Is it still worth getting a Kronos in 2022?

[jeffincltnc]

I am going to take a position as the keyboardist in an existing 80’s new wave performance band that is already booked and gigging.  There is plenty of material in there ranging from Tears for Fears, The Cars, Depeche Mode, INXS, Duran Duran so as far as fit, it is definitely material I can prepare quickly and it’s a big centerpiece of the band’s playing.

A local player here offered me a straight up trade for his new and perfect condition Kronos 2 61 for my Nord Wave 2, which is either an equal value trade or maybe slightly favors getting the Kronos.   Both are 61 key boards for second tier with aftertouch and surface controls but very different.

I find the Nord Wave 2 to be ridiculously simple to layer and make sounds without menu diving and nothing ever sounds bad on it, although it’s pretty simple and not a particular deep instrument either.  I could probably get a lot of perfectly usable sounds on it for this band.

 

I also think a Kronos might just give me a lot more presets and sounds to work from in the box, too, or I could buy a bunch of Narfsounds libraries and have the work done for me for a lot of tunes.  I don’t get brownie points for doing it myself to play covers.

 

I’ve always loved the sounds of a Kronos but not the UI as much.  But I don’t think I should be so quick to turn down a mint Kronos 2 61 to throw into this rig either.

 

The Nautilus isn’t for me.  I’m a bit hesitant on getting a Kronos in 2022.  It’s discontinued.  The core tech inside is dated and I am not sure how serviceable it is or reliable compared to how much Nord stuff I have that has never not booted up every time.

 

If I had a Kronos 61 I wouldn’t necessarily dump it by any means but I don’t know if I am practically speaking way too late to the party to get one now in 2022.  I kind of passed on it when I got a Fantom 8 but it might be the right tool for this particular job and hopefully keep some form of resale value.

 

Thoughts on an almost new Kronos now?

[ElmerJFudd]

I don’t see Korg or anyone else putting a high end workstation like the Kronos out in 2022.  If you don’t want to get into gigging a MacBook and MainStage it’s still the most flexible choice imho.  Montage, Fantom, Stage 3 are all excellent choices and you can ask the same question of those as well.  But the Kronos - most capable choice compared to going laptop.  

[CEB]

There is nothing else available in the hardware market that can replace the Kronos for what I use it for.  Nothing without going heavily into various software solutions. Then I would want a controller with on deck controls similar to a Kronos or a K series Kurz.

 

The only shortcoming of the Kronos is it should have a little more pedal  i/o.  It really needed a second assignable CV pedal input and another assignable switch would be handy to use as a decrement for when you accidentally double tap the increment pedal jumping over the combi you need in SetList.  .

[Moonglow]

I'm a (biased) Kronos user for going on ten years. It comes with a lot of excellent factory programs for popular 80's songs, of which I have dipped into not only for the designated tune, but also as a starting point for songs that may feature a similar sound (I have observed considerable overlap here). The nine onboard engines offer a lot of variety, and outside of acoustic piano, I really don't see a workstation-type board that is heads-and-tails above it. Although the knobs/buttons/faders can be programmed as you desire, outside of the faders for volume and the pitch bend/modulation stick, I don't need a lot of hands-on controls for live performance. I program all of my sounds in advance to get them exactly as I like, place them in the Setlist function, and then step through the songs at the gig. I can usually develop a singe Combination (using splits/layers, if needed) for an entire song. If you need/enjoy a lot of in-the-moment tweaking when playing, be prepared to spend some time programming this stuff in the Kronos, or find an axe that is more ready-made for this purpose. The Fantom seems like a good compromise in this regard, with extensive programming options, Setlist-type feature, and more hands-on knobs, although I do understand your Fantom 8 would be a beast to transport.

 

 

 

 

[Outkaster]

Yes for sure. I have two.

[drawback]

+1 on Moonglow's post. 

 

The Kronos is very tempting but for cover band gig where you may be doing in-song or between song tweaking, I'd stick with the Nord for the reasons in the OP.

