Recommendations for compact hammer action slab pianos or controllers (both 73 and 88)

[funkyhammond]

Criteria:

• looking for both 73 and 88-key options
• primary use as a controller, so don't want extra weight of large speakers or extra cost of a full stage keyboard (but basic APs/EPs would be nice)
• no obvious shortcomings as a basic controller (5-pin DIN MIDI a must)
• decent action without obvious shortcomings for playing APs
• compact design, and relatively lightweight (ideally, less than 30 lbs for 73-key, less strict about the 88-key since it probably won't move much)
• inexpensive, but not totally budget where the action really suffers

 

What are the compact 88-key and 73/76-key options currently available? And please feel free to point out any potential drawbacks of the actions (I will test them out myself). 

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Canoehead]

I have really enjoyed the Studiologic SL 73 controller.

 

 

 

Cheers,

Gord

 

 

[funkyhammond]

1 minute ago, Canoehead said:

I have really enjoyed the Studiologic SL 73 controller.

 

 

Interesting, since I've read some negative things on here about the action. Do you find the action heavy or do you like heavy actions?

[pinkfloydcramer]

Kawai ES110 has 5 pin MIDI, IMO best budget hammer action out there

[AnalogGuy1]

46 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

Interesting, since I've read some negative things on here about the action. Do you find the action heavy or do you like heavy actions?

I've owned an SL-73.  I found the action too heavy for my liking; replaced it with a Roland RD800. 

 

Pros of the Roland:

* I love the action feel and the key feel

* It has your MIDI 5 pin DIN connectors

* It has a decent EP as well as AP sounds baked in, in case of catastrophic failure of your outboard gear

* it's about as physically compact as you can make an 88, other than the A-88

 

Cons of the Roland:

* Its MIDI-over-usb drivers are...problematic, at least on Windows.  The installer hangs, it only recognizes the USB port that it was connected to when the drivers were installed...but for plain 5 pin DIN connectors, works a treat. 

* The slab itself weighs about 50lb, which gets old fast.

[ElmerJFudd]

What do you need in a controller?  Do you just need 73/88k weighted action with 5pin MIDI?  
 

Or do you need pitch and mod wheels?  Expression pedal input?  After touch?  Are you planning to use with a laptop or with other MIDI keyboards?  Modules? 

[AnotherScott]

Decent feeling, lightweight 88, with 5-pin DIN MIDI, where you want some internal sounds but they are secondary... If you're willing to look for something used, I like the old Casio Privias. Some of them have trouble  reaching high velocity over MIDI, but if you're driving a VST, you can scale the velocity on the receiving end. If not, a little MIDI Solutions Velocity Converter (or an old Anatek Pocket Curve) will do the trick. PX-100/110/120/300/310/320 would be among the possibilities. In newer models (pricier), PX-350/360/5S/560 (the last few are still current). Whether the older or newer actions are better is subjective. (BTW, a lot of the sounds are actually pretty good, too!)

[funkyhammond]

41 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

What do you need in a controller?  Do you just need 73/88k weighted action with 5pin MIDI?  
 

Or do you need pitch and mod wheels?  Expression pedal input?  After touch?  Are you planning to use with a laptop or with other MIDI keyboards?  Modules? 

 

Good point, pitch and mod would be nice, but not a deal breaker. The rest not necessary. I would be using with MIDI keyboards/modules and maybe sometimes a laptop (but I have an audio interface with 5-pin MIDI so I don't absolutely need USB MIDI).

[AnotherScott]

The only Casios I mentioned with the pitch and mod wheels are the PX-5S and PX-560. Both are really nice boards, though at $1100-$1300 new, might be a little more than you were hoping to spend. (Though if you are looking at used possibilities, I have both, and am in the process of starting to thin the herd...)

 

I haven't played one, but in that range, if you don't necessarily need sounds, the Studiologic SL88 Grand would be worth looking at. The best Korg action in the lower price range is in the D1, but no pitch/mod controls on that one. Also no pitch/mod controls on the Kawai ES110, or its ES100 predecessor.

[Noah DC]

Kawaii ES110 used on Amazon right now for 580, if that’s what you’re looking for

[Fleer]

Roland RD-88 here. Flawless. 

[funkyhammond]

51 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

The only Casios I mentioned with the pitch and mod wheels are the PX-5S and PX-560. Both are really nice boards, though at $1100-$1300 new, might be a little more than you were hoping to spend. (Though if you are looking at used possibilities, I have both, and am in the process of starting to thin the herd...)

 

I haven't played one, but in that range, if you don't necessarily need sounds, the Studiologic SL88 Grand would be worth looking at. The best Korg action in the lower price range is in the D1, but no pitch/mod controls on that one. Also no pitch/mod controls on the Kawai ES110, or its ES100 predecessor.

