The end of MODX?

[Docbop]

13 minutes ago, miden said:

 

But how do you cope with the keys? It's why I had to sell off my MODX 8 - I could not stand the clacky keys any longer

That's what kept me from buying a MoDX even as pretty new keyboardist they drove me nuts. 

[Stokely]

32 minutes ago, miden said:

 

But how do you cope with the keys? It's why I had to sell off my MODX 8 - I could not stand the clacky keys any longer

I have the MODX7, so different keys completely from the weighted one.  If they are clacky I can't hear them live     It's not my favorite action by a long shot but after a week or so I could make it work, even for piano.  Going back to a weighted action after that, now that was an adjustment!   The Modx keyboard is cheap and feels cheap but I've gotten used to it.

I never even noticed "skinny", I guess that's not a thing that bothers me.   Nor the lack of aftertouch really, since at gigs I've never found it all that controllable except on my Virus, which did it better than any keyboard I've ever tried--it was also my favorite non-weighted action overall, beating out the Korg M3 among others.

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

Can anyone comment on how the MODX6/7 keys feel in comparison to the MX line or MOXF6? I played a MODX7 briefly a few years ago but I don't remember much. Strongly considering replacing my MX61 with a MODX7 (since the 6's are unavailable).

 

As far as the discussion on the slightly thinner Yamaha keys goes, I'm not sure that I've really noticed. I have owned a few boards with full-size semiweighted/synth keys (Fantom 7, JV-1000, Krome 61) and I don't really notice much of a difference between them and the MX61 keys. I know it's enough to bug some folks but it's never been something I really noticed unless I fixated on it.

[AnotherScott]

5 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Can anyone comment on how the MODX6/7 keys feel in comparison to the MX line or MOXF6? I played a MODX7 briefly a few years ago but I don't remember much. Strongly considering replacing my MX61 with a MODX7 (since the 6's are unavailable).

 

MOXF6 and MODX6/7 keys are similar, but not identical. The black keys have a matte rather than glossy finish. The landing feels a little firmer, and I think the throw distance may be a bit shorter.

 

5 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

 

As far as the discussion on the slightly thinner Yamaha keys goes, I'm not sure that I've really noticed. I have owned a few boards with full-size semiweighted/synth keys (Fantom 7, JV-1000, Krome 61) and I don't really notice much of a difference between them and the MX61 keys. I know it's enough to bug some folks but it's never been something I really noticed unless I fixated on it.

 

Ditto. The only time I notice is when I'm trying to line its keys up with a "full-size" set of keys beneath.

[pawelsz]

9 hours ago, ProfD said:

The DX7 had regular sized keys and a nice action even when the max velocity was 100. 😁😎

 

I believe that DX7 had same action as Motif and Motif ES series, which are slightly narrower than "standard" ones. It is around one white key loss within 61 key range. Around half the millimeter per single white key. 

 

https://syntaur.com/keys.php?key=K27W

 

In general everything not being a hammer action from Yamaha has this slightly narrower size. 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

It’s a strange decision and they’ve stuck with it for decades. 🤷 one white key less over 61 keys… does this equate to significant material reduction and higher profit margin?  It is weird in theory, irksome even,, but I don’t notice it when playing.  Not even when tiering over with a hammer action board.  

 

Yamaha actions like the DX7 and Montage are premium feeling to play.  The MODX6, not so much.   Although, for me, preferable to what Roland uses on their FA-06, VR-09.   Korg’s cheaper line of keys are as disappointing as others.  Obviously we play what is set in front of us.  But at times it seems they purposefully make crappy actions so we pick the higher end board.  

[Jose EB5AGV]

I had just for some months a Yamaha PSR-EW410. I was unable to get used to its keybed. I have also a Genos among other keyboards, and it was like night and day.

 

As the MODX6 and MODX7 use a similar keybed, I knew it was not an option for me. So, instead of a new MODX7, for a tad more I bought a used Montage 6. And I am glad I did, as the keybed is really good and is my gig rig.

 

I loved it so much that I got another used one (white this time, so my wife can't tell me I have a duplicate 😇) to be permanently on my studio. Adding up both acquisition prices, I got two Montage for the price of one 👍🏻😃

 

Jose

[Stokely]

Used montages are pretty reasonable on GC--my used store of choice--at this point at least.  The used Fantoms are still really high in price, I suppose because they are newer.  If I'd known I'd use the Modx as much as I have I probably would have gone that direction.   I'm really keen on the look of that white version!  I realize the lighter weight and even the wall wart has some benefit but I also appreciate a nicer build quality and don't mind the extra weight, within reason (the weighted one, no way I'd gig that.)  

