Using SSv3 for piano? Tried adding a sub?

[ElmerJFudd]

I did a search, I believe it was hardware who picked up a Behringer powered subwoofer to pair with the SSV3. I"m not sure if the application was for piano or organ or everything. I think the stereo imagery is really pleasant on piano, but admittedly, it would benefit from being able to reproduce some more under 100htz.

 

Has anyone else tried this pairing? Thoughts? Worth the effort?

 

The Behringer Eurolive B1200D-PRO goes for $329. Specs say frequency range is 45Hz-180Hz. Width and depth are about 14'x16' so fits nicely under the SSv3"s 11'x11'.

[timwat]

I think we had a bit of a thread on the SSv3 going a bit ago...that's of course a tremendous understatement, as that thread grew to over 100 pages and I think has the record for the longest thread in this forum's history (db or Joe can probably verify or correct this).

 

I bought and still own a SSv3, and Aspen Pittman helped me directly with service issues before his sad and untimely passing.

 

You're correct, several folks tried pairing the unit with other speakers - some of us used a powered subwoofer as noted above, some of used a standard bass combo amp, etc.

 

FWIW, my short answer for acoustic piano work:

 

I pair my SS with a standard powered PA speaker.

 

For me this is stacking a single DXR8 on top of the SSv3, aligning them so the front baffles are in-line. I then feed stereo out from the piano into the SSv3, and feed the "sub out" (which is actually a full range line level sum of the inputs) into the DXR. This seems to get the best of both worlds - it provides the magic spacial "girth" of the SSv3, while providing more solidity and focus (for lack of better descriptions) for the piano, at least for my ears. In other words, what I was dissatisfied for piano work was I felt the SS was colored and left the AP sound lacking centrality and punch (sorry, two more poor attempts at describing what I hear), and adding the powered PA speaker helped restore that to the overall sound. I didn't ever feel that, for AP work, the SS was primarily lacking bottom end - at least not to my ears.

 

Now, for electronic dance band work, yeah, I felt the SS needed some help with the bottom end - but that's not what this thread is asking about.

[cedar]

I use the SSV3 and Behringer sub for organ. And I often use the SS just for piano gigs. I don't really like the SS for piano, but tend to use it anyone just for the convenience.

 

But I've actually never tried the SS + Behringer for piano. Frankly, it just never occurred to me. If I'm going to schlep two different items for amplification, I guess I 've just reflexively opted for PA speakers.

[Doerfler]

I myself used a Seismic Audio Really Mini Tremor with my SSV3. Worked OK. I remember Al Quinn purchased a Behringer sub for his SS3. I'm prety sure he has sold both, as have I.

[drawback]

I had a B1200D for my Spacestation but opted instead for a bass amp, which I used for lower freq reinforcement from the SSV3 sub out, or for dedicated bass when I did LHB. Just more versatile than the subwoofer alone. As far as the original question, yeah I did like what the sub did to even out the sound. Tim"s method seems the most reasonable to me these days.

[ElmerJFudd]

Hmmm this makes me wonder if pairing it with a PA speaker and using a crossover to dial in additional depth and volume might be effective. I"m not thrilled at the Behringer subs 45lbs either way.

[counterpoint]

For me this is stacking a single DXR8 on top of the SSv3, aligning them so the front baffles are in-line. I then feed stereo out from the piano into the SSv3, and feed the "sub out" (which is actually a full range line level sum of the inputs) into the DXR. This seems to get the best of both worlds - it provides the magic spacial "girth" of the SSv3, while providing more solidity and focus (for lack of better descriptions) for the piano, at least for my ears. In other words, what I was dissatisfied for piano work was I felt the SS was colored and left the AP sound lacking centrality and punch (sorry, two more poor attempts at describing what I hear), and adding the powered PA speaker helped restore that to the overall sound. I didn't ever feel that, for AP work, the SS was primarily lacking bottom end - at least not to my ears.

