New Studiologic Numa X Piano

[TomKittel]

10 hours ago, RandyFF said:

Still wondering what the heck the Duplex does

It is a very subtle decay effect in the upper octaves. only audible with good studio monitors. too much of it results in a metallic sound with artifacts.

[TomKittel]

11 hours ago, RandyFF said:

Still wondering what the heck the Duplex does.

Here is an explanation of the Duplex scale:

 

Duplex scale refers to the string sections between the bridge and frame of a grand piano. They generate string resonance and enrich the piano sound with overtones. Duplex scales are sections of the playing sides outside the string area that is struck directly by the hammer. The aim of the duplex scale is to enrich the string vibration with a mixture of high frequencies, which provides more brilliance in the sound.
 

The Duplex Scale was patented by Steinway & Sons and goes back to the Centennial Concert Grand concert grand piano developed in 1875. This grand piano is considered the direct predecessor of the D-274 model, which was built in 1884.
 

Modern digital pianos take into account many sound details in addition to the basic sound of the note struck. In dynamic interaction, these simulate the complex sound behavior of the acoustic piano. The Duplex Scale can be found as a parameter in some digital pianos. If you experiment with it, you can easily understand the influence of the Duplex Scale: It gives the piano sound more radiance, while the short decay of staccato notes is enriched with a high-pitched buzz.
 

The general rule for sound details is: less is more! As a means of shaping the sound, details can be emphasized more than would normally be perceived on the original instrument. You should always be aware that such interventions distort the sound. This applies in particular to the duplex scale, as it becomes noticeable as an intrusive mix of trebles when overemphasized.

 

[RandyFF]

Tom,

Thanks.... have listened with headphones and not heard any difference even with duplex cranked up,  but now that I know it's about the treble I'll experiment further.  I often liberally use String Resonance to create a shimmering of the tinkle notes, just love it. 

 

Am also a huge fan of the half-pedal, and have several full-sized sweep pedals that I use for half-pedalling, it gives me greater control of how much I'm sustaining than the usual sustain pedals.  It's become my go to effect and my learning curve, how to play with infinitely variable sustain of any given sound.

? But I notice a lot of sounds do not respond to half-pedaling, not sure why that is

[Velour100]

Hi everyone!

I'm Gerwin, from the Netherlands and playing for a long time on piano. I had a Korg SV1. But due to a technical problem, I needed to buy a new stage piano. I found the Numa X Piano 88 the best for my situation. Light in weight, so easy to carry around.

 

The reason that I'm reaching out to this comunity, is the following problem. If I use the strings, or any other sound in the Ochestra section and some sounds in the Other section, like the Harmonica, you can clearly hear that that are samples. And I don't know what this is. Is this a lack of the quality of the sample? Or, am I doing something wrong?

 

What I mean is, if you press a key, twice, the sound of the first attempt of the key played, is gone and you will hear a fresh started sound for the second time. Even with the sustain pedal pressed down. When I had my Korg SV1, I have never experienced this on that instrument with the same sound.

 

I've reached out to the support team of StudioLogic. But, they told me, that I have to play these sounds, layered only with a accoustic piano sounds or e-piano. But, not on its owne. Is that true? Is that where these sounds were designed to?

 

Hope some of you can answer my question or acknowledge if you are experiencing this problem as well.

 

With kind regards,

 

Gerwin

[counterpoint]

5 hours ago, Velour100 said:

Hi everyone!

I'm Gerwin, from the Netherlands and playing for a long time on piano. I had a Korg SV1. But due to a technical problem, I needed to buy a new stage piano. I found the Numa X Piano 88 the best for my situation. Light in weight, so easy to carry around.

 

The reason that I'm reaching out to this comunity, is the following problem. If I use the strings, or any other sound in the Ochestra section and some sounds in the Other section, like the Harmonica, you can clearly hear that that are samples. And I don't know what this is. Is this a lack of the quality of the sample? Or, am I doing something wrong?