I agree with the sentiment that it feels like these manufacturers hamstring the lower models just to get people to upgrade, I guess that is a pretty universal tactic no matter what you are buying!

Anyway, if Yamaha is truly preparing for the next model this is not the way they typically have done it, as I mentioned.  Usually both old and new models are still being sold, with the flagship out first.  Perhaps the current environment forced a change.   I'm looking forward to  what they come out with!  Beyond the Montage/Modx, my wishlist would include them adding a synth to the YC line and truly compete with the Stage 3....

[Al Coda]

2 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

 

Yamaha actions like the DX7 and Montage are premium feeling to play.  The MODX6, not so much

 

That´s why I always wanted a MODX rack.

I imagined, a Integra-7 and MODX rack were a nice combo together w/ a powerfull masterkeyboard (usable for a Live-host and DAW too) and a organ action.

I don´t understand why they discontinued the Motif XS rack and didn´t replace w/ MODX.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[ProfD]

4 minutes ago, Al Coda said:

I don´t understand why they discontinued the Motif XS rack and didn´t replace w/ MODX.

I believe manufacturers figured increased polyphony in a light-weight KB was a good compromise for a rackmount tone generator.

 

A rack full of modules presented its own challenges from a live performance perspective. In a studio environment it's a non-issue.

 

I'd imagine the thought is 2 or 3 KBs on a stand that a musician can see is easier to manage than rackmount tone generators. 😎

[Al Coda]

2 minutes ago, ProfD said:

I believe manufacturers figured increased polyphony in a light-weight KB was a good compromise for a rackmount tone generator.

 

A rack full of modules presented its own challenges from a live performance perspective. In a studio environment it's a non-issue.

 

I'd imagine the thought is 2 or 3 KBs on a stand that a musician can see is easier to manage than rackmount tone generators. 😎

 

I always use 3 keyboards AND tone generators,- may these be racks,- or laptop and audio-/MIDI interface w/ power conditioner and mixer in a rack.

It can be a 4U rackmount computer too when I need it.

IMO it´s good choosing from different combo options.

 

Every pro musician I know uses some rackmount gear and many had Yamaha Motif racks in their arsenal since the 1st Motif rack was released.

 

And for me, the opposite is the case,- I can live in my homestudio w/o racks at all,- except my rackmount DAW computers, partially housing DSP cards and controlling S|C XITE-1 1HU rackmount device too.

In the studio, software, combined w/ some vintage gear (Minimoog D and OB Xpander in my case), is king IMO.

With MODX rack FM, I´d replace TG77 and TX816 rack,- that´s 7 HU vs 1HU,- and I don´t use the older FM machines enough anymore.

And,- I didn´t want the MODX´s  action,- last but not least because I have enough keyboard actions in my arsenal anyway !

The Montage keyboard, for me made sense only in 88 keys version, but that´s too large for my needs.

IMO it unneccessary big.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[Stephen Fortner]

If the MODX is draining out of the retail channel, I am almost certain that it’s because Yamaha is working on an updated version like a MODX-S or something. Which implies they’re also working on an updated Montage. No inside information, just my longtime experience of how Yamaha’s product cycles work — If you look at Motif Classic, ES, XS, and XF, plus the lighter and more affordable derivatives like the MO-X and MX series, it scans. Of course there’s the caveat that supply chain issues have changed the rules for just about everyone, so that could be a factor. But I’d bet Yamaha is up to something new.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Since the list of manufactures capable of delivering premium quality actions is so short of course there is a tendency to want to pair their flagship sound engines and feature sets to those actions and price them accordingly.   Offering Montage, Kronos and Fantom as modules, allowing us to get those sounds and features without paying for the premium action, I would imagine, is not an attractive thought to the big three.  Integra surprised me.  They must have seen a specialty market for that one.  
 

But competition and trends force change.  The Roland Cloud and the Korg Collection make it possible to pair actions we find good enough with a laptop.   I’m surprised Yamaha doesn’t feel like they are missing a corner of the market by not having their sound engines in software as subscription which seems to be where everything is going.  At some point kawai felt that developing a software piano controller was a good idea, not to mention cutting a deal with Nord on the Grand. 
 

when racks were in common use Yamaha did sell the storied KX88.  They should also consider offering their NWX or similar and premium synth action in controller keyboards.  But I’m not privy to their internal deliberations.  
 

