MacBook choices, internal debate

[octa]

My Windows PC performs well other than the occasional crackle, but is slowly growing some whiskers. (4690k CPU, 16GB RAM) Thought about upgrading motherboard/CPU/RAM but instead I'm looking to get an M1 MacBook. 

 

Money is an issue, but I may be ignoring that and am thinking about springing for 2021 14" M1 Pro, 32GB RAM, 2TB SSD, 10 core. The convenience of extra ports, portability, being future proof as possible and 2X reading speed on SSD are the main motivation behind this choice. 

 

At the same time, I've been keeping an eye on eBay/craigslist/Apple Refurbished for a 2020 M1 MBP or Air, with 2TB SSD and 16GB RAM. This would be the wiser choice financially and may be almost as future proof, given my needs. 

 

I'll be using MacBook for MainStage with various virtual instruments (Garritan, Modern U, Keyscape, Omnisphere), Logic or Reaper (20 - 30 tracks max) and that's about it.

 

For these purposes, do you think the 2021 MBP is overkill? I hear multi-core performance is not as important as single core when dealing with music production, and the 2020 models may do just as well. And also seems like I've heard the faster SSD will just load samples into RAM faster, but M1 chip will perform just as well on 2020 MBP's once loaded. 32GB RAM may be the main draw for future proofing. I'm also not sure 10 core instead of 8 core is necessary, on newest MBP. 

 

I've been reading forums and watching YouTube for days and and any input is helpful. Thanks. 

[Michael W]

I just upgraded two weeks ago - I needed to replace my 2013 27" iMac (8MB, 1TB SATA) running Logic, DP, Omnisphere, etc.  Money was a consideration.

 

Long story short - I finally decided on:

 

- Mac Mini M1 8GB RAM, 256 GB SSD  ($699)

- LG 27" QHD (2530x1440) Monitor  ($219)

- SanDisk USB-C 500GB SSD ($89)

- Apple Magic Keyboard with Touch ID ($149)

 

This computer is ridiculously fast.

 

I opted for the Mac Mini M1 over the Macbook Air M1 because:

 

- It offers much more in terms of connectivity/inputs

- The Mini can support two monitors while the Macbook Air M1 can only support one external

- My eyes are older, and I really need a larger screen for music production

 

I loaded all of my apps on the Mini's internal SSD but all of the massive sound libraries (Logic, Omnisphere, Kontakt, etc.) on the external SSD.

 

Why the external SSD?  Because it was cheaper than buying an Apple device with larger internal capacity.  750GB total storage is more than enough for me at this point, and I can always add another drive if I need to.  FWIW, the SanDisk SSD is very fast, with transfer speeds up to 1,050 MB/s.

 

Just another option to consider.  😀

 

 

[octa]

That setup looks great, Michael. And good to hear the mini M1 is "ridiculously fast" given we're using similar apps. This may persuade me to stick with 2020 M1 setups and use the money saved to buy other musical equipment, and food.  

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

At this stage of the game the majority of audio production’s needs are being met by both Apple’s and Intel’s best silicon. An M1, i7 or Xeon with enough ram and fast storage is going to be able to do piles of audio tracks, VSTs and insert FX.  In many cases even at very low buffer settings.  It’s really video production at ever higher definition that is pushing for more cores and discrete processing.  

 

For the next 5 years Apple will be supporting both their Intel and M1 machines. So I’d pick something adequately powerful for your needs and expect like we always do - that it will be good enough for a good while before there’s an adequate reason to upgrade.  My advice is don’t be stingy on RAM and Storage from the get go. Order it so it’ll be enough 5+ years out. 

[Marzzz]

I opted for the 16” M1 Max 32GB, my thought is you get as much as you can now because you want to future-proof it, and because you can’t otherwise upgrade components. I should have opted for a 2 TB drive though. 

[KuruPrionz]

I dove in a few months ago. Part of me said to wait and another part said "get it while you can". 