 

I wasn't at all happy with the piano sound from the SSV3 alone but not because of a lack of bottom end...just too many muddy mids. I purchased a pair of ZXA-1's that sound great but I have a gig in a few months that will be on a larger stage with lots of band members. I'm going to need to use one of the ZXA's for something else so I've been experimenting with the other ZXA in combo with the SSV3, wired the same as timwat but placing the front speaker of the SSV3 face down to mute it and the A-B speaker sideways 90 degrees to the ZXA. Everything including the piano sounds are improved with that arrangement compared to the SSV3 alone, but I'm really struggling to get the right balance between the ZXA and the SSV3 side speaker. I'm also concerned that when I get into the room for the gig, I'm going to have to spend a lot of time recalibrating. It will just be used as a monitor for me as I will go direct for FOH....but I still want it to sound decent.

[drawback]

Hmmm this makes me wonder if pairing it with a PA speaker and using a crossover to dial in additional depth and volume might be effective. I"m not thrilled at the Behringer subs 45lbs either way.

 

 

That little QSC CP8 might work out. Good specs, lightweight and low price.

[ElmerJFudd]

All good info. Thanks all for the feedback.

[ElmerJFudd]

Thoughts on a small box to use as a dial in crossover? Not looking to carry a rack. Would an LPF do the job? Products?

[Al Quinn]

I paired the SSV3 with an RCF TT08A to get a piano sound that I liked; the TT08A was driven by the SSV3 Sub Out. When I placed the TT08A on top of the SSV3 I heard a conflict with the SSV3 front speaker so I positioned the SSV3 with the front speaker facing the floor to effectively silence it and placed the TT08A on top of the face down SSV3. This speaker combo sounds great for piano, organ, and everything else.

 

Here"s some audio I posted a few years ago on the big SSV3 thread:

 

SSV3 TT08A combo audio recording

[cphollis]

I use the Behringer PRO sub as above, simply feeding "sub out" (actually full-range) to the SSv3. Al Quinn's positioning with the TT08A (or similar) is really clever as well. I think I tried each a few times back when, then shifted to a pair of PA units if the SSv3 standalone wasn't going to cut it. If you're going to bring two pieces, why not two PA units?

 

The SSv3 continues to shine (without help) in smaller, intimate gigs where filling the space evenly is important. If I didn't have one, I'd probably get one. I even have several programs just for the SSv3 -- smiley face EQ, etc. They sound pretty good through the SSv3 but way overdone through other PA units.

 

I was playing outside not too long ago, and had this EP patch with a hard ping pong. Lots of confused looks, wondering where the heck that sound was coming from.

[Reezekeys]

I feel bad for you guys. You buy a speaker, realize it doesn't sound good on one of the main instrument sounds you use on a gig, then get a second, different speaker to somehow fix, or make up for its deficiencies? Something does not compute. Not trying to be a kvetch, just wanting to understand.

[ElmerJFudd]

I feel bad for you guys. You buy a speaker, realize it doesn't sound good on one of the main instrument sounds you use on a gig, then get a second, different speaker to somehow fix, or make up for its deficiencies? Something does not compute. Not trying to be a kvetch, just wanting to understand.

 

There is truth in this. But what the SSv3 does do well is throw out imagery. It"s very noticeable, and there"s a knob for the width. I wouldn"t be interested in putting it on its side to shut down the side speaker. (I play a lot of piano, but the thing sounds cool as heck on organ with Leslie simulator as well). And as far as the EQ curve, that"s easily handled on the digital piano assuming yours has a sweepable mid. For me it could just use a little more low end.

[Al Quinn]

Elmer, just to make sure there"s no confusion: I face the SSV3 with the front speaker to the floor. The side speakers are not blocked at all.

