Yamaha CP88/YC88 vs. the rest

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, ludo said:

And this is the only reason  i’ll keep my Numa Organ 2. Only Hammondsounds helped by a Neo Minivent 2. Perfect!

I actually like the Numa Organ 2 rotary better than the Vent! The Vent has the better overdrive, though.

[Aynsley Green]

15 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Which Nord(s)? I was quite happy with the overdrive grit/distortion on the Electro 5 and Stage 3. I found the SK1 (which should be same as SK2) practically unusable, until someone (Jim Alfredson?) posted the trick of picking the EP overdrive option, which ironically, worked better for organ overdrive than any of the organ overdrive options. That made it pretty usable, though I still liked Nord's OD better. Hammond did improve their OD on the SK Pro, or at least made it sufficiently more customizable so as to let you get better results out of it.

 

There was also some detailed stuff about SK1 vs Nord organ (overdrive, rotary, etc.) at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/165558-nord-electro-5d-vs-hammond-sk1/

 

 

Nice video! I haven't watched all of it, but there was some great playing there, and some nice clear examples of gospel style drawbar manipulation, among other things. Real nice conversation about actual playing (whereas most shops' videos are, understandably, more about the gear itself). And it was surprising to see a "traditional" organ player making so much use of the sustain pedal!

 

That said, I did not care for the overdrive I heard there, either. Again, I'd take Nord for overdrive. But the basic tone of the YC is wonderful. I noticed that when I tried the YC61 myself as well. I think they really got that right. I might have gone with the YC61 if it had a better Leslie effect (includes overdrive as well). I was also a little disappointed in the YC61 action for organ. It was nicely above average (as non-hammer actions go) for piano, and I'm not a total purist about needing the high trigger it lacks, but the combination of low trigger with its almost escapement-like initial resistance point to overcome plus a lower than expected trigger for the release point gave it a compromised playability compared to other waterfall boards. I ended up getting the SK Pro, which is far more flexible, but heavier and more complicated. Though getting back to the point of this thread, the Hammond isn't available with a hammer action, so they don't compete there. 

 

Another YC88 competitor would arguably be the Dexibell Vivo S9, which uses Fatar's TP-400, which is an action I've never played.

 

 

 

Had a Nord Electro 6D for years, I could never get the organ to 'scream' over the top of the mix in the way that I like. You can hear me struggling with it here from about the 1:20 mark:

Dru Chen - I Only Get It From You (Live at Aliwal Arts Centre, 2019, Singapore) - YouTube

 

You do have to tweak the Hammond SK2, there's a tonne of parameters in there, but it can really sound great Live - ten years later I still get compliments on it. Just this week, I brought the Hammond SK2 in to work, which the lads poo-pooed saying 'why wouldn't you use the in-house Nord blah blah', until they heard it and changed their tune. Again, depends on what kind of tone you're going for and what style you play, I suppose.

In the Studio, the Leslie, Drive and Spring do show their limitations, and studio engineers have been quick to knock it, too.

 

I found the YC Leslie a bit shit at first, but with some tweaking it was respectable. The lack of an Organ Out is almost a deal-breaker though, agreed. But I see the Nord's or YC's as a 'good enough' organ for pop gigs where bringing an 88 + a chonky clonewheel would be a bit overkill, proper clonewheels are a different machine for a different kind of gig. Am definitely considering that new SKX Pro, though!

 

The Fatar TP-400 is the same action as the Nord Stage 3 88, if I am not mistaken (so, a deal-breaker, in other words 😁)

[stoken6]

3 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

Had a Nord Electro 6D for years, I could never get the organ to 'scream' over the top of the mix in the way that I like. You can hear me struggling with it here from about the 1:20 mark:

Dru Chen - I Only Get It From You (Live at Aliwal Arts Centre, 2019, Singapore) - YouTube

I agree about the Nord organ tone - but that's a very cool performance from you and all the musos. Are you playing the Electro's clavinet during the verse groove?

 

(Actually - is that an entire live performance? There's obviously other video footage interspersed)

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Aynsley Green]

5 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

I agree about the Nord organ tone - but that's a very cool performance from you and all the musos. Are you playing the Electro's clavinet during the verse groove?