 

I was just doing a comparison on the Casio website. Are the basic AP and EP sounds exactly the same in the PX-5S and PX-560? I see the 560 has more sounds, effects, built in rhythms, etc but I'm more curious about the core piano sounds. Now that we're talking more mid-range, are there any major differences for assignable controls other than what is obvious (4 knobs/5 sliders vs 3 centrally positioned knobs)? Strangely, the Casio comparison chart forgets to mention that the PX-560 has a mod wheel (not just a pitch bend) but I can clearly see it in the photo.

I'll see what I can find in local stores to actually try out. Casio makes it easy with their consistent use of keybeds, so I'll also look for a PX-770/870 in order to try out the action. And, hopefully, I can also find a Kord D1 and Kawai ES110 to try out.

 

Looks like the SL88 Grand also uses the TP100 keybed. I'm concerned if the action feels overly heavy. Unlikely I'll be able to try before I buy.

 

Any options for a 73/76-key other than the SL73?

[AnotherScott]

18 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

I was just doing a comparison on the Casio website. Are the basic AP and EP sounds exactly the same in the PX-5S and PX-560?

 

With one (important) exception, I think the pianos and EPs are the same, they even both offer the same freely downloadable additional EP sounds designed by Dave Weiser (ex-Kurzweil). The exception is that Mike Martin created a "tweaked" version of the main piano sound, and it is available as a download for the PX-5S but not the PX-560, and I like it a lot better. It's at https://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/files/file/5-pianoaltatk/

 

The rest of your PX5S vs PX560 questions are probably answered at https://www.casiomusicforums.com/index.php?/files/file/5-pianoaltatk/

 

23 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

Looks like the SL88 Grand also uses the TP100 keybed.

 

SL88 Studio uses the TP100 keybed uses one of the higher quality Fatars.

[Canoehead]

I quite like the action of the SL 73, however, as we know, this is very subjective.

 

Cheers,

Gord

[mynameisdanno]

Another vote for the Kawai ES110.  I enjoy it quite a lot as a weighted controller for Nord Stage 2/3 Compact.  It's also proved quite roadworthy considering its weight/price point.  Wish it had an expression pedal input, but I just bring a MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller when I need one.

[funkyhammond]

15 hours ago, mynameisdanno said:

Another vote for the Kawai ES110.  I enjoy it quite a lot as a weighted controller for Nord Stage 2/3 Compact.  It's also proved quite roadworthy considering its weight/price point.  Wish it had an expression pedal input, but I just bring a MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller when I need one.

 

I tried out the ES110 yesterday and liked it. I was also thinking about the lack of expression pedal input. Just wondering, what are you using the MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller for? Is it going into the ES110 and for controlling what?

[mynameisdanno]

4 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

 

I tried out the ES110 yesterday and liked it. I was also thinking about the lack of expression pedal input. Just wondering, what are you using the MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller for? Is it going into the ES110 and for controlling what?

 

I use the ES110 strictly as a controller for the Nord Stage 2 Compact, running in "Dual KB" mode, where Slot A is controlled by the internal keyboard and Slot B is controller by the ES110.  If your external keyboard has an expression pedal input (and sends that data via MIDI CC#11), then you have the ability to set up Control Pedal morphs that apply to slot B on the Nord.  So, for instance, you can have one expression pedal connected directly to the Nord, controlling filter cutoff or organ swell or whatever on Slot A, and another expression pedal connected to your external board controlling, say, volume of a strings layer on a piano sound on Slot B.

 

When I need a control pedal for Slot B stuff, the MIDI flow is ES110 --> MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller (with Yamaha FC7 connected) --> Nord Stage.  The MIDI Solutions box merges MIDI data from the ES110 with CC data converted from the attached pedal, and sends the combined data out to the Nord.  Works great, just as if the ES110 had an expression pedal input on it.  No power supply required - the voltage on the Kawai ES110's MIDI out is sufficient to power the MIDI Solutions devices.  

 

I can't remember if I had to do the special MIDI Solutions configuration dance on it when I bought it, or if it came out of the box pre-set for CC#11 and the FC7 polarity and resistance - it was so long ago when I bought it.  But it works great.

[funkyhammond]

1 hour ago, mynameisdanno said:

 

I use the ES110 strictly as a controller for the Nord Stage 2 Compact, running in "Dual KB" mode, where Slot A is controlled by the internal keyboard and Slot B is controller by the ES110.

Now I get it. I have some MIDI Solutions boxes but not that one so I wasn't sure exactly how it's used. So it works for you because the ES110 is strictly a controller and you're just trying to add expression pedal data to the MIDI data going from the ES110 to the Nord. In my mind I was thinking, why wouldn't you just use the expression pedal input of the Nord, but wasn't thinking about triggering a separate sound (slot) where you want a separate expression pedal for that. I guess if the Nord had two expression pedal inputs then that would have also worked. Actually, I just looked and see that it has a separate dedicated 'organ swell' input. Just curious, have people complained about why that is not just a second generic control input (that can be assigned to organ swell)?