 

What I mean is, if you press a key, twice, the sound of the first attempt of the key played, is gone and you will hear a fresh started sound for the second time. Even with the sustain pedal pressed down. When I had my Korg SV1, I have never experienced this on that instrument with the same sound.

 

I've reached out to the support team of StudioLogic. But, they told me, that I have to play these sounds, layered only with a accoustic piano sounds or e-piano. But, not on its owne. Is that true? Is that where these sounds were designed to?

 

Hope some of you can answer my question or acknowledge if you are experiencing this problem as well.

 

With kind regards,

 

Gerwin

 

Gerwin...just checked out what I think you are saying...and yes...if you retrigger the same note of a string sound, even with the sustain pedal engaged, it "terminates" the previous note...but it still sustains it if you hit a different note.  I had never noticed this before...but I actually like this feature.  I'm not sure if Studiologic designed this because they think it improves playability or to preserve polyphony. 

 

I have a YC61 with which I have very few complaints, but if you hit the same note repeatedly with the sustain pedal down, it doesn't terminate the previous note, and you get what I call "pile-up".  For EP's for example, I think it detracts from realism as if you did that on a real Rhodes/Wurly of course, only one version of a note can be sounding at a time.  The YC61 has a further irritating feature with its strings that if you sustain them, disengage the sustain pedal to move to another chord, and then re-engage the sustain pedal, the fading string sounds from the previous chord reappear (in whatever stage of the release point they would have been) sometimes creating a muddy mess.  I'll have to play around with the Numa more now to figure out how its set-up effects playability.

[Velour100]

17 hours ago, counterpoint said:

 

Gerwin...just checked out what I think you are saying...and yes...if you retrigger the same note of a string sound, even with the sustain pedal engaged, it "terminates" the previous note...but it still sustains it if you hit a different note.  I had never noticed this before...but I actually like this feature.  I'm not sure if Studiologic designed this because they think it improves playability or to preserve polyphony. 

 

I have a YC61 with which I have very few complaints, but if you hit the same note repeatedly with the sustain pedal down, it doesn't terminate the previous note, and you get what I call "pile-up".  For EP's for example, I think it detracts from realism as if you did that on a real Rhodes/Wurly of course, only one version of a note can be sounding at a time.  The YC61 has a further irritating feature with its strings that if you sustain them, disengage the sustain pedal to move to another chord, and then re-engage the sustain pedal, the fading string sounds from the previous chord reappear (in whatever stage of the release point they would have been) sometimes creating a muddy mess.  I'll have to play around with the Numa more now to figure out how its set-up effects playability.

Ok, thanks that you also found out that it works the way I said. Anyone else thoughts about my question?

[SLHQC]

New major firmware update released:

 

Numa X Piano 2.4 - Acoustic Modeling update (studiologic-music.com)

 

Acoustic Modeling is the technology that makes every acoustic piano sound of Numa X Piano so real thanks to an accurate mix of sampling, wave shaping and physical modeling.

 

We are excited to announce Acoustic Modeling 2, the most significant update for acoustic piano sounds, included in the firmware 2.4 for Numa X Piano and Numa X Piano GT.

 

New Sympathetic Resonance

When you press a key of an acoustic piano, other strings vibrate sympathetically, creating a complex, rich sound that’s greater than the sum of its parts. With the new algorithm introduced in Acoustic Modeling 2, Numa X Piano can now reproduce the complex interactions between strings, achieving a rich and nuanced tonal depth that dynamically responds to your touch.

 

Rewritten String Resonance

The String Resonance algorithm has been completely rewritten to enhance the realism of sustained notes and chords by accurately simulating the vibrations of all strings as you play.

 

Enhanced Duplex Resonance

The Duplex Resonance now emulates the additional harmonics produced by the strings even more accurately, resulting in a richer and clearer sound.

Repeated notes detection

 

The firmware update 2.4 also brings a significant improvement in the detection of repeated notes, greatly enhancing the responsiveness and accuracy of the keyboard. We made sure that notes played quickly, especially in techniques such as ribattuto, are captured with precision, allowing seamless repetition without losing the clarity or intensity of each note.