 

Rob, fair question. In my case, I bought the SSV3 for organ trio gigs and pair it with a MarkBass CMP121 bass amp. Sounds great, the Leslie effect is awesome! Did many gigs with this combo. I bought the TT08As for jazz piano gigs and they sound great. Then I found myself doing Electric Blues / Classic Rock gigs where I needed great organ and AP; I found TT08A/SSV3 was the best choice with the gear I already owned. Fast forward to today and I"m using the Motion Sound KP-610S for the Electric Blues / Classic Rock gigs but this amp wasn"t available when I bought the other gear. I"m still glad I have the TT08As because they"re an awesome lightweight PA which I sometimes need. Very happy to have the MarkBass amp as it gets used by bass players who come to my house to play. The organ trio gigs? Where did they go? I don"t know. After reading my explanation you may still feel bad for me but don"t: I"m happy.

[DJkeys]

I had an SSV3 at one point. I sold it because it just wasn't versatile enough. It sounded great on Organ/Leslie, but was really lacking for Piano. Plus, at a lot of gigs, trying to get the right placement for the sound imagery was just too difficult most of the time. When a Jazz piano player came with his buddy to try it out, I set it up in my garage. I was also selling a pair of QSC K10s (to buy the 8.2s). I explained to him that using the sub out to another speaker would give him more low end. He tried that then asked me to run the SS3 and the 2 K10s, all three speakers. Both him and his friend loved that sound and bought all three pieces from me.

 

-dj

[Reezekeys]

Fair enough guys, being happy with your sound is the bottom line - I just feel sorry for your backs (and your wallets)! Maybe I'm just lucky I'm happy with my pair of K8s that perform great (imo) on every sound I use.

 

If I can be contrarian a little more though (must be the weather!) - I really don't get how a subwoofer would be needed for an acoustic piano sound. I guess I'll have to find someone on a gig with one and maybe I'll understand. I know that when I'm playing a real grand piano, the amount of actual low end I hear is not what I would think you'd need a sub to reproduce.

[ElmerJFudd]

Acoustic grand piano definitely delivers low end that is beneath what many 8' PA speakers are rated to reproduce. If you play solo and/or are the bass in your combo, it"s nice to have, of course you can live without it. Right now I more often use a Mackie SRM350, 10', gets down into the low 50s Htz wise. When playing with a bass player my left hand doesn"t even reach for that area of the keyboard - I don"t enjoy muddying up what he/she is already covering. Low end isn"t my job on the bandstand either. But this is theoretical. I haven"t used a sub with SSv3, so I am not sure if it"s worth it or how it will sound. Asking for feedback from those who have tried it.

[timwat]

I feel bad for you guys. You buy a speaker, realize it doesn't sound good on one of the main instrument sounds you use on a gig, then get a second, different speaker to somehow fix, or make up for its deficiencies? Something does not compute. Not trying to be a kvetch, just wanting to understand.

 

There is a LOT of truth in this, to be honest.

 

I bought the thing based on the rave reviews and endless discussion in that very long thread. When it arrived, I was indeed knocked out by the imaging thing - and completely underwhelmed by the rest. It wasn't loud enough, it wasn't uncolored enough, and it didn't sound great to me.

 

So I tried to trust that when I brought it out on the gig, the 3D thing would take care of my doubts. It didn't. I was essentially drowned out by the band - although it was nice to have a much smaller, lighter schlep.

 

Pairing it with the gear I already owned was an experiment to try to redeem the purchase. And for AP, it DOES sound better overall when paired with one of my DXR8s.

 

But I guess for me the final conclusion is...I don't gig it anymore, it just sits in my garage. I'm not going to carry two different amps for a marginally better effect, when carrying one powered PA speaker will do the job quite handily, at least not at my age.

[Reezekeys]

Acoustic grand piano definitely delivers low end that is beneath what many 8' PA speakers are rated to reproduce. If you play solo and/or are the bass in your combo, it"s nice to have, of course you can live without it. Right now I more often use a Mackie SRM350, 10', gets down into the low 50s Htz wise. When playing with a bass player my left hand doesn"t even reach for that area of the keyboard - I don"t enjoy muddying up what he/she is already covering. Low end isn"t my job on the bandstand either. But this is theoretical. I haven"t used a sub with SSv3, so I am not sure if it"s worth it or how it will sound. Asking for feedback from those who have tried it.