My 2014 MacBook Pro with 16gb of RAM has been pretty OK but keeping latency down to low levels started to get a bit "iffy". 

 

I went with an Apple Refurbished M1 Mac Mini with 16gb RAM and 512 gigs SSD. I have externals, both SSD and fast spinners. So far so good, the M1 is much faster than the 2014 Intel chip (no surprise there?). 

 

Moving forward, I don't see any way you can go wrong at this point. I agree with ElmerJFudd, video is leading the push for faster computers and audio is in a pretty safe zone with all the current upgrades. I'm no longer concerned with latency, can just do what I do and have fun. 

[Docbop]

30 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

Moving forward, I don't see any way you can go wrong at this point. I agree with ElmerJFudd, video is leading the push for faster computers and audio is in a pretty safe zone with all the current upgrades. I'm no longer concerned with latency, can just do what I do and have fun. 

After decades in the computer world I would say the more chips give you  the more software developers will take and you're back  to needing a bigger chip.   

[KuruPrionz]

2 minutes ago, Docbop said:

After decades in the computer world I would say the more chips give you  the more software developers will take and you're back  to needing a bigger chip.   

I've been working on getting as many sounds correct going into the box as I can. I've got vocals, bass and guitar covered and am working on drums. 

I could see keyboard players getting deeper into an all-computerized system because the plugins are incredible. I have quite a few of them and a couple of small MIDI controllers (Xkey 25 and Akai MPK 25). I don't play keyboards worth noting but it's nice for pads and beats. 

 

I've also joined the "less is more" crowd in terms of arrangements. I don't need a lot of tracks for what I'm working on now. 

 

So yeah, I think I can keep my head above water for quite some time. 

[PianoMan51]

For those of you with the ‘new’ Macs, have you been able to lower your buffer sizes? My MacBook Pro from 2013 runs well on 128. Getting less with a new processor might give a slightly better feel when using VSTs. 
 

Also, Would getting down to say 32 make it possible to track a vocal without using the direct-through feature of many recording interfaces?

[octa]

9 minutes ago, PianoMan51 said:

Also, Would getting down to say 32 make it possible to track a vocal without using the direct-through feature of many recording interfaces?

Thinking I'd stick with direct-through feature regardless? (for immediacy) Unless applying a plug-in compressor/reverb/etc. helps vocal performance. My RME has built-in effects for tracking in TotalMixFX but haven't tried it. 

 

Well, I went ahead and ordered the newest 14" MBP, 32GB/2TB/10c. Future proofed, for a good while at least. And, most importantly, won't be spending hours a day window shopping and researching! Thanks all. 

[Tusker]

Yes, the software you mentioned will run with the lower spec computer but future proofing is key. Good decision I reckon. 👍

[ElmerJFudd]

51 minutes ago, octa said:

Thinking I'd stick with direct-through feature regardless? (for immediacy) Unless applying a plug-in compressor/reverb/etc. helps vocal performance. My RME has built-in effects for tracking in TotalMixFX but haven't tried it. 

 

Well, I went ahead and ordered the newest 14" MBP, 32GB/2TB/10c. Future proofed, for a good while at least. And, most importantly, won't be spending hours a day window shopping and researching! Thanks all. 

Because you bit the bullet now on spec’ing up you are going to get greatest longevity from the machine if you keep it 8 or more years. Even if you sell it at 5 years out, loaded it will fetch the best resale value and fund your next machine.  Enjoy! And happy music making! 

[Marzzz]

2 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Because you bit the bullet now on spec’ing up you are going to get greatest longevity from the machine if you keep it 8 or more years. Even if you sell it at 5 years out, loaded it will fetch the best resale value and fund your next machine.  Enjoy! And happy music making! 

Exactly- I trade up every 5 years, pretty much whenever Apple makes a major design change. The old machine usually gets me about 1/3 of the way to the new machine.

