Yamaha CP88/YC88 vs. the rest

[funkyhammond]

Any limitations to be aware of with the YC when connecting up an external keyboard controller to create an e-pianos/organ setup or dual manual organ setup?

 

Edit: Or even connecting up an old dual manual controller where the YC will be providing all sounds.

[AnotherScott]

I don't see a way for a dual manual controller to work. The YC has its own arrangement that lets you split its sounds between an internal and external set of keys, but not two external sets of keys (i.e. external upper manual and external lower manual). And no matter what, all the YC sounds are on the same MIDI channel, so I don't see any workaround for that.

[funkyhammond]

On 3/5/2022 at 8:22 PM, AnotherScott said:

I don't see a way for a dual manual controller to work. The YC has its own arrangement that lets you split its sounds between an internal and external set of keys, but not two external sets of keys (i.e. external upper manual and external lower manual). And no matter what, all the YC sounds are on the same MIDI channel, so I don't see any workaround for that.

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

That's disappointing. I guess I've been spoiled by my Nord keyboards. Even the old Electro 2 had independent MIDI channels for upper and lower manual. I don't know how you would do MIDI sequencing of a dual manual part and have it play back properly, otherwise, for example.

 

After watching this video and looking at the YC manual, I think I now understand the basics about the Organ/Key A/Key B organization. For the Organ, you can select an external controller as '2ManualUp' or '2ManualLo' so that you can combine the YC keyboard with an external keyboard for a dual manual organ setup and choose which one is upper and which one is lower.

 

But what happens when the Organ external control is set to 'ExtOnly'? Is the external keyboard always triggering the upper manual only? Or can you still use the split functionality of the YC somehow to set up two zones (upper and lower) for the external incoming notes? I'm not sure what the following from page 45 of the manual implies: "NOTE  For Sections/parts that are set to generate sound only when playing an external keyboard, display of the Split on the Top screen changes from [ | ] to EX." 

 

From that video above, I see that it's possible to have multiple parts (from Organ/Key A/Key B) being all triggered and thus layered from the external keyboard. That makes sense since you can just set them all to external. But what about splitting/zoning those parts? Or are you forced to have them totally layered across the entire external keyboard? Are splits only playable from the YC keyboard?

 

EDIT: I also just found this article https://yamahasynth.com/learn/YC61/mastering-yc-connecting-external-keyboards

The last example at the bottom shows that external keyboard can in fact be split between Key A and Key B. Still not sure if the same can be done with the organ (i.e. flip that example so that organ is on external keyboard and Key A and Key B is on the internal keyboard).

[Docbop]

On 3/5/2022 at 5:22 PM, AnotherScott said:

I don't see a way for a dual manual controller to work. The YC has its own arrangement that lets you split its sounds between an internal and external set of keys, but not two external sets of keys (i.e. external upper manual and external lower manual). And no matter what, all the YC sounds are on the same MIDI channel, so I don't see any workaround for that.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

9 minutes ago, Docbop said:

 

So it looks like they built in a lower manual function.  He doesn’t demonstrate which manual’s registrations are being controlled by the physical drawbars.  Is it possible to use a controller with its own faders for a second set of drawbars in real time?  

[AnotherScott]

Docbop, that video demonstrate using a single manual external keyboard/controller as part of a dual-manual setup with the internal keys, which I also talked about earlier, there's no issue doing that. What I said I do NOT see a way to do (in the paragraph you quoted) is using a dual manual external keyboard/controller. Say, using a DMC-122 or a 2-manual clone like a Nord C1/C2/C2D to play two manuals of YC organ sound from waterfall keys, while leaving a YC73/88's internal keys focussed on piano use.

[AnotherScott]

2 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

So it looks like they built in a lower manual function.  He doesn’t demonstrate which manual’s registrations are being controlled by the physical drawbars.  Is it possible to use a controller with its own faders for a second set of drawbars in real time?  

 

Yes, there's a lower manual function, and you can set the YC's drawbars to operate either manual at any time (and the LEDs can indicate which manual you're controlling via color). Since the drawbars are associated with standard MIDI CCs, you should be able to use a controllers' own faders as drawbar controls for its assigned manual as well. CCs 102-110 control the upper manual drawbars, 111-119 the lower.

[funkyhammond]

Nevermind my point about the MIDI sequencing. I wasn't thinking straight. The YC would only be responsible for sending out notes played on it's own keyboard, not what came in to the MIDI In. 