 

That said, for "later," the Kronos can be the central keyboard in a home studio setup, and a keeper for some time to come. Probably has greater value in the long run than the Nord. 

 

So I'd be very tempted to trade the Nord just to get my hands on a like-new Kronos 2, and consider spending less on an upper tier non-workstation type synth for the band stuff. 

[Docbop]

21 minutes ago, drawback said:

+1 on Moonglow's post. 

 

The Kronos is very tempting but for cover band gig where you may be doing in-song or between song tweaking, I'd stick with the Nord for the reasons in the OP.

 

That said, for "later," the Kronos can be the central keyboard in a home studio setup, and a keeper for some time to come. Probably has greater value in the long run than the Nord. 

 

So I'd be very tempted to trade the Nord just to get my hands on a like-new Kronos 2, and consider spending less on an upper tier non-workstation type synth for the band stuff. 

This is why I got my Nord S3 as powerful as my Kronos is the learning curve and deep dive in menus to make changes was more than I wanted to deal with.    With my Nord it may not do as much, but everything I need to do is right there in front of me. I do more with the board because it's easier.  

[jeffincltnc]

Good points.  Just to be clear, I’m definitely keeping my Nord Stage 3 compact, the one I would trade out for the Kronos 2 61 is my Nord Wave 2.  I guess these are good decisions to be making.  The Wave 2 is very a nice 2nd tier gig synth for sure.

[Cabo]

Given the other equipment you already have, I don't think I would go the Kronos route.  

 

Could you use the Fantom 8 or bring a laptop & S61?   The Kronos has a lot of strengths, but it would require a substantial learning curve.  If you're already very familiar with your other options, I'd go with one of those.

[jeffincltnc]

I don’t ever see myself gigging with the Fantom 8 due to size and weight.  Too much to carry.  But the other options are doable too.  I’m pretty handy at getting synth sounds down the way I want them in software, sampling them and importing into a Nord Wave 2.  It takes work and is not as seamless as the Kronos preset library as a starting point, in my opinion.

[stoken6]

In almost all circumstances, Kronos is a first-choice keyboard, particularly in 61 guise. (The hammer-actions are too heavy). I wouldn't worry about longevity - there's a PC inside, and plenty of knowhow on how to maintain those...

 

However, your 80s-band employment will put your Wave 2 to good use - and it will be probably more user-friendly than the Kronos in that role. 

 

EDIT I've just seen your comment that you create synth sounds by sampling softsynths to your Wave 2. If you're not rolling your own sounds on the Wave, then flip it for a Kronos and sample into that (or try rolling your own Kronos patches!). 

 

Cheers, Mike

[bjosko]

I got a Kronos 61 back when they was released, still have it, and is a bit ashamed that it have lived most of it life in the flightcase.

 I took it out recently, but I just don’t bond to it. It can do everything except making coffee, but the way to the goal is way to complicated, and I never got the inspiration to really learn to use it properly.

AnotherScott wrote all I think about it in another thread about biggest disappointed gear.

 

When I first got it, it should be ( on that time) a backup to my temporary unstable NS Classic, and had hoped to sneak in some synth parts in my bands music, but realized that it was more than enough what I could do with my Nord, and with the later NS3, it cover all my synth needed. 

[DJkeys]

I use the NS3 with the NW2 and program all my own sounds.  We do a lot of 80s, and the NW2 nails all of it easily.  Super quick to load samples.  Kronos is very capable, but long boot time, steep learning curve, and discontinued. Also weighs 12 pounds more than NW2, and that is a big deal for me-

 

-dj

[CEB]

I learned the Kronos fairly well.   Seriously, If I can learn the Kronos anyone can.  I'm not a very smart man.     

 

Karma is a little whacky to learn sometimes.   Sampling and file management is a little counter intuitive be you alone need to do it a few times.  I kept thinking I was losing my work the first time I was setting up samples.  I cane from a Fantom background.  I thought the fantom was an easier approach but it is what I learned first. 