Personally Id prefer desktop format with large high quality touch screens to racks these days.  If I had a great action controller with lovely real estate on top - that’s where I’d put such a desktop device or devices.  

[ElmerJFudd]

15 minutes ago, Stephen Fortner said:

If the MODX is draining out of the retail channel, I am almost certain that it’s because Yamaha is working on an updated version like a MODX-S or something. Which implies they’re also working on an updated Montage. No inside information, just my longtime experience of how Yamaha’s product cycles work — If you look at Motif Classic, ES, XS, and XF, plus the lighter and more affordable derivatives like the MO-X and MX series, it scans. Of course there’s the caveat that supply chain issues have changed the rules for just about everyone, so that could be a factor. But I’d bet Yamaha is up to something new.

 

I wonder if they’ll be forced to consider a Montage “light” at a more aggressive price point as Korg did with Kronos->Nautilus.  Focus on the stuff the largest part of their user base uses. 
 

An AWM2, AN-X, FM-X capable Board is intriguing whatever route they choose.  

[Fleer]

That’s an interesting point. Maybe they’ll replace Montage as well as MODX in one blow with Montage-X at an in-between price point.

[Docbop]

Well the Yamaha YC is Nord influenced maybe a new MoDee  influenced by Akai MPC Key 61 and a touch of Fantom.  So a Yamaha with a stripe of red like Akai MPC Key 61 and Fantom and more geared for the DIY market.   <grin>

[Stokely]

A hypothetical Montage-X sounds pretty great to me.   I'd think they'd have to be adding something fairly significant to the Montage to do a new version, right?  Analog engine, the b3 engine from the YC....then again, maybe they'll do minor changes just to stay in the news.  I can't remember exactly how much change there was from the Motif to ES to XS but I don't remember it being too major...just "more of the same".  No major new engines I don't think.  Please correct if this is mistaken!

A Modx rack, especially if it kept the audio interface, would be amazing.   

[ElmerJFudd]

I think the major differences Motif to Motif were increasing the ROM size and adding more detail to sample library patches. Multisampling, Key switching.   Motif also allowed additional sound engines via PLG boards that installed in slots internally.   AN, DX, VL, etc. 

 

XS era did away with PLG slots in favor of significantly larger sample sets on fast storage.  
 

Montage brought back their FM engine paired with AWM2 sampling.  Onboard, no need for DSP cards. 
 

Now that Yamaha’s internal DSP is powerful enough to run multiple engines and FX without needing PLG cards for additional processing and polyphony, it makes sense they start bringing their engines back onboard. 
 

Side note:  Somewhere in there they had the EX5 which also attempted to run multiple engines without PLG cards.  It is a very cool Yamaha synth but definitely would have benefited from the processors we have today. 
 

 

[CyberGene]

I loved the sounds in my MODX6 but its interface and programming workflow was inhumane. I used it as a preset keyboard for a while and then sold it. I missed good analog sounds too. 
 

If they manage to implement a much more intuitive workflow oriented towards live musicians where creating a simple split/layer won’t require a PHD and add a proper VA, then I may reconsider purchasing it. 
 

But I’m already happy with my CP88 and believe that’s the type of keyboard I always wanted (complemented with a Hydrasynth). Apparently the workstations are something that is not for me. That being said, I believe a CP/YC instruments with added VA engine would be the perfect all-in-one keyboard, similar to Nord Stage. 
 

BTW, I liked the MODX keyboard. Not sure why so many people bashed it.

[Stokely]

  Shows how we all react differently to things.  I have small amounts of patience for programming sounds and find the Modx pretty easy to use despite a dislike for touch screens.  That said, my patches tend to be reasonably simple.    Flip side, I'm having a much harder time on my Forte.

I was able to get some decent "analog" performances by starting over from the element level.   Oberheim or Prophet, no, but good enough for use in a band.   Almost all the stock patches were not usable for me doing vintage classic rock.  I think of all the built-in mono synths I found one performance that sounded good to my ears, it tends to be my starting point for new ones.
 

[Jose EB5AGV]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

BTW, I liked the MODX keyboard. Not sure why so many people bashed it.

 

Have you played a Montage or Genos?. The difference IMO is huge. But of course keybeds are a very personal thing and what is nice to me could not do for you 🙃

[pjd]

22 hours ago, pjd said:

The MX refresh is an interesting case. Some of the Yamaha boards use Yamaha proprietary ICs, e.g., SWL or SWX, processors. Yamaha periodically does a redesign update on each of these lines, e.g., SWX06 to SWX08. When production inventory is exhausted, they need to re-spin end product to use the newer part.  I believe that was the case with the MX refresh. In terms of unit volume, MX probably outsells MODX and Montage, thanks to its low selling point. Yamaha doesn't put any development effort into MX (not even the Motif XF sound set to this point in time!) and the margin is gravy.

