the gate or I can punch it up a little to my liking via the editor.

 

Speaking of adjustments here is the various options, in order as they appear on the screen, that you can change to dial in sounds.

 

Select Sound (contains all the sounds but starts with the currently selected one); FX1 on/off; FX1 Mode (Mono Trem, Auto Panner, LFO Wha, Auto Wha); FX1 Depth, Speed; FX2 (same) with different Mode (Chorus, Flanger, Phaser1, Phaser2)

 

Amp Switch on/off; Amp Drive; Amp Model (Twin, AC, JCM, RJC, Bass)

 

DLY level, time, f. back, type (Mono or Ping-pong); Reverb Level, Decay, Type (Default, Hall 1, Hall 2, Studio, Room, Stadium, Tunnel, Church, Cathedral)

 

EQ Bass, Treble, Middle, Mid. Freq

 

EP Type (Default epiano, Mellow Tone, Hard Tine, Wanna-be-dyno, So Dark, Prepared, Sweet, Piano Bass, Wurlish); EP Wood Level, Felt Level, Hammer Tips, Bite-n-Bark, Metallic, Resonances, Pickup Offset, Hi-pass, Pedal Noise

 

SMP Level, Attack, Release, Filter, Velocity, Piano Resonances, Rel. Level, Pedal Level

 

Save Preset (Bank/Slot); Import/Export Preset (via USB drive)

 

Midi Ch Rx/Tx, Ch. Local Off, CC Send/Receive, PC Send/Receive, Soft Thru

 

Velocity Curve: Lighter, Light, Normal, Hard, Harder

 

Global Tuning (440Hz); Screen Light Intensity (Dark, Soft, Med, Normal, Bright)

 

Exp. Install/Uninstall; Free Memory (5.2 GB); Firmware Update; Factory Reset

 

Most of these have adjustments 0-127 but a few are obviously adjusted in Hz or milliseconds.

 

Sounds are laid out across 8 banks. Only 6 of which have sounds in them when you buy the board. Banks 7 and 8 can be used for saving your own sounds. Though, you can save a sound to any bank/slot.

 

I like the look of her and I understand if there is a contingent of folks here who will never much care to be reminded of the crap they hauled around in the 70’s and 80’s. Though compared to a real Rhodes this thing is a streamlined butterfly. The tolex is tastefully done and there were no blemishes or defects of any kind on the board that I bought.

 

The legs are a bit tricky to get started but I don’t foresee any problems with accidentally stripping the screws. It’s really just a matter of getting them started which, again, takes a minute. Once the legs are on the board feels very sturdy and well supported as I play.

 

If you are looking for a piano/vintage keyboard (sans organ) this is the one for you. I still do a fair amount of straight up piano/electric piano gigs. So this fits the bill for a nice grab-n-go board for me.

 

Post script: In a strange way I feel manuals sell keyboards now more than anything else because most local music stores are gone. A good manual will lay out everything the board has to offer and often lay out the basics of dialing in cool sounds or effects you may not have realized it was capable of doing/creating/combining. I’m sure Crumar will make one at some point for this board but I just wanted to put something up for reference in case the above info is of any interest to anyone here.

[Adan]

At under $1600 US it seems like a very good value, especially considering inflation.  EPs of that quality generally aren't found in boards costing less.  To be fair, the TP100 action should be judged against others in its weight class.  Would be interesting to play side by side with the Numa Piano X 73.  

[AUSSIEKEYS]

Thanks for the interesting review

[AnotherScott]

13 hours ago, Adan said:

Would be interesting to play side by side with the Numa Piano X 73.  

For a lightweight hammer action piano-oriented slab that is a step up from the Casios, up to $2k, we've got...

 

73...

Numa X, 25.8 lbs, $1329

Seventeen, 26.5 lbs, $1579
Yamaha CP73, 28.8 lbs, $1999 (at least $400 more than anything else here, though)

 

88...
Kawai ES520, 32 lbs, $1299 (lowest priced option here, but also heaviest)

Kurzweil SP6, 27.25 lbs, $1499

Numa X, 30.9 lbs, $1529

Roland RD88, 29.8 lbs, $1599

 

Roland and Kawai have speakers. I think Seventeen is the only one that can't split/layer, though Kawai is the least flexible overall, in terms of having parameters that can be adjusted (either on the board or via an editor), outside of its piano sound. Seventeen does have unique aesthetics, and I'm among those who find it appealing. But sounds and "FTEC" are big variables...

 

I guess you could also look at category-straddlers, like Yamaha MX88 and Kurzweil PC4 SE.