 

I tend to implement everything as a combi, even if if is just a single program.  It just becomes a combi with a single zone because this way I implement most all effects in combi mode.   This way in the beginning I only had to learn on set of effects screens.  I program most of my sounds,  Most the synth engines in the Kronos are easy to program if you know basic synthesis.  This is because I play current Pop.  There are no presets for the new songs I play.   

 

Implementing side chain compression  for the song Titanium by Sia was probably the thing that brought on my permanent baldness.  The song probably would have worked better without it because of the nature of  live drums and guitar. When the squish hits it just made the keys harder to hear in the mix. But it was a learning experience.

[ProfD]

While I understand the Kronos temptation, the Nord Wave 2 should be more than adequate enough to cover that gig. 😎

[Radagast]

On 5/29/2022 at 12:43 PM, ElmerJFudd said:Korg IS going to be at NAMM this year.  Just sayin’

 

[Radagast]

Korg IS going to be at NAMM in a few days.  Just sayin’

[CEB]

Roland isn’t I guess.  

[RABid]

Still have my Kronos 2 61 though I would like to trade it for a high end Fantom 7. Still, I think it is as good as it needs to be for coverband work.

[mcgoo]

I have a love / hate relationship with my Kronos LS. Lightweight, powerful jack of all trades. I don't care for its piano and hammond... That's kinda a big deal. If you want better sounds, I think you're likely going to have to go laptop plus vst's. If you don't want that, it's about as good as it gets, with the posssible exception of the Fantom. 

[Mighty Motif Max]

5 hours ago, RABid said:

Still have my Kronos 2 61 though I would like to trade it for a high end Fantom 7. Still, I think it is as good as it needs to be for coverband work.

Keep the Kronos 2 61. I don't think you'd gain much by swapping it for a Fantom 7 (one of which I own). It would be a crossgrade at best and a downgrade in some areas (EP's, most orchestral sounds).

[ProfD]

10 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Keep the Kronos 2 61. I don't think you'd gain much by swapping it for a Fantom 7 (one of which I own). It would be a crossgrade at best and a downgrade in some areas..

Agreed.  It is easy to think or believe the grass is greener on the other side. 

 

Every workstation type KB has a reasonable facsimile of the same sounds.  Just a matter of whose *sound* one prefers.😎

[Stokely]

I prefer the organ (as-is, no pedals) from the Fantom to the CX3 engine of the Kronos.   Again maybe it's the leslie that makes the difference and both keyboards have extra outs to make it easier to use a pedal if you are so inclined.   Of course other opinions may differ and a lot of people don't use organ that much!   I've always like the v-combo/vk8 organ sound in a rock band setting and the Fantom organ now sounds just like it.

Piano is a weird beast for live gigs IMO.  I still think one of the best is the old triple strike...very simple sound compared to those in my Nord or the ones in my Forte and MODX, but it sounded good live and cut through doing it.   If I played solo or a ton of ballads perhaps my viewpoint would be different.

I'd consider a used Kronos provided the screens have held up over the years.    It would have to unseat my MODX with ipad on top (I consider it part of the MODX at this point), and the more I work with the MODX the harder that is going to be!  Even the "analog" programming is sounding better as I build patches, though certainly I expect the Kronos would be better in that area.

[CEB]

SetList Rules.   😀

[TJ Cornish]

I’ve been in the OASYS/Kronos world since 2005. I played my OASYS 76 for 9 years until I broke the CPU heat sync off due to a bump in a road case. I then got a Kronos X88 and then a Kronos 2 88. Last fall I got a Fantom 7. FWIW, my genre is modern worship music, so I approach from that direction.

 

I agree with Max about general sounds of the Fantom - on the Fantom, the piano is better, IMO the B3 is better. On the Kronos, strings and EPs are better, the synth engine is better (Fantom has some really stupid LFO sync limitations), and the direct from disk sample playback is pretty amazing. The Kronos set list mode is hugely great - better than the Fantom scene chain mode, though I do like the physical buttons for that on the Fantom.