[cphollis]

The new M1s are impressive whether in a Mac or an iPad.  I don't push audio all that hard on my older Mac and iPad (no orchestral compositions yet), so that wasn't what got me to upgrade.   Trying to edit band videos?  Painful.  Doing things with reactive shader graphics?  Agony.  Trying to do both?  Set it up as an overnight batch job and hope for the best.

 

It turns out that video rendering *and* GL shaders love the M1 architecture, and you see can good scalability in the benchmarks as you add cores and GPUs.   Choose wisely when you buy, as there will be no upgrading of CPU or memory -- although the external storage options look pretty sweet. 

 

Which brings me to the TB4 ports on the new Macbooks -- there is some sick bandwidth here.  A single port can support multiple displays, high-speed storage, LAN connections, a bunch of old USB ports, as well as power the laptop all at once.  No shortage of expansion in addition to a nice set of ports on the laptop itself.

 

Mine will take a while to arrive as I went for a non-standard build: M1 max, 32GB, 1TB.  I am hoping it can handle (a) recording, (b) lighting control, (c) multi-cam livestream and (d) live reactive video -- at the same time and stably for live use.  That usually take multiple laptops, not just one.

 

Geek city.

[Fleer]

I ordered the MBP Max 32c with 64gb of ram and a 4tb ssd, coming from a 2012 MacBook Pro with 16gigs of ram and a 256gb ssd. High time. 

[Reezekeys]

There must be a psychological term that defines how we invariably choose the "better", "faster", etc. computer config even when it's not really needed. I think it's just that gnawing feeling that you're gonna miss out on something, some benefit somewhere down the line that you'll be sorry you didn't go for the higher-priced spread. It's another form of GAS, I suppose.

 

I have an almost nine-year-old Mac that runs my virtual instrument rig on gigs – lots of pianos, strings, organ with many simultaneous voices, along with percussion loops and audio files playing, at a more-than-acceptable buffer of 128. I'm editing a project with about 15 tracks of 96K audio with no slowdowns, just one or two reverb plugins but many eq and dynamics plugs. Again - a late-2013 MacBook Pro with the base config; 2Ghz quad i7 and 8 gigs of ram.

 

Of course I know that my old Mac isn't going to last forever, and I'm stoked to know that with an M1 I'll be able to do everything I can now with tons more CPU headroom. I also see some very cool AI audio software developments (stuff like "spleeter") that I have the feeling I'll want to use at some point. That's progress and it's great, but I think what Barry says here is something to keep in mind for those contemplating going to a new Mac now:

 

 

[Fleer]

Main reason (for me): future proof. That’s why my 2012 MBP lasted until now. 

[dongna]

21 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

There must be a psychological term that defines how we invariably choose the "better", "faster", etc. computer config even when it's not really needed ... I have an almost nine-year-old Mac that runs my virtual instrument rig on gigs – lots of pianos, strings, organ with many simultaneous voices, along with percussion loops and audio files playing, at a more-than-acceptable buffer of 128. I'm editing a project with about 15 tracks of 96K audio with no slowdowns, just one or two reverb plugins but many eq and dynamics plugs. Again - a late-2013 MacBook Pro with the base config; 2Ghz quad i7 and 8 gigs of ram.

 

I'm with ya on this... my Mac Mini is 2012. I forget the processor speed, but it's an i7 and I did upgrade the RAM to 16 GB. Heck, I don't even have an SSD. Runs great for everything music (Logic, Pianoteq, all other VST's I've wanted with no problems). If I upgraded to an SSD I bet it would really fly.

 

The M1 is enticing and all that, but then I stop and think what is it really going to get me? One day I guess...

[Tusker]

Future proofing is not only about the software developers making more power-hungry software in my experience.

 

It's also about the user choosing to have "better" tools, whether that is moving to larger samples, cpu hungry synths, or boutique effects. While I have managed to stay disciplined with some tools (low-cpu Pianoteq still works, yay!) with other tools, I upgraded. I use larger samples and higher cpu reverbs than I thought I would. It feels great to be able to do that.