 

(Actually - is that an entire live performance? There's obviously other video footage interspersed)

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Thank you! Yeah everything on that show was the Electro 6D and a Roland System 8 for synths.
Despite what the baffling video edit might suggest, it was indeed a live show I MDed a while back for Dru Chen (super talented guy, check him out).

You can hear some more of said show on this record:

 

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

The Fatar TP-400 {in the Dexibell S9} is the same action as the Nord Stage 3 88, if I am not mistaken (so, a deal-breaker, in other words 😁)

 

No, that Nord has a version of the TP40, not TP400.

[Aynsley Green]

In the interest of closure, taking delivery of my new Yamaha YC88 by Friday 😁, thank you for the spirited chat! Will tell update you with how I get along with it

[Outkaster]

11 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

In the interest of closure, taking delivery of my new Yamaha YC88 by Friday 😁, thank you for the spirited chat! Will tell update you with how I get along with it

That's great.  I think you will really like it.

[C.J. Lewis]

On 2/1/2022 at 8:44 PM, Outkaster said:

YC88 blows a lot of the others out of the water and is built like a tent. I am gigging with one now.

A Coleman 2 man tent, or something more substantial, like a 12 man hunting lodge?

 

🤣

[allan_evett]

18 minutes ago, ivorycj said:

A Coleman 2 man tent, or something more substantial, like a 12 man hunting lodge?

 

🤣

My YC88 reminds me more of a sturdy Yurt. Say a 5-6 person model, with some tasteful upgrades. So you could actually consider it rig glamping.

[counterpoint]

New post on Facebook about a Yamaha Tech Talk scheduled for 2/22 @ 4:00 PM to discuss "great new features coming to the YC Series".  Could it be that the long-awaited OS update is imminent?  Warming up my USB thumb drive...

[eric]

39 minutes ago, counterpoint said:

New post on Facebook about a Yamaha Tech Talk scheduled for 2/22 @ 4:00 PM to discuss "great new features coming to the YC Series".  Could it be that the long-awaited OS update is imminent?  Warming up my USB thumb drive...

Maybe a way to separately output the organ signal to be sent to a Vent? I'd consider one if they add this.  

[Fleer]

5 hours ago, eric said:

Maybe a way to separately output the organ signal to be sent to a Vent? I'd consider one if they add this.  

Me too

[kaptainkeys]

6 hours ago, eric said:

Maybe a way to separately output the organ signal to be sent to a Vent? I'd consider one if they add this.  

My only skepticism that they won't add this is that the YC doesn't have more than 2 outputs, so I don't know how they will make it so that you can route specific sounds to a neo vent, unless they expect users to run all their other sounds in mono.  My guess is that it will be a software update that will bring an improved leslie sim and maybe some semblance of editing to the FM synth engine?

[ElmerJFudd]

29 minutes ago, Fleer said:

Me too

 Very rare feature for a stage piano.  
 

Not that it’s not at times useful to have an aux out for a variety of reasons. Just don’t see them giving it on a CP, YC… that’s possible, but when?  

[eric]

4 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

 Very rare feature for a stage piano.  
 

Not that it’s not at times useful to have an aux out for a variety of reasons. Just don’t see them giving it on a CP, YC… that’s possible, but when?  

Nord added this option to the Electro 2, relatively late in the product lifecycle. It created the trade off of mono for other sounds, though it was nice to have this option. 

[Aynsley Green]

4 hours ago, eric said:

Nord added this option to the Electro 2, relatively late in the product lifecycle. It created the trade off of mono for other sounds, though it was nice to have this option. 

 

This can be achieved on any keyboard with Panning for individual parts, no?

[Aynsley Green]

11 hours ago, counterpoint said:

New post on Facebook about a Yamaha Tech Talk scheduled for 2/22 @ 4:00 PM to discuss "great new features coming to the YC Series".  Could it be that the long-awaited OS update is imminent?  Warming up my USB thumb drive...

 

Now that is intriguing. Yamaha are good that way, that 2.5 update to the MODX was huge.
Maybe if the YC got another flavour of Leslie and some FM-editing-for-dummies and it would be a true contender for the Nord Stage crown.