 

I don’t have much personal Nord experience, other than probably an inappropriate disdain of the brand due to the large number of “me too” people in the church world that just HAVE to have the $5000 red thing because that’s what’s on the worship videos, and then they plug it into a MacBook.  

 

I guess I would distill it down to if you like presets or twiddling. The Kronos will get you closer to the sounds in your set list than your Nord because you can take the time to make them. If that’s your style, you’ll nail them on the Kronos every time. If you like twiddling live, your Nord is probably more tactile.

 

I have moved away from the Kronos to the Fantom largely because of the VPiano and the LED ladders on the sliders; I never loved the internal piano sound of the Kronos, even with a lot of dialing. The other thing that is both good and bad on the Kronos - the IFX architecture. It’s totally customizable - you can put 12 effects blocks on one sound, however depending on the size of your combi, you may need to start managing those blocks as a lot of factory sounds use 2-4 IFX blocks. The Fantom has simpler effects architecture where you just have one insert effect per part plus the system effects, but they’re fully allocated, so you can actually use all 16 parts in a scene and they sound the same (polyphony aside).

 

I’m hopeful that Korg will make a new Kronos replacement someday that addresses some of the limitations of the Kronos - piano sounds, IFX slots, polyphony (I have less polyphony trouble on the Fantom due to fully allocated VPiano poly compared to the Kronos), and control surface items (unreadable tiny white letters, LEDs all the same color, lack of LED ladders) as well as a UI update. 

 

My crystal ball says no replacement this year - Nautilus is still too new. Maybe next year.

[TJ Cornish]

20 hours ago, Stokely said:

I'd consider a used Kronos provided the screens have held up over the years.  

I’ve had no hardware problems with either Kronos I have - one of which I bought in 2013 and have gigged pretty heavily with. They are getting up there, but unlike the OASYS which I did kill, the Kronos is a little less ‘on the bleeding edge’ with hardware - no spinning HDD, no DVD drive, no articulating screen… I suspect it will be possible to keep Kronoses running as long as any other pro keyboard.

[Moonglow]

1 hour ago, TJ Cornish said:

The Kronos set list mode is hugely great - better than the Fantom scene chain mode, though I do like the physical buttons for that on the Fantom.

 

TJ, could you please elaborate on this? Why do you find the setlist mode in the Kronos to be superior to the scene chain mode in the Fantom? Thanks!

[TJ Cornish]

The Kronos set list function allows for comments - keys, first words of that 2nd verse you always forget, etc. Also, you can see the names of the other set list items in the page which allows easy jumping around in case the order changes. On the Fantom, if you end up doing something other than what you programmed in order, you have to remember where the songs are to know which button to push.

 

The Fantom is close to the ideal keyboard - I’ve long argued that the holy grail of keyboards is for every patch to sound the same in Combi mode as it does in patch mode. With the Fantom that’s true - with the effects fully allocated, you don’t have to scratch your head why a sound sounds great in patch mode but sucks in Combi mode.

 

My two big complaints about the Fantom are the lack of a librarian which would allow sorting of setups and the lack of LFOs syncing to MIDIClock, with a secondary complaint as to why VPiano doesn’t hold the notes over when switching setups like the other engines do (I know others have significantly different gripes). The pros outweigh the cons compared to the Kronos at the moment (largely piano sound-related complaints and some control issues), but neither are perfect.  Both are great though, relatively speaking - the ability to do an entire concert on one board compared to 15 keyboards of 30 years ago is pretty amazing, even if there are some compromises.

[AnotherScott]

 

On 5/29/2022 at 2:34 PM, Docbop said:

This is why I got my Nord S3 as powerful as my Kronos is the learning curve and deep dive in menus to make changes was more than I wanted to deal with.    With my Nord it may not do as much, but everything I need to do is right there in front of me. I do more with the board because it's easier.  