 

 

[Scazbot]

I appreciate seeing that list of possible keyboard contenders but as I looked it over I realized there was something I may not have mentioned. I paid $1300 all in for this board (keyboard price + shipping + customs). That makes it cheaper than all the boards on your list when you consider they all need (tax/shipping). No reason to discount any of them but a good case could be made that the Crumar is a deal.

[jeffincltnc]

5 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

For a lightweight hammer action piano-oriented slab that is a step up from the Casios, up to $2k, we've got...

 

73...

Numa X, 25.8 lbs, $1329

Seventeen, 26.5 lbs, $1579
Yamaha CP73, 28.8 lbs, $1999 (at least $400 more than anything else here, though)

 

88...
Kawai ES520, 32 lbs, $1299 (lowest priced option here, but also heaviest)

Kurzweil SP6, 27.25 lbs, $1499

Numa X, 30.9 lbs, $1529

Roland RD88, 29.8 lbs, $1599

 

 

If there is flexibility on the weight limit, the Korg SV2 73 meets the budget cap as does the Kawai ES920 on the 88 list. Both have their merits.

[1203]

@Scazbot: Thank you for this nice review! I would like to know if it’s possible to place another keyboard (for example a Nord Electro) on the top of the Seventeen? Or is the surface too narrow?

[Scazbot]

That flat plane at the back of the keyboard is 5” deep and runs just about the full width of 43 1/2”. It is flat but I’m sure you would need something clever to support an additional board. Perhaps Crumar will make something like they did with the Seven that allows for an additional, lightweight, keyboard to be placed securely on top of it. Now, if you’re asking the more straight forward, “does that knob on the front stick out so high that it breaks the aforementioned plane”? The answer is yes. I’m afraid that selection know is a smidge higher than the flat topped plane at the back. But only just a little. Placing a small spacer on top of the board would fix that. 

[AnotherScott]

17 minutes ago, Scazbot said:

That flat plane at the back of the keyboard is 5” deep and runs just about the full width of 43 1/2”. It is flat but I’m sure you would need something clever to support an additional board. 

There are some boards that are shallow enough that they could conceivably be stable sitting on something just 5" deep. Maybe a Roland AX-Edge, Yamaha Reface, Modal Cobalt 5S, Elektron Digitone Keys, or the old Korg Microstation...

[Dave Bryce]

8 hours ago, Scazbot said:

I paid $1300 all in for this board (keyboard price + shipping + customs).

Customs? 🤔

 

Are you in the US?  If so, I’m curious which country you bought it from - especially given the Euro to Dollar conversion currently.

 

dB

[Scazbot]

That's a good question. The conversion rate or value differnce between currencies isn't the issue so much as the mark up in the States on certain electronic gear. Thomann  has a US site which simply puts things in US dollars and is geared toward the American market. You can buy a new Seventeen for around $1,100 dollars there. Generally speaking I've found customs charges to be a a bit mysterious but certain countries have very beneficial trade relationships with the US but to name two, try the UK or Germany.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Scazbot said:

That's a good question. The conversion rate or value differnce between currencies isn't the issue so much as the mark up in the States on certain electronic gear. Thomann  has a US site which simply puts things in US dollars and is geared toward the American market. You can buy a new Seventeen for around $1,100 dollars there. Generally speaking I've found customs charges to be a a bit mysterious but certain countries have very beneficial trade relationships with the US but to name two, try the UK or Germany.

The US apparently doesn’t charge a customs fee on items less than $800.  Can you elaborate on what you needed to pay in the US on your purchase of $1,100 USD?   Also, what did Thomann want for shipping a box of this size and weight, to what state? 
 

Kraft apparently has one in stock.  They sell it for $1579.00. Tax would be $104.61 and shipping ground is free.  So $1683.61 USD from US dealer.  

[Dave Bryce]

11 hours ago, Scazbot said:

That's a good question. The conversion rate or value differnce between currencies isn't the issue so much as the mark up in the States on certain electronic gear.

 

My experience leads me to believe that dealer margins are pretty much the same globally.  The dealers themselves don’t determine the markup.

 

Some dealers do occasionally get better pricing from some manufacturers though, depending on the relationship/quantity they buy.

 

11 hours ago, Scazbot said:

Thomann  has a US site which simply puts things in US dollars and is geared toward the American market. You can buy a new Seventeen for around $1,100 dollars there. Generally speaking I've found customs charges to be a a bit mysterious but certain countries have very beneficial trade relationships with the US but to name two, try the UK or Germany.