 

A follow-up thought...

 

Yamaha's mid- to upper-end keyboard products have a vulnerable supply dependency on Asahi Kasei Microdevices (AKM) DACs and ADCs. (Toyota is also a top customer.) The AKM factory fire was worse than originally thought and production is still not back on-line. Renesas has offered to manufacture AKM devices. The Yamaha UK site has the disclaimer, "Due to the difficulty in procuring semiconductors and procuring parts worldwide, some of our product area deliveries may be delayed. Thank you for your understanding."

 

MODX, etc. unavailability may still be due to supply chain issues, most notably, AKM. Just for consideration...

 

-- pj

 

[EscapeRocks]

I'm still going with the parts supply issues, that even Yamaha mentioned in their annual report

 

Heck, even Roland is having a hard time keeping up with the Fantom and Fantom-0 demand, and they certainly haven't discontinued.   They, too, say it's the IC issues, among other things.

It was a big deal when my "guy" called me to say the -08 was back in stock and shipping to me.  I waited about a month after the initial stock pretty much sold out everywhere.

Some of the big boys are showing a 5 to 6 week delay on Fantom and Fantom 0 right now

 

As far as MODX, I loved mine. I had both a MODX8 and MODX6.

But remember, I'm the weird guy here who gets along with pretty much any keybed.

I sold/traded, when I went back to Mainstage and Gig Performer.

 

 

 

[CyberGene]

8 hours ago, EB5AGV said:

 

Have you played a Montage or Genos?. The difference IMO is huge. But of course keybeds are a very personal thing and what is nice to me could not do for you 🙃

Haven’t played one, only compared their keyboards side by side turned off. The Montage is of course nicer feeling. But it’s too expensive…

 

I have regularly played piano and Rhodes on the MODX6 and it was more than acceptable. To me that was enough. I’m not sure I was willing to pay more than two times the price for a better synth action. I’m more picky about hammer actions. If it’s synth actions, we’ll, they all suck 😀 

[Mighty Motif Max]

19 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

MOXF6 and MODX6/7 keys are similar, but not identical. The black keys have a matte rather than glossy finish. The landing feels a little firmer, and I think the throw distance may be a bit shorter.

 

 

Ditto. The only time I notice is when I'm trying to line its keys up with a "full-size" set of keys beneath.

That's about the only time I notice too. Even on my old YS200 from 1987, same situation.

 

Thanks for the refresher on the keys. I've put my MX up for sale, so we'll see.

[Al Coda]

6 hours ago, EscapeRocks said:

I'm the weird guy here who gets along with pretty much any keybed

 

 

Yeah, that´s good.

But according to my experience, the so called "better" and more expensive actions normally are mechanically more reliable than the cheaper ones.

And I like to keep my keys when these are good and I got used to play ´em.

That´s why I prefer buying a rack/desktop module when it´s time upgrading soundengines because of sonic quality and optimized functionality.

 

It´s cumbersome adapting to new actions consistently when buying a new piece of gear.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[kaptainkeys]

2 hours ago, Al Coda said:

Yeah, that´s good.

But according to my experience, the so called "better" and more expensive actions normally are mechanically more reliable than the cheaper ones.

And I like to keep my keys when these are good and I got used to play ´em.

That´s why I prefer buying a rack/desktop module when it´s time upgrading soundengines because of sonic quality and optimized functionality.

 

It´s cumbersome adapting to new actions consistently when buying a new piece of gear.

I totally agree about the module thing, I'd much rather keep a keyboard action I like around for years rather than upgrade it just to get a better sound engine.

There's a reason so many pros stuck with their KX88s until the early 2000s, they were just great, reliable controllers with an action that they liked.

[Dockeys]

Thomann has the modx6 and 8 “temporarily not available”. Modx7 still for sale. Could mean anything. Similar thing happened every couple of years with the Kronos and that kept selling for years after. 

[Fleer]

I’m putting my money on Saul from yamahamusicians.com: when he says MODX is getting replaced, I’m in. 

[MotiDave]

I read this a week ago on FB.  I still don’t believe it.  Bonner is the one source in the globe that has secret info on Yamaha’s inner grand business strategies?   yeah … no.