Your NS3/Kronos comparison is similar to my Fantom-0/PC4 comparison. The Kurzweil is probably more flexible from a programming perspective, but I do more with the Roland because it's easier.

 

On 5/29/2022 at 3:48 PM, stoken6 said:

I've just seen your comment that you create synth sounds by sampling softsynths to your Wave 2. If you're not rolling your own sounds on the Wave, then flip it for a Kronos and sample into that (or try rolling your own Kronos patches!). 

Yes, loading samples into Kronos is another way to go, though also yet another example of something that is, itself, more straight-forward to do on a Nord than a Kronos. Though also, while all the knobbage on the Nord is great for sound creation when needed, there's also the case where, even if you're not using it to create sounds (i.e. because you're loading in your own softsynth samples), it can still be nice to have all that dedicated knobbage for live real-time manipulation.

 

23 hours ago, ProfD said:

On 5/30/2022 at 11:44 PM, Mighty Motif Max said:

Keep the Kronos 2 61. I don't think you'd gain much by swapping it for a Fantom 7 (one of which I own). It would be a crossgrade at best and a downgrade in some areas (EP's, most orchestral sounds).

Agreed.  It is easy to think or believe the grass is greener on the other side. 

 

Every workstation type KB has a reasonable facsimile of the same sounds.  Just a matter of whose *sound* one prefers.😎

This reminds me of the recent "Have we finally reached 'Good enough' in ROMplers?" thread, where I said I don't chase down better sounds so much as better functionalities. Related, last week I was setting up my Fantom-07 for only its second gig, and I needed to find equivalents for sounds I've used on other boards. And so, I had the MODX and Fantom-0 set up, called up my go-to sounds on the MODX, and looked for what would be close on the Fantom-0. In some cases, I found something I liked as much or more on the Roland, while in other cases, I felt I had to settled for a less satisfying sound than I had on the Yamaha.  But in the end, on one hand, you'll likely never find one board whose sound you prefer for everything, but OTOH, any of the better boards will almost certainly have a sound that is at least "good enough." So really, again, to me, it is mostly other functionalities that come into play, rather than the sounds themselves (e.g. the things I discussed at some length throughout that other thread).

 

3 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

on the Fantom, the piano is better, IMO the B3 is better. On the Kronos, strings and EPs are better, the synth engine is better 

Assuming you're talking about VA, I guess you're comparing the AL-1 engine on the Kronos to the non-model specific ZEN-Core VA programming on the Fantom (as opposed to comparing the MS-20 and Polysix engines on the Kronos to the Juno 106, Jupiter 8, JX-8P, and SH-101 models of the Fantom). I wonder if this could also be an example of the NS3/Kronos and Fantom-0/PC4 comparisons that opened this post, where the raw Kronos engine might be deeper but the Fantom engine may be more accessible? From the synth side of things, there's also the variable of the other kinds of synthesis, i.e. that Kronos also has FM synthesis, and Fantom has n/zyme which I guess falls into the wavetable category...?

[AnotherScott]

39 minutes ago, TJ Cornish said:

The Kronos set list function allows for comments - keys, first words of that 2nd verse you always forget, etc. Also, you can see the names of the other set list items in the page which allows easy jumping around in case the order changes. On the Fantom, if you end up doing something other than what you programmed in order, you have to remember where the songs are to know which button to push.

For the second of those two issues, all you have to do is hit the Chain button again. Shown in the first section of this video...

 

 

 

47 minutes ago, TJ Cornish said:

 

My two big complaints about the Fantom are the lack of a librarian which would allow sorting of setups

A librarian would be great. You're also casting light on another advantage Kronos' Set List has over Fantom's approach, which kind of splits the Set List page's function in two, yielding the Scene page and the Scene Chain page... Unless I've missed something, re-ordering the "slots" on a Scene page is a bit of a nightmare.