[Aynsley Green]

4 hours ago, GotKeys said:

My only skepticism that they won't add this is that the YC doesn't have more than 2 outputs, so I don't know how they will make it so that you can route specific sounds to a neo vent, unless they expect users to run all their other sounds in mono.  My guess is that it will be a software update that will bring an improved leslie sim and maybe some semblance of editing to the FM synth engine?

 

It does have XLR outputs + 1/4 outs, so technically it does have the capability....

[Jon E]

30 minutes ago, Aynsley Green said:

 

It does have XLR outputs + 1/4 outs, so technically it does have the capability....

No, this outputs are a single stereo output in two different electrical formats. The XLR outputs are balanced and the 1/4 outputs unbalanced.

[nadroj]

The MODX/Montage updates have been good. Smart morphing, while

not really asked for, is a very cool feature. The extra filters and stuff added a lot too. 
 

I’ve a feeling this update will either be utterly brilliant or a complete let down. Hoping for the former.

 

How good would it be for the industry if Yamaha actually managed to come up with a world class rotary sim? If boutique companies can do it, the big guys can. 

[pinkfloydcramer]

Hope springs eternal in the human beast.

[ElmerJFudd]

Request for Aux Output on future YC hardware revision need an account to view and thumb up.  

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

This can be achieved on any keyboard with Panning for individual parts, no?

 

Usually, at least if you turn off effects like global stereo reverb, but not always. Even with panning, some boards have limitations when panning stereo sounds, they never collapse to an everything-completely-on-one-side mono. Regardless, the YC doesn't have the ability to pan its sounds (except for its autopan effect... which as someone posted, does have a setting to lock a sound to a single position in the pan field, but that's not saved with the preset, so you'd have to re-establish it manually with every patch recall). With luck, maybe a pan function somehow gets added in the forthcoming update.

 

5 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

Maybe if the YC got another flavour of Leslie and some FM-editing-for-dummies and it would be a true contender for the Nord Stage crown.

I would be astonished if they don't include an updated Leslie or at least some additional editable parameters for what they have, just because there's been so much clamoring about this, I think they need to at least show an effort. Whether it will truly satisfy people will be another question.

 

OTOH, I'd say the chances of any FM editing are about zero, and I don't mind that. I'm not sure there even IS such a thing as FM editing for dummies, it's not the most intuitive paradigm to begin with. But regardless, there's no interface for it on the board (no sensible set of knobs/controls to use for it), so it would have to be menu-based, which right there makes it more difficult.

 

I think any kind of menu-based editable synth is pretty much at odds with the whole concept of the board. The Nord Stage has the knobbage to support synth editing, YC does not. A waterfall YC73 with the extra panel space being used for some real synth functionality, plus the ability to load samples, plus aftertouch and assignable outs would make it a direct NS3 threat, depending on how such a version would have to be priced. The Hammond SK Pro is another option that is kind of close since it has all the synth controls, but it loses the real-time effects controls (maybe a limitation of again wanting a control panel that would fit over 61 keys, and/or a concession to price), and its still lacks the aftertouch and custom sample loading of the Nord, but it's another board that gives you an awful lot of what a Nord Stage does relative to its price.

 

4 hours ago, nadroj said:

How good would it be for the industry if Yamaha actually managed to come up with a world class rotary sim? If boutique companies can do it, the big guys can. 

 

I never assume that kind of thing, that one company (regardless of size) can necessarily do what someone else does. Different technologies/electronics and development platforms (and possibly patents) are some possible issues. In this case, for example, it's not just a question of whether Yamaha can do a Vent-calibre Leslie sim, but also whether it can be done with the electronics that are already in the YC, and can it do so while those electronics are also doing everything else they are already doing. Also, people just have different talents (and sound design is art as well as science). Pricing is also a variable. Sometime a big company can do something more cost effectively, but sometimes a small company can. It's not impossible that a $500 device from a small company could turn into a $750 or $1000 device from a big one, and if they don't think there's a market for it at the higher price, they're not going to make it. So... maybe they can, maybe they can't. ;-)

[ElmerJFudd]

With rotary simulation, quality can also be related to how much processing power the hardware has allocated to it. On a device like the Ventilator - all the DSP in that box is dedicated to simulation of the Leslie.  How would the  Vent sound if they went with less power and had to sacrifice things like bit depth, sample rate, smoothing, and just all around lesser calculations?  Instruments like the YC are working on a lot more than the rotary speaker.  Can they sound as good as a Vent, Mojo, HX3, Numa Organ, etc?  Do the Roland VR, Nord Stage/Electro, Korg Kronos, Yamaha Genos and the like get close?  
 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

I posted the following suggestion/request to Yamaha’s IdeaScale. 
 