[Al Coda]

On 3/6/2022 at 2:22 AM, AnotherScott said:

I don't see a way for a dual manual controller to work. The YC has its own arrangement that lets you split its sounds between an internal and external set of keys, but not two external sets of keys (i.e. external upper manual and external lower manual). And no matter what, all the YC sounds are on the same MIDI channel, so I don't see any workaround for that.

 

Ehmmm ...

What about sequencing ?

Recorded upper and lower manual MIDI is on the same MIDI channel then and the YC is unable playing back MIDI info on 2 different MIDI channels for lower and upper manual ?

No MIDI multi-mode, really ???

I´m irritated now !

 

 

A.C.

[CyberGene]

The YC isn't a workstation. I've had a MODX and absolutely hated it for its overcomplicated architecture. One buys the YC for simplicity and direct control. Two external keyboards, different MIDI channels and stuff, who cares? There are workstations for that or even better: computers.

[Sunlight2]

Hello, sorry if this has been answered already but is the CFX sample in the YC the same as in the MODX or more akin to the CP series? I couldn't get on with the MODX piano live but I do have a Yamaha P515 (from which the CP is derived) so if it's more like that it's good news.

[funkyhammond]

4 hours ago, CyberGene said:

The YC isn't a workstation. I've had a MODX and absolutely hated it for its overcomplicated architecture. One buys the YC for simplicity and direct control. Two external keyboards, different MIDI channels and stuff, who cares? There are workstations for that or even better: computers.

 

The 20 year-old Nord Electro 2 was what set the standard for simplicity and playability in a bread 'n' butter stage keyboard. It had separate MIDI channels for upper and lower. I used that feature a lot. What the YC does is a kind of workaround. You have to set a split point as the only way to divide between upper and lower. Or on the Organ external control, you have to select between one of the settings. That's no less complicated than having two MIDI channels and introduces limitations.

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, Al Coda said:

What about sequencing ?

Recorded upper and lower manual MIDI is on the same MIDI channel then and the YC is unable playing back MIDI info on 2 different MIDI channels for lower and upper manual ?

 

It's an interesting question, how it would be able to play back a dual-manual MIDI-recorded performance in such a way that it could be replicated on playback. It's obviously easy as long as you're only using the board's internal keys... the Live Set is already set up such that, even on the same MIDI channel, notes below the split point have one drawbar registration and notes above the split point have another, and all of that info is stored in the Live Set, so that will work when note data is set to and then sent back from a sequencer, all on the single MIDI channel. But once you associate the lower drawbar set with external keys, where the key ranges you're playing on the two boards may overlap, if there's no MIDI channel differentiation, we have an issue.

 

So now I also have to qualify my earlier statement, where I said, "no matter what, all the YC sounds are on the same MIDI channel." In terms of the internal structure of the keyboard, that's true. But while it has the usual global MIDI channel setting, something which can be relevant here that I hadn't thought about is that it actually has separate global MIDI channels for receive and transmit. So, let's say you leave transmit on channel 1, but you change receive to channel 2, and that's what you set your external board for. Assuming it passes the Received data to its MIDI Out when it's in its "drive a sound from an external keyboard" mode (which it would have to, for external second manual data to be sent out to a sequencer in the first place), then the sequencer actually would be aware that this MIDI data is coming in on a different MIDI channel, and that would be recorded as part of the sequence. My guess is that it works that way. IOW, while normally all YC sounds are on the same channel, I'm guessing there is a special case when you turn on the "attached second keyboard" mode that allows you to put those keys on a different MIDI channel from the internal sounds, and so would allow the sequencer to address them separately. Maybe someone here can try it out and confirm.

 

But still, to get back to the question that prompted this tangent, I don't see a way to support an external dual manual controller, which would require 3 MIDI channels of addressability (internal keys, external upper manual, external lower manual).

 

3 hours ago, Sunlight2 said:

Hello, sorry if this has been answered already but is the CFX sample in the YC the same as in the MODX or more akin to the CP series? I couldn't get on with the MODX piano live but I do have a Yamaha P515 (from which the CP is derived) so if it's more like that it's good news.

 

That's just the kind of question Yamaha never answers. ;-) Based on the overall design similarities, my assumption is that the YC and CP versions are the same, but even then, YC/CP CFX samples could be different from or the same as P515, or different from or the same as MODX. The only clear, obvious difference among these various models with CFX is that the P-515 has VRM and the YC/CP and Montage/MODX do not. It's even hard to tell how similar or different they may be if you played them right next to each other, because even if the sample sets were entirely identical among different models, they can still play differently from the different actions, which can lead you to say that they sound different.