 

You cannot know what you will need in three years. Allow some room for personal growth.

[octa]

59 minutes ago, Tusker said:

You cannot know what you will need in three years. Allow some room for personal growth.

I can think of a few things I'll need: RAM, an abundance of fast SSD, ports  

[Stokely]

If I was getting a new Mac right now I'd strongly consider NOT getting the newest OS (Monterey).  I'm having major performance issues going from High Sierra to Monterey.  I haven't yet pinned it down to Logic 10.7, my interface not working well with the OS, or particular plugins.   First I had some disk issues with external ssds, that was sorted out.  Now I'm having massive CPU hit on only a couple software instrument tracks.  I used to be able to do dozens--depending on the plugins--without having to think about freezing tracks.  I'm looking into rolling back by putting an older OS on one of my external SSDs (which actually should be faster than my internal 5400 rpm drive).
 

My machine is a 2016 MBP so maybe Monterey doesn't like certain intel-cpu machines (?)   As I say I have to systematically test to see what is causing the cpu usage to skyrocket.

[Reezekeys]

52 minutes ago, Stokely said:

If I was getting a new Mac right now I'd strongly consider NOT getting the newest OS (Monterey).

Nothing to consider, since you can't choose the OS you want with a new Mac; it's Monterey, and you won't be able to install an older MacOS on the machine. If you meant "new" as "new to you", then yes, a previous-gen Mac that can use Big Sur would be a better bet right now. The same video I linked to above (and yay for being able to link to a specific time now!):

 

[cphollis]

The other angle is that you may periodically "buy in" to a new architecture that you hope will last you 10 years or more.  If you live in the Mac world, this will happen eventually to you -- as Apple is exiting the Intel world -- so it's a question of when, not if.

[Reezekeys]

I'm not an Apple apologist or fanboy but I think they've done a pretty good job of making their processor architecture transitions as smooth as could be expected - from the Classic environment, to Rosetta, to Rosetta 2. I wouldn't worry about Intel-only apps suddenly being obsolete although there will undoubtedly be a few that have issues or might not work. What might be a real problem is a developer that goes out of business or stops development on a title – but that can also have an effect when processor architecture stays the same!

[Stokely]

In my case, I evaluated all my plugins to make sure the important ones were going to work--for the most part, they all did.  I did lose two Exponential Audio reverbs (and I would highly recommend NOT buying Exponential products no matter how cheap they are, because Izotope is likely not going to do any further work on them since they made Neoverb.)  It's a shame because R4 and Phoenixverb were my favorite verbs; Phoenix still works for now, but R4 and another one (Excaliber) pass the plugin test but crash Logic when they are used.  Kazrog's True Iron crashes projects immediate when used on a stereo channel, but works on mono ones.  Monterey is a work in progress for some of these manufacturers.

All my main plugins *work*, it's just that something is causing cpu mayhem.  It's not just one plugin as I've experienced it on several projects, but I've yet to really dig in with some testing.

As far as installing an older OS, this is certainly not something I know a lot about--I was given the impression on another forum that you could find the older OSes and install one of them on an external drive, and make that bootable.  That is what I'm considering doing, if it doesn't work I shouldn't lose anything.  Is this not something you can do?

[Reezekeys]

52 minutes ago, Stokely said:

I was given the impression on another forum that you could find the older OSes and install one of them on an external drive, and make that bootable.  That is what I'm considering doing, if it doesn't work I shouldn't lose anything.  Is this not something you can do?

Maybe someone has come up with a hack, but I'm pretty sure you can't install a MacOS version earlier than the one the machine originally shipped with.