 

[Stan Martin]

Just upgraded to 2.4. IMO - 

 

I hear the duplex and string resonance when using the sustain pedal. Holding the pedal down accentuates the effect of hearing all the other strings inside the grand harmonically responding to the sound waves of the played string(s).

 

One thing that many piano players have had to deal with is - here's the acoustic grand/upright you have, now it's your responsibility to make it sound as good as you can. If you listen to much Monk, you'll hear that many of his recordings were done on out of tune pianos. We've all just had to make the best out of it, or bring a synth that emulates the pitch but can be transported and has a crappy tone. I just got off a cruise ship and felt sorry for the keyboard player who was obviously talented but had the crappiest tone from on old Roland setup

 

SL is giving me another tweak to my tone which, probably cannot be recognized in a band mix. However, recording on your own, and not using any compression to celebrate dynamism within your own fingers releases another level of expression.  I'll share one of my creations soon. Just finished a bunch of recording and will be putting it up on Bandbox

[HammondDave]

Wouldn’t it be nice for Yamaha, Nord, Roland, Korg, Hammond/Suzuki, etc to stop sitting on their lauerels and learn a lesson from the smaller Italian MI companies who regularly improve their products through free firmware updates?   

[Stan Martin]

Add Kurzweil to that list

 

[AnotherScott]

On 11/9/2023 at 5:12 PM, CyberGene said:

Yes, I’ve owned YC61, YC73, Numa X Piano 88, CP88, Numa X Piano 73, CK61 in that order. I kept the Numa X 73 and the CK61. The Numa for the action and the extended range. The CK for being an ultra portable keyboard that I use with its backpack-style bag.

 

I think the Yamahas are definitely better in almost any respect than the Numa but not by much. 

 

Reading that, I wondered if you ever tried using MIDI to drive some of your CK61 sounds (pianos/EPs in particular) as external zones from your Numa X. I wonder how that experience would compare to the piano/EP experience you had with the YC73.

[HammondDave]

“I think the Yamahas are definitely better in almost any respect than the Numa but not by much.”

 

I don’t know… take a listen and play the Numa X with the new 2.4 firmware.  Your opinion may change. 

[DeltaJockey]

I've always wondered about duplex modelling applied to sampled pianos. (but not fully modeled pianos), In that it's likely that the notes of the real piano being sampled already have duplex harmonics captured in the samples? Unless they deliberately process the sample set to remove the recorded duplex, you might have duplex overtones applied to duplex overtones?
🤫

[CyberGene]

9 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I wondered if you ever tried using MIDI to drive some of your CK61 sounds (pianos/EPs in particular) as external zones from your Numa X.

Haven’t tried it yet. I kept them both to rather have a choice for a single keyboard setup, either an ultra-portable CK61 when I’m not with the car, or when just jamming with friends, and the bigger hammer-action Numa X 73 for more serious stuff (but slightly less portable). 

[AnotherScott]

12 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

I've always wondered about duplex modelling applied to sampled pianos. (but not fully modeled pianos), In that it's likely that the notes of the real piano being sampled already have duplex harmonics captured in the samples? Unless they deliberately process the sample set to remove the recorded duplex, you might have duplex overtones applied to duplex overtones?

 

They wouldn't have to process the samples to remove them (probably impossible to do perfectly anyway); they could use felts to silence them before they were even sampled.

 

That said, assuming a system lets you turn the duplex modeling on or off, you could simply choose to only enable it on the sample sets you think it improves, and not on the ones that it doesn't (or makes sound worse).

[b3plyr]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

They wouldn't have to process the samples to remove them (probably impossible to do perfectly anyway); they could use felts to silence them before they were even sampled.

 

Scott is right on about using the felts. And there are other similar ways to do the damping. As to processing the samples, there is a way to do it pretty well. However, the keyboard isn't likely to be able to do so in real time.

[DeltaJockey]

9 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

They could use felts to silence them before they were even sampled.