 

I guess playing the same ("demanding") sequence into all of them would give you a better idea of how much similarity/difference there is among these CFX sounds (i.e. to answer your specific question, is the sample the same), but it's almost moot, if your intent is to play them from their attached keys. I mean, if you played board A and B from a sequencer and they sounded identical, it is still very possible that when you played them from their own keys, they could sound different. And these different boards (P515, CP/YC73, CP/YC88, MODX8, Montage 8) have 5 different actions you could be playing the CFX from! (With different amounts of velocity adjustments and editability, too.)

[DovJ]

Midi channel per live set part has been requested on IdeaScale. 
 

It’s odd they didn’t include this in the YC’s and CP’s. My CP4, predecessor to the current CP’s, has a separate midi channel for each “performance” part. 

[funkyhammond]

11 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Assuming it passes the Received data to its MIDI Out when it's in its "drive a sound from an external keyboard" mode

 

That's a big assumption. It means their MIDI Out would also function as a MIDI Merge and I don't see any mention of anything like that in the manual. I doubt it works that way. My assumption is that what you can sequence is simply the MIDI data that can be performed on the keyboard itself. And then it can play it back perfectly. I'm going to see about testing all this out in a store. My main question right now revolves around this article that I posted earlier. I want to know what happens if I try to flip that bottom example so Organ is on the external controller and Key A/Key B is split on the internal keyboard.

[M_G]

4 hours ago, Sunlight2 said:

Hello, sorry if this has been answered already but is the CFX sample in the YC the same as in the MODX or more akin to the CP series? I couldn't get on with the MODX piano live but I do have a Yamaha P515 (from which the CP is derived) so if it's more like that it's good news.

 

I had the Yamaha Montage (same AWM2 soundengine as the MODX) and the Yamaha CP88 (which I play live) side by side in

my homestudio.

To my ears (blind tested) the pure CFX sample sounded identical !

 

I also have the P-515 at home and it has more of that "pianolike bells and whistles" like Anotherscott said.

Stringresonance and so on..... which makes it more of an "grand piano experience".

 

My personal guess: The basic CFX sample is the same. The DSP/VRM/FX stuff around ist different (maybe the soundchips itself is identical) but

I never opended my boards.

 

But also like Anotherscott said: With the different keys they play totally different and that makes them sound "different".

When I tested the MODX: Horrible keybed !!!!

 

So, even when the CFX sound in the YC61 and CP88 are identical (what I think) your brain and your fingers will think they are different!

(I will have the YC61 and CP88 side by side next week, so I will see by myself....)

😉

 

 

[pawelsz]

6 minutes ago, M_G said:

 

I had the Yamaha Montage (same AWM2 soundengine as the MODX) and the Yamaha CP88 (which I play live) side by side in

my homestudio.

To my ears (blind tested) the pure CFX sample sounded identical !

 

I also have the P-515 at home and it has more of that "pianolike bells and whistles" like Anotherscott said.

Stringresonance and so on..... which makes it more of an "grand piano experience".

 

My personal guess: The basic CFX sample is the same. The DSP/VRM/FX stuff around ist different (maybe the soundchips itself is identical) but

I never opended my boards.

 

But also like Anotherscott said: With the different keys they play totally different and that makes them sound "different".

When I tested the MODX: Horrible keybed !!!!

 

So, even when the CFX sound in the YC61 and CP88 are identical (what I think) your brain and your fingers will think they are different!

(I will have the YC61 and CP88 side by side next week, so I will see by myself....)

😉

 

 

 

Check demos of P-515 and CP88 from Bettermusic on YouTube and you will hear. They do sound different. Maybe basic samples set is same but totally different tone color/EQing. 

[M_G]

6 minutes ago, pawelsz said:

 

Check demos of P-515 and CP88 from Bettermusic on YouTube and you will hear. They do sound different. Maybe basic samples set is same but totally different tone color/EQing. 

 

I don't have to compare them on youtube, I own both......

That's what I wanted to say. Even with the same CFX sample (what he asked) the sound different.

 

The CP88 is more "agressive" and cuts thru the mix nicely.....

The P-515 has the string resonance, VRM, and so on....