 

Older MacOS installers are easy to get, and putting them on a bootable external drive or USB stick is also pretty well documented. I mentioned a website by "dosdude" and his "patcher" apps in another thread here as a very easy & fast way to accomplish this: http://dosdude1.com/software.html. The main purpose of these is to install MacOS on either an unsupported (way older) Mac, or just do a regular install on a supported one – with the work of downloading the installer file from Apple, putting it on the USB stick or partition, then making it bootable, all managed inside this very helpful little app. AFAIK it still won't overcome the limitation I mentioned in my first paragraph.

[RudyS]

I’m waiting for the 64gb M1 Mac mini to replace my i7 2020 32gb Mac mini.

[Stokely]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

Maybe someone has come up with a hack, but I'm pretty sure you can't install a MacOS version earlier than the one the machine originally shipped with.

 

Older MacOS installers are easy to get, and putting them on a bootable external drive or USB stick is also pretty well documented. I mentioned a website by "dosdude" and his "patcher" apps in another thread here as a very easy & fast way to accomplish this: http://dosdude1.com/software.html. The main purpose of these is to install MacOS on either an unsupported (way older) Mac, or just do a regular install on a supported one – with the work of downloading the installer file from Apple, putting it on the USB stick or partition, then making it bootable, all managed inside this very helpful little app. AFAIK it still won't overcome the limitation I mentioned in my first paragraph.

Ah, ok I didn't think of that distinction.   I don't even recall what OS mine originally had, something before High Sierra because I remember doing one previous upgrade.

First I'll do what I can to fix things up in Monterey.  If it's a particular plugin or two, I'll find alternatives.  My gut feeling though is that it's not that simple.  Even with only a couple tracks of *audio* running with reverb and compression (after rendering software instrument tracks out in order to mix) I was flirting with high CPU amounts.

[Tusker]

2 hours ago, Stokely said:

In my case, I evaluated all my plugins to make sure the important ones were going to work--for the most part, they all did.  I did lose two Exponential Audio reverbs (and I would highly recommend NOT buying Exponential products no matter how cheap they are, because Izotope is likely not going to do any further work on them since they made Neoverb.)  It's a shame because R4 and Phoenixverb were my favorite verbs; Phoenix still works for now, but R4 and another one (Excaliber) pass the plugin test but crash Logic when they are used.  Kazrog's True Iron crashes projects immediate when used on a stereo channel, but works on mono ones.  Monterey is a work in progress for some of these manufacturers.

All my main plugins *work*, it's just that something is causing cpu mayhem.  It's not just one plugin as I've experienced it on several projects, but I've yet to really dig in with some testing.

As far as installing an older OS, this is certainly not something I know a lot about--I was given the impression on another forum that you could find the older OSes and install one of them on an external drive, and make that bootable.  That is what I'm considering doing, if it doesn't work I shouldn't lose anything.  Is this not something you can do?

Yeah it sucks, because the EA reverbs are so very good. Izotope put R4, Phoenixverb, Excalibur, Nimbus etc on their "no planned compatibility with silicon" list, so unfortunately I think you are right. Textbook "product rationalization" after acquisition. Kazrog says they are still working on Monterey compatibility so maybe there is hope there. I struggled to learn Reaktor and since NI's Acquisition by Franciso partners last year, I've been waiting for that hammer to fall. Time to learn Bitwig?

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

Ah, ok I didn't think of that distinction.   I don't even recall what OS mine originally had, something before High Sierra because I remember doing one previous upgrade.

First I'll do what I can to fix things up in Monterey.  If it's a particular plugin or two, I'll find alternatives.  My gut feeling though is that it's not that simple.  Even with only a couple tracks of *audio* running with reverb and compression (after rendering software instrument tracks out in order to mix) I was flirting with high CPU amounts.

I thought you had a new M1 Mac with Monterey so were stuck there! You can definitely go back to Big Sur, or even an older MacOS, as long as it's not older than the one that was on your machine when it was brand new. Unfortunately you may need to wipe your drive first since the more recent MacOSes create new, hidden volumes not seen on earlier OSes.