 

Interesting.  What does Thomann do about warranty repair?

 

Reason I ask: I’ve owned several Crumar keyboards and modules.  I no longer do, because every one of them broke/developed operational issues.  Made taking them on gigs a bit risky. 😬

 

Too bad, too - for the most part, I really liked the way they sounded.  The Seven was a major fave of mine before it broke - twice. 😒
 

dB

[Mighty Motif Max]

36 minutes ago, David Bryce said:

 

Interesting.  What does Thomann do about warranty repair?

 

Reason I ask: I’ve owned several Crumar keyboards and modules.  I no longer do, because every one of them broke/developed operational issues.  Made taking them on gigs a bit risky. 😬

 

Too bad, too - for the most part, I really liked the way they sounded.  The Seven was a major fave of mine before it broke - twice. 😒
 

dB

 

From my interactions with Thomann when I was considering importing a Viscount K4EX:

 

Quote

This depends, as you noted before, if they would acknowledge warranty in the US if you purchase it from a retailer in Europe. This is something we cant answer as well, unfortunately. Best would be to clarify this with the manufacturer.

However, of course you would have full warranty for 3 years with us.

Following are our general rules of warranty. The one highlighted in red apply for you as well.

Generally speaking, we offer 2 types of warranties in Europe: 30-days Money-back and a 3-year repair warranty. Looking at our website, you will see the corresponding icons next to the article description. Should these icons be missing, you are interested in an item with warranty restrictions. Here are some examples of such products: software products, products sold by meter, items produced by custom specifications, or products that cannot be returned due to hygienic reasons.

30-days Money-back: 

You can return the ordered products back to us during the first 30 days in case you are not satisfied with them or you have ordered the wrong items.

For a return under Money-back guarantee it is essentially important that the items are being sent back in their original packaging, with all accessories and without any signs of use. 

The following regulations apply to EU countries:

The 30 days are split up in 14 days statutory right of withdrawal followed by additional 16 days Thomann Money-back warranty.

Within the first 14 days after receiving the goods, the return is free of charge for you; however we would ask you to please contact us under any circumstance prior to the return and await our instructions.

Within the additional 16 days, the costs for the return from abroad are to be paid by the customer.

The following regulations apply to non-EU countries:

Within our normal 30 days money back warranty from abroad, the return shipping costs are paid by the customer. We would ask you to please contact us under any circumstance prior to the return and await our instructions so that we can provide you with all the necessary documents.

If an item should be defective during the first 30 days, we kindly ask you to get in touch with us directly upon noticing the defect, as during this timeframe we usually have the possibility to replace the defective item. 

3- Years Repair Warranty: 

Thomann GmbH offers an additional year of repair warranty on top of the 2-year manufacturer’s warranty. Should you have any problem with the product within this period of time, please contact us directly. We will then help you to carry out the warranty and inform you in detail about your specific case. 

The return costs for the defective item are being covered by Thomann GmbH. 

Please do not hesitate to contact us in you have any further questions.
 

 

[Delaware Dave]

10 hours ago, David Bryce said:

Interesting.  What does Thomann do about warranty repair?

 

I purchased hardware from Thomann and it came with a 3 year warranty.  The process is that you contact them, they provide an RMA, then you ship to them, they do the repair and ship the item back.

 

I havent had to use the process yet so I only know how it is supposed to work.

 

BTW, Thomann ships you a European style plug, so you need to purchase a European to US plug converter.  They are a couple of bucks, no big deal but you need to be aware.

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

I purchased hardware from Thomann and it came with a 3 year warranty.  The process is that you contact them, they provide an RMA, then you ship to them, they do the repair and ship the item back.

 

I havent had to use the process yet so I only know how it is supposed to work.

 

BTW, Thomann ships you a European style plug, so you need to purchase a European to US plug converter.  They are a couple of bucks, no big deal but you need to be aware.

Hmmm. Is there a switch on the unit to change voltage or the converter is a transformer? 

[drawback]

12 hours ago, David Bryce said:

I’ve owned several Crumar keyboards and modules.  I no longer do, because every one of them broke/developed operational issues.  Made taking them on gigs a bit risky. 😬

 

Too bad, too - for the most part, I really liked the way they sounded.  The Seven was a major fave of mine before it broke - twice. 😒

Disappointing to hear that - I thought their QC problems had been addressed. I had an early Mojo61 + lower that never caused me problems, other than rear chassis holes drilled a hair too small (fixed by circumcising a couple of plugs). I’ve recently had my eye on a Seven. 