Published specs on a speaker usually give you the response with a "+/-" db figure. It's not exactly correct to say there is no output below 50 or 60Hz in a smaller-woofered speaker like a 10" or 8" - there's just less. More to the point, I'm talking about the actual amount of acoustic energy at those frequencies. For my Native Instruments Grandeur piano to sound "natural" to me through my two K8s, I absolutely have to roll off low end - quite a bit actually. On a real grand, you're sitting a few feet away from a vibrating string and resonating soundboard pushing air into a room. On a gig you have a (typically) close-miked sample coming out of a speaker; two very different "origin points" of sound. I'm not surprised in the least that I have to roll off lows (even on my tiny 8" K8s!), and why I'm surprised to hear folks saying they need a subwoofer to play their DP through!

[drawback]

I feel bad for you guys. You buy a speaker, realize it doesn't sound good on one of the main instrument sounds you use on a gig, then get a second, different speaker to somehow fix, or make up for its deficiencies? Something does not compute. Not trying to be a kvetch, just wanting to understand.

 

There is a LOT of truth in this, to be honest.

 

I bought the thing based on the rave reviews and endless discussion in that very long thread. When it arrived, I was indeed knocked out by the imaging thing - and completely underwhelmed by the rest. It wasn't loud enough, it wasn't uncolored enough, and it didn't sound great to me.

 

So I tried to trust that when I brought it out on the gig, the 3D thing would take care of my doubts. It didn't. I was essentially drowned out by the band - although it was nice to have a much smaller, lighter schlep.

 

Pairing it with the gear I already owned was an experiment to try to redeem the purchase. And for AP, it DOES sound better overall when paired with one of my DXR8s.

 

But I guess for me the final conclusion is...I don't gig it anymore, it just sits in my garage. I'm not going to carry two different amps for a marginally better effect, when carrying one powered PA speaker will do the job quite handily, at least not at my age.

 

I found the volume to be deceptive. There were a few times some friends in an audience would remark the keyboards were too loud about 20 feet out. My problem was I couldn't hear myself â so I got in the habit of using an amp stand and tilting the front speaker so it faced up at me, side speaker down.

 

Otherwise, Tim, every other point is spot on with my own sentiments. It's currently for sale (I guess the two or three KC members here in town aren't gonna be interested at this point, lol)!

[ElmerJFudd]

Acoustic grand piano definitely delivers low end that is beneath what many 8' PA speakers are rated to reproduce. If you play solo and/or are the bass in your combo, it"s nice to have, of course you can live without it. Right now I more often use a Mackie SRM350, 10', gets down into the low 50s Htz wise. When playing with a bass player my left hand doesn"t even reach for that area of the keyboard - I don"t enjoy muddying up what he/she is already covering. Low end isn"t my job on the bandstand either. But this is theoretical. I haven"t used a sub with SSv3, so I am not sure if it"s worth it or how it will sound. Asking for feedback from those who have tried it.

Published specs on a speaker usually give you the response with a "+/-" db figure. It's not exactly correct to say there is no output below 50 or 60Hz in a smaller-woofered speaker like a 10" or 8" - there's just less. More to the point, I'm talking about the actual amount of acoustic energy at those frequencies. For my Native Instruments Grandeur piano to sound "natural" to me through my two K8s, I absolutely have to roll off low end - quite a bit actually. On a real grand, you're sitting a few feet away from a vibrating string and resonating soundboard pushing air into a room. On a gig you have a (typically) close-miked sample coming out of a speaker; two very different "origin points" of sound. I'm not surprised in the least that I have to roll off lows (even on my tiny 8" K8s!), and why I'm surprised to hear folks saying they need a subwoofer to play their DP through!