 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, funkyhammond said:

 

That's a big assumption. It means their MIDI Out would also function as a MIDI Merge and I don't see any mention of anything like that in the manual. I doubt it works that way. My assumption is that what you can sequence is simply the MIDI data that can be performed on the keyboard itself. And then it can play it back perfectly. I'm going to see about testing all this out in a store.

Yes, it is a big assumption. But the alternative, if it's not passing it through, is that whatever you choose to play on the external board cannot be recorded into the DAW at all. Which is also a possibility. It just seems like such a BIG limitation, to not be able to record a 2-manual organ performance to a DAW, it would kind of surprise me if they didn't somehow find a way to support that. At any rate, it would not be a difficult thing to determine.

 

(Actually, worst case, if the stuff you play on the second manual is not making its way to the DAW, you could take the MIDI out of that board and put it into a MIDI Thru box so it could be directed to both the YC and also to the sequencer. Or if the external board has simultaneous MIDI out via both the DIN and USB connections, you could go 5-pin to the YC and USB to your DAW. So there would be a way to do it, regardless. Hopefully, Yamaha won't require you to jump through that hoop, even though it's a pretty easy one to jump through, as hoops go.)

 

2 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

My main question right now revolves around this article that I posted earlier. I want to know what happens if I try to flip that bottom example so Organ is on the external controller and Key A/Key B is split on the internal keyboard.

 

Organ, Key A, and Key B can all be individually set to play from the internal keys, the external keys, or both.

[pawelsz]

2 hours ago, M_G said:

 

I don't have to compare them on youtube, I own both......

That's what I wanted to say. Even with the same CFX sample (what he asked) the sound different.

 

The CP88 is more "agressive" and cuts thru the mix nicely.....

The P-515 has the string resonance, VRM, and so on....

 

 

Ooops, I should have read your signature before writing my post  

[funkyhammond]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

(Actually, worst case, if the stuff you play on the second manual is not making its way to the DAW, you could take the MIDI out of that board and put it into a MIDI Thru box so it could be directed to both the YC and also to the sequencer. 

 

That's not really the issue. The issue is that the YC won't be able to play back a full dual manual performance. It will only be able to play back a split configuration that it is set up for. I guess you could argue that a Stage keyboard is not really designed for sequencing but then it also winds up being a limitation for my straight-forward live setup of the YC73 weighted keyboard together with an external non-weighted board (zoned or dual manual) that transmits two MIDI channels for upper/lower organ.

 

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Organ, Key A, and Key B can all be individually set to play from the internal keys, the external keys, or both.

 

I understand that, but look at that last example of that article. The internal and external boards are both split. What I want to know is if the organ can only be split on the internal board or if it can also be split if the Organ is set to "Ext Only" for control on the external board. On a side note, that example also uses a common split point (note G) for the internal and external board. I don't know if that was just the example or a limitation of only being able to set one split point that applies to both internal and external.

[kaptainkeys]

So basically within a live set, Organ, Key A, and Key B can all be controlled on their own midi channels?

[funkyhammond]

41 minutes ago, GotKeys said:

So basically within a live set, Organ, Key A, and Key B can all be controlled on their own midi channels?

 

No, they've gone for a different approach, which I don't like. The YC uses a menu setting where you define how each of those sections (Organ, Key A, Key B) are controlled, whether, internal, external, both, etc. Which means any zoning of the external board is controlled by the YC and it's split point, not by the external board setting it's own zones/MIDI channels.  

[funkyhammond]

I found this interesting. It looks like Nord had also changed to this approach with the Electro 6 (don't know about the Stage). Whereas previous Electro models used separate MIDI channels, the Electro 6 instead has a single receiving MIDI channel and uses a menu setting to define what sections the external board is controlling in the Electro. I guess they figured this was easier for creating fully self-contained live setups. That way you don't have to mess with selecting a setup on the external board at the same time as changing the setup on the main board. The main board controls all zoning/layering of its own sounds even when triggered externally. Yamaha has followed the same approach with the YC.

 

I still don't like the obvious limitations. They could have had the best of both worlds. In the external control menu option, there could have been a setting for MIDI channel that was set to "Global" by default (meaning what it does now) but then could be changed to a specific channel number. And in the case of the Organ section, the menu option could have two MIDI channels for upper/lower.

[Al Coda]

15 hours ago, CyberGene said:

The YC isn't a workstation. ... One buys the YC for simplicity and direct control. Two external keyboards, different MIDI channels and stuff, who cares?