That's assuming they are capturing the samples with modeled duplex in mind. If they're using old reprocessed samples from rejuvenated libraries, they might not have the luxury. I have the Studiologic Steinway B Tape in mind when I say that, because to me "Tape" implies it's a historic library.

I do agree with you then, that it comes down to selecting the mode which best sound right to you as the end result.

 

Anyway, it's just technical gossip. I can vouch for the excellent sounding pianos in the Numa X!

[RandyFF]

All this talk about duplex resonance doesn’t mean anything for me, I have yet to hear it.  My understanding is that you’re most likely going to hear it in the higher octaves and with sustain pedal applied, must be a pretty subtle effect.

[RandyFF]

What interests me the most, by far, is how does the new piano software tune-up affect String Resonance?  Instead of a regular half-damper sustain pedal, in its place I have been delighting in using a sweep pedal, the SL FP-50 Organ Style Expression Pedal.  

 

With reverb set to just slight sweetening, I push the pedal down all the way and from there adjust the String Resonance, which ends up typically being in the 30’s-40’s range.

 

 I’d originally been setting SR on the high side, like into the 70s to 80s, love the shimmer esp in the higher octaves.  But with this pedal and this kind of playing, I adjust the SR so that it has a reverb kind of effect on the sound, and with the sweep pedal, which of course has a much finer / wider degree of control than a half-damper pedal, I’m able to get the rich, effected sound when I want it, and back off on chord changes and other places where it’d sound muddy from too much effect.  

 

Another application of this, esp for slower pieces, is to simply set and forget the expression pedal for an overall  sustain quality, typically this amounts to using 40-60% of the SR effect.

 

It requires a bit of technique to pull it off, but I LOVE the sound of SR, the trick of course is to not over do it.

 

Overall I like a legato sound, and for me this pedal and this use of the String Resonance effect is extremely satisfying to me!

[jpkeys]

1 hour ago, RandyFF said:

All this talk about duplex resonance doesn’t mean anything for me, I have yet to hear it.  My understanding is that you’re most likely going to hear it in the higher octaves and with sustain pedal applied, must be a pretty subtle effect.

Try this: pick a piano sound, turn reverb, delay and any other effects off. Then play a staccato chord in the middle of the keyboard with duplex at zero then at full. You will hear the difference, it is not subtle. This is with 2.4.0 firmware, don't know how much it's changed compared to prior versions.

[Stan Martin]

On 8/8/2024 at 3:34 PM, TomKittel said:

A rvalued forum member sent me the Piano D file, thank you! I am impressed, indeed the best Numa X piano so far. But you have to adjust the settings a bit to your taste. In my opinion, with the factory settings it sounds a bit tinny like in a can. Pictures of my settings attached if someone wants to check it out.

Edited my settings to this. Sounds nice.  I'll use it for a while.  Thanks

[HammondDave]

7 minutes ago, StansHands said:

Edited my settings to this. Sounds nice.  I'll use it for a while.  Thanks

Yup. Those are the settings I use as well. 

[Stan Martin]

Here's what I've recorded, first in a series for Bandcamp I improvised on Everywhere Everything /Kahan for my daughter's entrance/processional for her wedding

[DeltaJockey]

I've never been a fan of sterile Steinway D libraries from anyone, but I have to say this offering from SL is, in other folk on here's words "superb". When playing fast arpeggiations and 2 fisted chords, it really has that luxurious rich concert sound. In playing it on my GT, it makes the perfect marriage of software with hardware!

 

So much so, that I've been pondering the idea of getting a Numa X 73 for its portability and as a compact controller, now that the firmware upgrade has improved the action response even further, so have gone ahead and ordered one I saw on special.

I don't know how long it will be before they release the final version of the D, but like others, I installed it on my GT and forgot to keep the downloaded binary. So when the 73 arrives, I might ask one of you for the favor, if you still have it.🙏

 

One of the things which I have been trying to come to terms with, is being a pianist who plays occasionally to C1, have been revisiting my transpose techniques for transparently overcoming this without 88. As it was my challenge with my historical 73 and 76's.