 

I think the need to roll off is related to a lot of things, including the size, shape, construction of the room. This past weekend I was outside for 7 hours. No roll off, I was looking for more bass. If we did gig with more than a 3 band EQ (hopefully with sweepable mid) we could tweak for that half hour before hit and hopefully find something we"re happy with. But, yes, definitely rooms can get boomy and magnify, multiply frequencies we need to pull back problem spots. Which frequencies those are varies. An HPF is a pretty blunt instrument, works great on limited range stuff like the human voice. On a full range instrument like piano it"s nice to have more control.

[Delaware Dave]

I feel bad for you guys. You buy a speaker, realize it doesn't sound good on one of the main instrument sounds you use on a gig, then get a second, different speaker to somehow fix, or make up for its deficiencies? Something does not compute. Not trying to be a kvetch, just wanting to understand.

and in this case the answer is a 2nd speaker (a sub-woofer); I would at that point just buy 2 high powered 12" monitors and get true stereo and bass for days. to boot, you could opt to bring one, still be loud and still get sufficient bass. If i had to purchase a bass bin, which is a 2nd speaker then for me the answer would be instead to purchase 2 monitors for true stereo and sell the SSV3.

[hardware]

I used the SSv3 for rehearsals, and for small stages added the B1220D.

I never thought a single 8' Emminence speaker could be a viable option.

But the Sub does allow the combination to sound really good in situations where you want a louder stage sound.

 

I prefer the K8.2s and B1220D, and on bigger gigs TT08As w/ a 15' RCF Sub.

I can adjust a small stand and rack to fit over the sub/tree.

 

On larger stages the pair of KW153"s is plenty, lots of 15's no need for a sub.

Much more volume and punch too.

 

 

[drawback]

I was using the amp that day for a Hillary Clinton fundraiser gig...the other was a Biden fundraiser....

 

So, you used it "moderately," so to speak?

[Joe Muscara]

I think we had a bit of a thread on the SSv3 going a bit ago...that's of course a tremendous understatement, as that thread grew to over 100 pages and I think has the record for the longest thread in this forum's history (db or Joe can probably verify or correct this).

You can as well, just click on the Replies header and the threads are sorted by number of replies. Clicking again toggles it so you can switch between most and least. The "Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back" thread has 5775 replies and over 13 million views, the most of either for any thread here.

 

(Click back on Last Post to get the threads back in most recent order.)

[Morrissey]

I'm in the camp that's willing to sacrifice sonic bliss to avoid hauling extra gear, so I've only ever gigged my SSv3 on its own. I'm generally happy with how it sounds on its own. Like others, if I'm worried it won't be enough, I use a different amplification strategy (e.g., powered PA speakers). I remember following the subwoofer discussion in the giant SSv3 as it unfolded. I was tempted to pick up that Behringer several times but ultimately didn't and haven't regretted it.

 

However, this thread is prompting me to plan some home experimentation with blending the SSv3 with a powered PA speaker.

[Delaware Dave]

Didn't Aspen release a newer version where there was more bottom end? Do we have anyone using that newer version and can they report whether or not the newer version covers the bass appropriately and provides enough loudness so that the answer is purchase the newer version and all of the weaknesses of the SSV3 are covered within a 1 box solution?

[DaveMcM]

I have the SSv3 and Behringer B1200D and really like the combination. I agree with those that don't particularly care for acoustic piano through the SSv3 although I have done many gigs using the set-up. Last year when I was at Sweetwater I picked up a Motion Sound KP610S figuring it would improve the acoustic piano sound but still work great for stereo rotary speaker emulation. Acoustic piano is more pleasing (using the B1200D sub) but there is pretty much zero stereo imaging. The SpaceStation is way better imo. I also have a Fender 200 SFX keyboard amp from 1998 which is the SpaceStation on steroids (see pic in attachment). Aspen licensed the SFX technology to Fender years ago. It sounds great on acoustic piano, organ/rotary, and anything else you though at it. With that knowledge, I just ordered/received a SpaceStation XL. I think that will be the winner. Anybody want to by a KP610S

[Doerfler]

I remember when those Fender amps arrived at the retail store where I was working at the time. Don't remember them getting much traction