“Some performance situations need to send individual sound engines to another amplifier and/or channel in the PA system.  Ideally, a future YC might be equipped with an Aux Output.  But a quick and simple way to send engines exclusively to L or R on the current hardware would also be nice.

Examples:

When playing left hand bass going to a bass amp or bass channel front of house.

When using a rotary speaker or external rotary effects chain only for the organ engine.”

 

It hasn’t been seen by too many other posters yet. But someone on Yamaha’s side has changed its status from an “ideate” to “assessment”.  Small steps get you where you’re going eventually.  But either way, you have to start walking.  

[AnotherScott]

On 2/17/2022 at 2:18 AM, Aynsley Green said:

Maybe if the YC got another flavour of Leslie and some FM-editing-for-dummies...

 

You may have gotten your wish with today's update! I thought any "FM synth" function would be a non-starter if only because of the lack of controls, but it looks like one of the new FM organ modes turns the 9 sliders into a kind of basic FM synth. Cool! So who knows, maybe in the future, they could repurpose them for some more traditional synth-style editing. In fact, I had forgotten, I had suggested that very thing on ideascale! I don't know why I said there was no possible sensible knobbage to repurpose for this kind of thing, brain blanked.

 

The link to the ideascale suggestion for this is at https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/264107 - in case you want to up-vote it.

[Aynsley Green]

On 2/22/2022 at 2:21 PM, AnotherScott said:

 

You may have gotten your wish with today's update! I thought any "FM synth" function would be a non-starter if only because of the lack of controls, but it looks like one of the new FM organ modes turns the 9 sliders into a kind of basic FM synth. Cool! So who knows, maybe in the future, they could repurpose them for some more traditional synth-style editing. In fact, I had forgotten, I had suggested that very thing on ideascale! I don't know why I said there was no possible sensible knobbage to repurpose for this kind of thing, brain blanked.

 

The link to the ideascale suggestion for this is at https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/264107 - in case you want to up-vote it.

 

Eerie! I should have wished for a Patek Philippe and an Aston Martin. My YC88 still has yet to arrive (Covid deliveries, etc), but this sweetens the deal.

On a side note, I also pre-ordered the Roland JX-08 back in like November when it was announced, and totally forgot about it until it arrived on my doorstep this week. As a Virtual Analog 'expander kit' that could sit on the YC's Music Stand, it might just be the ticket. Roland have finally cracked the Boutique code with this one - all the polyphony, splits etc, sensible form factor, and such a vibey 80s sound - the Chorus is outstanding. I may have cracked the 'one board gig rig' yet!

[Charleston]

Are the EPs (especially the Wurlitzer) from the CP, also in the YC?

[dbhoosier]

1 minute ago, Charleston said:

Are the EPs (especially the Wurlitzer) from the CP, also in the YC?

Not sure if they are all the same between CP and YC, but the EPs in my YC are AWESOME.  I think there are 5+ Rhodes and at least 3 Wurlis.  Plus a couple Clavs and various FM pianos.  I generally prefer all of these EPs except the Clav from my YC over the EPs in my Nord Stage 3.  The Clav is still pretty similar and I still use it often on the YC, but I think I prefer the Clav options slightly better on the Nord (i.e., it's not a deal breaker, IMHO).  While I love having both a YC88 and NS3, if I had to choose one, I'd go with the YC after the latest FW update.  

[AnotherScott]

38 minutes ago, Charleston said:

Are the EPs (especially the Wurlitzer) from the CP, also in the YC?

 

Yes, their manuals show all the same EP sounds. Though more effects are available for them on the YC.

 

You can see all their current sounds by downloading the supplemental manuals for each board (the original manuals only include the sounds they originally shipped with, and not the ones that were added in updates).

 

YC Supplemental manual: https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/9/1382649/yc88_yc73_yc61_en_sm_b0.pdf

 

CP Supplemental manual: https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/7/1243337/cp88_cp73_v15_en_sm_e0.pdf