 

In playing around,

I discovered an interesting bug on the Numa Piano, which I'd be curious to know if other folk can make it happen. I wouldn't classify it as needing a fix, because it goes beyond what is the normal operational limits.

With the Steinway B Tape program, do an octave transpose down to about -3 (-36) and see what you get when playing in the C1 to C3 area on the keyboard. (Oh, and perhaps keep the volume down a bit)

 

i won't describe what I found yet, but it startled the devil out me!

 

[b3plyr]

9 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

So much so, that I've been pondering the idea of getting a Numa X 73 for its portability and as a compact controller, now that the firmware upgrade has improved the action response even further, so have gone ahead and ordered one I saw on special.

 

This is similar to what I do. I have a Numa X GT in my studio, and use a Numa X 88 for gigs. A little bit more than what you plan but works well for me.

 

[AnotherScott]

On 5/5/2022 at 12:33 AM, funkyhammond said:

Between the master audio input level and the individual input gains there is a lot of gain available so I don't think it will be a problem getting enough volume from mics or low level instruments.

In the context of using the Numa's built-in mixer to combine your boards, I'm curious about the total gain at the output. This comment was followed with some discussion about how people often use a mixer (or other device) just to boost the gain of their board(s) on the way to the powered PA cabs that many of use use as our keyboard amps, since these seem to often want a hotter signal than the boards provide (maybe a -10 vs. +4 difference). But I didn't see anyone actually talk about whether they feel they do or do not need further gain when connecting a Numa X to a powered PA cab (or, more specifically, if they are less likely to need to boost the output compared to using other boards). Anyone have any experience to offer here?

 

On 3/24/2023 at 7:57 PM, DeltaJockey said:

It ticks a lot of boxes for me, particularly a nice kind of wooded weighted action with attack/release and aftertouch, as the only other weighted action I have with all this is my Kronos, where the release velocity is only 0-64.

I don't know about Kronos' release velocity function, but release velocity is something apart from attack/release controls. I am curious about the Numa X release velocity functionality, though. I didn't see it listed in the specs, and (surprisingly) there does not seem to be a MIDI implementation chart, but it sounds like it does have it, based on this post:

 

On 11/6/2023 at 12:30 PM, Kentkeys said:

The commenter {in the youtube video } also says they have monitored the velocity (on the 88-note version) and found that the lowest note-off velocity for white notes is 14 and for the black notes it is 11, no matter how gently you play the keys. (I’m not sure whether this would have much of an effect, in practice.)

From what I've read, many keyboards send either a fixed 0 or a fixed 64 for release velocity, so an actual calculated RV is a nice bonus on this board (even if there is that slight variation in the quietest black and white key values!)... I think it's one of the things I like so much about the SV1/Grandstage EPs implementation. But it hasn't come up much in this thread, I'd be curious to hear if people have noticed it, whether in the Numa's own sounds, or when used to control external sounds.

 

On 1/15/2024 at 5:31 AM, rtme said:

When you release one of the keys just a tiny bit (like 1 mm or so), the "note off" is already triggered for this key. Which means when you play a bit sloppy (or when your hand is spread out because you play notes in two octaves), and you release the key a tiny bit the sounds is gone. I could live with it as it could be related to bad technique, but a little bit more slack would be nice (other keybeds have a slack from 3 to even 5 mm).

A low release has pros and cons. The SV1 has a low release, and I think that it's one of the things that makes it clavs feels responsive and snappy. (I've experienced that on some non-hammer boards as well.) Which might have been a factor in this post:

On 6/8/2024 at 9:10 PM, StickMan393 said:

Dial up a guitar or clav patch and MY GOD does this keybed feel fantastic. What is it about the string pluck sounds that make this feel so expressive?

 

 

On 2/16/2024 at 3:52 AM, TomKittel said:

One thing I am missing badly is that velocity settings can’t be saved per program. Velocity can only be set globally. Hope they will fix that in a future update like Yamaha did with the YC series.

You must be psychic! Yes, Yamaha did add that to a YC update... though that update just came out recently!