[Dave Bryce]

41 minutes ago, drawback said:

Disappointing to hear that - I thought their QC problems had been addressed.

 

I can’t speak to that.  All I can tell you is my own experiences. 

 

 

41 minutes ago, drawback said:

 

I had an early Mojo61 + lower that never caused me problems, other than rear chassis holes drilled a hair too small (fixed by circumcising a couple of plugs).

 

My Mojo61 is the only keyboard I’ve ever owned that decided to randomly spew smoke from it’s interior….and, man - what a smell that made.  Had to air my studio out for a day. 😬 

 

To be fair: like yours, mine was also an early unit.

 

dB

[Scazbot]

20 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

The US apparently doesn’t charge a customs fee on items less than $800.  Can you elaborate on what you needed to pay in the US on your purchase of $1,100 USD?   Also, what did Thomann want for shipping a box of this size and weight, to what state? 
 

Kraft apparently has one in stock.  They sell it for $1579.00. Tax would be $104.61 and shipping ground is free.  So $1683.61 USD from US dealer.  

 

The board was $1,100 and then a touch under $100 for shipping (I believe it was $95) and $76 in customs. Customs doesn't just charge whatever, they rarely charge up to 15% of the value of the good. So you can expect it to be less than that usually. I live in Minnesota and the board shipped from Germany (country of origin is not always the location of the shop sometimes it is sent directly from where it is manufactured) and it came into port around Philadelphia (yes I know that's not on the ocean but it is where many goods directly off loaded in New York wind up). They dinged me for the money on Friday and I had the board on Wednesday morning.

[ElmerJFudd]

Thanks.  That clarifies a lot.  It would seem that if one is not worried about support from a dealer, something like a Crumar or a Nord which might have a pretty significant price difference between EU and US, Thomann is worth consideration.  
 

>>>Example:

Thomann's price on Nord Wave 2 - $2139.   $84 shipping is NOT bad from Europe or the UK.   (I don't know how they offer that, I know if I sell something on eBay and open the bidding to Europe, shipping for private people is not wallet friendly).   Say, $200 customs fee on an item that expensive.  $2423.

 

Sweetwater sells the Nord Wave at $2899 free shipping.  US tax... let's say around 7% depending on the state.  That's $3112.<<<

 

Yamaha, Korg, Kawai, Roland - we seem to make out better here in the US as far as street price.  And it’s not hard for us to find manufacturer certified repair shops for these 4 nearby.  

[Doerfler]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Thanks.  That clarifies a lot.  It would seem that if one is not worried about support from a dealer, something like a Crumar or a Nord which might have a pretty significant price difference between EU and US, Thomann is worth consideration.  
 

 

there are manufacturers that have contractual agreements with distributors to cover certain areas of the globe we live on. Clavia is one of them. Thomann cannot ship a Nord keyboard to the USA. This is just one of many examples

[ElmerJFudd]

[Doerfler]

I thought I had already stated that.    

[ElmerJFudd]

I’m curious about where the fat in the US pricing of the Nord Wave 2, as the example, comes from?  US customs fees, the US distributor’s cut, the dealer’s markup?  Or is it more simply what the market will bear in the US.  

[Dave Bryce]

Global pricing policies are mostly the domain of the manufacturer.  There are a bunch of factors that are difficult to control, and some do a better job of it than others.  

 

I’d say the biggest factor is probably distributor cut.  Distributors (are supposed to) handle things in their countries like import, warehousing, sales force, marketing, trade shows and service.  That ain’t cheap. It’s much easier for a manufacturer to handle these things in their own country/continent than it is internationally.

 

Typically, bigger companies are better at maintaining a global pricing balance than smaller companies (as Elmer observed) simply because they have more resources.  The main reason the bigger companies have less of an issue with global pricing is that they usually are their own distributor internationally (think Yamaha US, Korg USA, Roland US).

 

dB

 

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, David Bryce said:

Global pricing policies are mostly the domain of the manufacturer.  There are a bunch of factors that are difficult to control, and some do a better job of it than others.  

 

I’d say the biggest factor is probably distributor cut.  Distributors (are supposed to) handle things in their countries like import, warehousing, sales force, marketing, trade shows and service.  That ain’t cheap. It’s much easier for a manufacturer to handle these things in their own country/continent than it is internationally.

 

Typically, bigger companies are better at maintaining a global pricing balance than smaller companies (as Elmer observed) simply because they have more resources.  The main reason the bigger companies have less of an issue with global pricing is that they usually are their own distributor internationally (think Yamaha US, Korg USA, Roland US).