[AnotherScott]

30 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

Actually, I just looked and see that it has a separate dedicated 'organ swell' input. Just curious, have people complained about why that is not just a second generic control input (that can be assigned to organ swell)?

That's not the Nord way.

 

Lots of boards are loaded up with "generic" knobs, buttons, sliders and pedal inputs, which you configure to do whatever you want. Part of the Nord appeal is that they have thought out the most common way people need things to work, and they pre-configure everything to work that way. Less flexible, but you don't buy Nord for flexibility, you buy Nord to have it automatically do what you probably want it to do. And that includes not cluttering up menus with tons of options, which means not only does it default to the behavior you probably want, but also, whatever alternate assignments might be available (and sometimes they are) are likewise limited.

[funkyhammond]

11 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Part of the Nord appeal is that they have thought out the most common way people need things to work, and they pre-configure everything to work that way.

Except the main control pedal input already has menu options on how it functions. And the morph function can already be assigned to a number of controls. I was just curious about danno's perspective since he ran into the limitation and needed a MIDI Solutions box to get around it.

[AnotherScott]

10 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

Except the main control pedal input already has menu options on how it functions. 

 

This gets back to what I said later in the post, "whatever alternate assignments might be available (and sometimes they are) are likewise limited." Both expression pedals have menu options to change their functions... but each only has two options.

 

14 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

And the morph function can already be assigned to a number of controls.

 

Which again, in its Nord-like way, is smartly done with direct control and no menu options.

 

The point is, Nord doesn't use generic controls with menu systems to assign such controls to tons of possible uses. They're about direct controls, and relatively little in the way of deeper configurable options. Not that people don't sometimes complain about things they wish it could do! ;-) But I haven't seen pedal flexibility as an issue there. Really, the morph feature probably already lets most people do most of what they'd want the pedal to do, more easily than on other systems.

 

23 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

I was just curious about danno's perspective since he ran into the limitation and needed a MIDI Solutions box to get around it.

 

I don't think that was a Nord limitation he was working around, but rather a Kawai limitation. If the external controller has an expression pedal input (which they very commonly do), I don't think it would be an issue. While it's cool when boards make allowances for shortcomings in other boards you may be attaching to them (Kurzweil has some nice flexibility there, for example), I'm not surprised that Nord would be more limited here.

[mynameisdanno]

Co-sign everything @AnotherScott said.  After 10 years of Stage 2 and just now finally getting into my Stage 3, I am still so thrilled with the clarity and speed of the Nord approach for quickly programming for a new project, and their relentless focus on keeping their 73-key semi weighted boards contained in a flyable form factor, that I rarely get irritated anymore on those rare occasions when I wish I could do something that falls into those 10% of needs that they choose not to accommodate in the name of interface simplicity.  There's almost always an easy workaround.

 

I do wish the Kawai (and more 88's in general) had an expression pedal input, but at this point I'm just thankful that there's anyone left selling a lightweight, compact slab 88 with a pleasing action, minimal top-panel controls and 5-pin MIDI at a reasonable price.

[Montunoman 2]

yamaha p. 121? 

 

[kaptainkeys]

5 minutes ago, Montunoman 2 said:

yamaha p. 121? 

Lacks 5-pin MIDI DIN connectors, which is one of the things that OP said is a must.

[kaptainkeys]

One option I haven't seen anyone mention yet is an old 73 or 88 keys Nord Piano (the original or Piano 2) or an old 76 key Nord Stage (Stage Classic or Stage EX).  They give you the benefit of having some nice internal sounds as well, and they are red, which is a plus.  A Yamaha CP73 is also a good option.

[drawback]

Well, if we’re talking DPs that double as controllers, one of the best actions and playability I’ve owned is the Korg GrandStage 73. But they price isn’t low enough unless you can find a used one. 

[funkyhammond]

44 minutes ago, GotKeys said:

One option I haven't seen anyone mention yet is an old 73 or 88 keys Nord Piano (the original or Piano 2) or an old 76 key Nord Stage (Stage Classic or Stage EX).  They give you the benefit of having some nice internal sounds as well, and they are red, which is a plus.  A Yamaha CP73 is also a good option.

 

I'm always open to a used Nord with hammer action but they are hard to come by and are often still expensive. One of my criteria in my original post was that it not be too expensive. For a 73/76-key portable hammer action, I would be willing to spend more, but for the 88-key board, that will mostly just sit at a space and be there for rehearsals. I already discussed my misgivings for the YC/CP73 action in that thread.

[funkyhammond]

I just realized that the ES110 only has fixed point split which sucks. Now I have to decide if this is a deal-breaker. Anyone know off hand what other Kawai has at least as good of an action, settable split point, and not too much more expensive?

[AnotherScott]

10 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

I just realized that the ES110 only has fixed point split which sucks. Now I have to decide if this is a deal-breaker. Anyone know off hand what other Kawai has at least as good of an action, settable split point, and not too much more expensive?

 

ES520

[aellison62]

Hammer 88 pro?