 

On 3/9/2024 at 9:38 PM, Brad Kaenel said:

Another nice benefit of those blank areas on either side of the NX's controls -- my magnetic iPad folio really grabs on. It ain't goin' nowhere...

In some cases, that could save someone from needing to buy the optional music stand at $89.95!

 

On 6/8/2024 at 9:10 PM, StickMan393 said:

• I will never be able to perform hammond parts using this keybed. I can barely get a note to repeat with any rapidity. Some of this is my lousy piano technique, and some of it is just physical limitations of a very nice weighted hammer action keybed.

I wonder if you might find the organ repeats more attainable with the new update, which now allows retriggering a note without having to so fully raise the key between strikes, as demonstrated in this video:

 

 

I would say that I'm astonished that this 3-sensor piano didn't have this ability until now, since that ability is basically what people expect when buying a 3-sensor board. But I'm not quite astonished, because of my previous experience with some 3-sensor Fatars.

 

On 2/12/2024 at 11:47 PM, obxa said:

I think if I were doing this all again,  I'd buy a YC61 as a top board for organ/synth and the SL midi controller as a bottom board to control those YC piano sounds.  

...though the SL has the TP100, and the Numa X has the TP110 that seems to have been received much more favorably! And on similar topic:

 

On 9/6/2024 at 2:25 AM, CyberGene said:

On 9/5/2024 at 4:59 PM, AnotherScott said:

I wondered if you ever tried using MIDI to drive some of your CK61 sounds (pianos/EPs in particular) as external zones from your Numa X. I wonder how that experience would compare to the piano/EP experience you had with the YC73.

Haven’t tried it yet. 

Earlier in this thread, @counterpoint talked about enjoying driving his YC61 from his Numa X. So it sounds like a promising combination, though I'm still curious to how that experience compares to playing those same sounds in a YC73, both for the EPs (where I really enjoy playing them from the YC73) and the acoustic pianos (less so). In that sense, it kind of reminds me of playing the SV1. But I think I'll be able to make this YC/Numa comparison myself in the next week or so.

 

 

[DeltaJockey]

25 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

don't know about Kronos' release velocity function, but release velocity is something apart from attack/release controls. I am curious about the Numa X release velocity functionality, though. I didn't see it listed in the specs, and (surprisingly) there does not seem to be a MIDI implementation chart, but it sounds like it does have it, based on this post:

Sorry, I think I left a word out there, as it was supposed to be attack/release velocity, not AR in relation to envelope! I can confirm that the Numa X piano transmits 0 - 127 release velocity, as per MIDI message monitor in my DAW. I can also confirm that not only the Kronos, but my Korg Keystage also transmits only 0 - 64. I think it must be standard for Korg to only output a compressed range of release velocity values. I cans see their logic in designing it this way, but for many other sound source expressions, it is nice to have the full range. If I remember correctly, my Roland RD88 also sends the full 0 - 127 Release values. The Montage M8x GEX keybed doesn't support variable release velocity at all and transmits a fixed 64.

[DeltaJockey]

5 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I didn't see it listed in the specs, and (surprisingly) there does not seem to be a MIDI implementation chart, but it sounds like it does have it,

Numa_X_Piano_MIDI_implementation_chart.pdf

[DeltaJockey]

5 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

I can confirm that the Numa X piano transmits 0 - 127 release velocity, as per MIDI message monitor in my DAW.

Sorry, correction, (a bit sloppy with my previous description), looking closer it is correct that the minimum is 14. (approx 14-127) is what I got in practice without destroying the felts and sensor at the top end of a note hit!

My point is that it transmits functionally a full range compared to the other manufacturers I quoted.

[CyberGene]

@DeltaJockey the question is about Note-Off values (release velocity), not Note-On (strike velocity). The release velocity is helpful in achieving piano realism because it will affect the release portion of the sound (the tail) depending on whether you released quickly (following a staccato) or slowly for smoother transitions between notes in a phrase. These are subtle effects that may go unnoticed and utilized more in solo classical piano but are nevertheless part of a good piano emulation.