 

dB

 

On the other hand, if living in the EU one would have to factor in 21% VAT on a luxury item. 
 

$2139 * .21 = $449.19, so $2588.19.  Still better than our $3112.

 

 https://americanmusicandsound.com/

[Dave Bryce]

15 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

On the other hand, if living in the EU one would have to factor in 21% VAT on a luxury item. 

 

True dat.

 

Like I said - there are a bunch of factors that are difficult to control.

 

dB

[bjosko]

I think I am lucky when it comes to Nord, living in one of the places where it is “cheap”.

See www.digitalpiano.com as an example, here in Denmark a Wave 2 ticks in at USD 2345.- with tax, NS3/88 $3296.-

I thought it would be cheaper in Nord land = Sweden, but no.

Compared to other brands, it is not so luxury, still a bit in the high end.
I am buying most of my stuff from Thomann in Germany, but not when it came to Nord.

I think they are priced after what they think the market will pay for it, individual in each area.

Otherways it might be a very high tax on Swedish steel ( or should it be spelled steal ? 🤔🤑).

 

Back to Seventeen. I wish them luck, hopefully we will later se them with the new TP110. 
I have not tried the Seventeen, but understand it have the same action as the Seven that I bought and returned, mainly because of the heavy action.

[Delaware Dave]

On 7/31/2022 at 11:53 AM, ElmerJFudd said:

Hmmm. Is there a switch on the unit to change voltage or the converter is a transformer? 

I may not have been clear in my post; the transformer (110-240v) is supplied but the socket that plugs into the wall is European, so you need to purchase this adapter:

 

 

[Adan]

I have  Crumar Seventeen at home now and evaluating whether I'm going to keep it.  At this point I'd say not certain but probably yes.  Here's my review.

 

I had previously owned a Crumar Seven and liked it a lot, kind of regretted getting rid of it.  So I've been thinking about the Seventeen being sold at a much better price point, lighter weight, and because it can be edited from the front panel.  WiFi editing of the Seven was, for me, a negative.

 

Two causes for hesitating: first, like most people I don't love the TP100 action.  But I want a lightweight 73-note hammer action, and in that field I don't really love any of the actions.  Yamaha GHS and Korg RH3 are pretty meh as actions.  There's the new TP110 action in the Numa X, but the epianos in the Numa X don't sound as good as Crumar's based on Youtube videos.  One of the main issues with TP100 is just how heavy it is, but that becomes a non-issue after a few days practice, and an upside to a heavy digital action is your fingers are stronger for any acoustic piano you run into.

 

The other hesitation was Crumar reliability, because I had issues with my Seven.  But a discounted demo Seventeen with the Sweetwater 2-year warranty allows me to feel I'm taking less of a risk.  I've always had a weak spot for boutique italian brands, having owned Alfa Romeos and Moto Guzzi motorcycles, so I'm the type who makes these imprudent decisions and learns to live with them.

 

So on to the review.  The rhodes is modeled, everything else is sampled.  The rhodes is, in my opinion, the raison d'etre of the Seventeen.  The sound and feel is so realistic, I can close my eyes and imagine I'm playing the real thing.  Not quite, but amazingly close.  There's a depth to it that's very tangible under the fingers.  As with the Seven, you can adjust the modeling to sound like any rhodes you've ever heard.

 

The rest of the sounds are ok, very useable, but not in the same league as the rhodes.  The AP sounds good through my amp and headphones, but doesn't give nearly the same playing experience as the rhodes.  Ditto the Wurly and everything else.  

 

Hard for me to remember how I felt about the non-rhodes modeled sounds on the Seven, but I recall them all being not as impressive as the rhodes.  So I kinda see the philosophy of the Seventeen: Crumar took the best modeled instrument from the Seven, used samples for everything else, and lowered the price and weight.  If you think of the Seventeen as a 26-pound digital rhodes that approaches the sound and feel of the real thing and don't have high expectations for the other sounds, you might find it very satisfying.

 

It's a handsome keyboard in person with the blue and black Tolex.  Editing is easy though with one knob and button not great for on-the-fly adjustments.  Strangely, you can't name your patches, but I don't see that as a major issue with a monotimbral piano.  There is only a quick start guide.  Some of the modeling parameters are obvious but some I don't know what they mean so will just have to experiment with them.

 

I wish the Seventeen had the modeled Wurly from the Seven, but again I don't remember being as impressed with it as I was with the rhodes.