 

BS !

 

With that attitude, the YC didn´t need MIDI I/O at all !

 

A.C.

 

[Docbop]

Isn't the YC Yamaha's mashup of Nord Electro and Piano 5, lots of real time control.  So which does all the MIDI y'all want?   

[CyberGene]

7 hours ago, Al Coda said:

 

BS !

 

With that attitude, the YC didn´t need MIDI I/O at all !

 

A.C.

 

 

Well, OK, I agree about features added to any instrument if they are needed. I doubt it's difficult for Yamaha to add the ability to set receiving MIDI channels of the three parts (organ, key A, key B).

 

What I meant is there's already a pretty good 4-zone master controller functionality, as well as good functionality to assign one external keyboard to control the three parts. Now, adding a second external keyboard is what would not work but I was wondering how many people use the YC with not one but two external keyboards and why?

 

P.S. Actually I see why. A second waterfall keyboard as a second manual for the organ and a hammer action controller for the piano part. Makes sense. But still, not sure how many people need that but Yamaha are recently listening to their customers, so they may add it.

[Al Coda]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

 

Well, OK, I agree about features added to any instrument if they are needed. I doubt it's difficult for Yamaha to add the ability to set receiving MIDI channels of the three parts (organ, key A, key B).

 

What I meant is there's already a pretty good 4-zone master controller functionality, as well as good functionality to assign one external keyboard to control the three parts. Now, adding a second external keyboard is what would not work but I was wondering how many people use the YC with not one but two external keyboards and why?

 

P.S. Actually I see why. A second waterfall keyboard as a second manual for the organ and a hammer action controller for the piano part. Makes sense. But still, not sure how many people need that but Yamaha are recently listening to their customers, so they may add it.

 

 

That´s all totally unimportant w/ the background of a multi-keyboard rig where you typically set ALL your MIDI controller keyboards (w/ int. soundengine) to MIDI "Local OFF" and then have the freedom playing everything from everywhere,- hardware and software in combination and more.

This is extremely helpful when playing in standing position and w/ p.ex. a U-configuration setup.

And in a studio where you mount gear to the walls, have it on shelfs and stands all across the room,- it´s helpful too.

 

I was always a big fan of Yamaha gear which I used intensively for concert touring in the past and it was very reliable always.

But the other side of the coin is Yamaha´s cussed arrogance in regards of MIDI where they always try to go individual ways breaking compatibility or slim line MIDI implementation because THEY know what we (or I) need.

 

For a manufacturer like Yamaha, it´s no challenge at all implementing MIDI RX on individual MIDI channels for each part and subdevisions like "upper / lower manuals and pedal".

It could be a fixed configuration w/ MIDI Chs 1-3 for the organ and 4-6 for the other 3 parts,- or make it freely user programable for "the other 3" parts.

And it would be nice too, when users were able using all the by MIDI standard available MIDI CCs on each individual MIDI channel.

It´s just only what MIDI was invented for decades ago.

It´s stupid makin´ MIDI CCs available for drawbars and then "forget" to implement MIDI CCs for organ C/V on/off for both, the lower- and upper- manual individually.

The latter just only as an example.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[CyberGene]

@AnotherScott how would you rate the feeling of the BHS keyboard in the YC73 now that you had yours for some time? Is it light enough to be good for organ and synths? They describe it as in between the NWX and the waterfall keys of the YC61. I've been digging my YC61 more and more and thinking of either keeping it or replacing it with a YC73 but I think I would do only if the BHS is really light feeling. Honestly, for me it would be best if there was a 73-key version with the same waterfall keys  With that in mind, I would jump to the BHS only if it's very lightweight and non-tiring to play. If it's closer to the heavy NWX, I would pass.

[funkyhammond]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

how would you rate the feeling of the BHS keyboard in the YC73 

 

I tried the YC73 in a store several days ago. It does not feel light, just not as heavy as a grand piano style action. I don't find it any easier for fast organ techniques compared to other weighted actions, if you care about that. I'm not sure if I liked the action overall, even for pianos. It felt slightly mushy or something at the bottom of the key travel. I'm sure it would be fine for live playing but I probably would want a nicer action for playing at home. And there are some complaints about fast repeated playing on the black keys of the 73 but I only found that out afterwards and didn't get a chance to test that. So I might be looking at the 88 if I do get the YC. I really prefer the 73 form factor, though.