A new rig I am considering. Yamaha CP88 + Voce V5

[eric]

Hey forum,

 

I posted a few months ago on a quest for the optimal digital piano plus clonewheel experience. I am still using my tried and true Nord Stage 3 (sometimes NS2) rig and it works so well for my main band doing '80s new wave and classic rock.

 

I've picked up another gig that is a little more basic, with piano and organ at the forefront. I was thinking about pulling out an ancient Voce V5 + one of the extra Ventilators I have lying around and setting this up on a Yamaha CP88. Way back in the day, I used a similar rig that was a Roland RD600 + Voce into a Motion Sound KBR-M and really enjoyed it. I realize the V5 is a little bit dated, though it has a great ballsy rock organ sound and through the Vent is pretty sweet.

 

I'm a little conflicted as the newer Yamaha YC88 does the clonewheel thing, though it seems not all that great.

 

Do you have any feedback for me on the options between CP88 + V5 vs. YC88? I already own the V5 and Vent, so my incremental expense at this point is the CP88.

 

Thanks,

Eric

[sagetunes]

I LOVE the V5 thru the Vent--its killer.

[AnotherScott]

Do you have any feedback for me on the options between CP88 + V5 vs. YC88?

I've posted elsewhere about how the YC88 has some other advantages over the CP88 besides just the organ engine... but overall, personally, I prefer the CP88 ergonomics/interface (and it has some other piano sounds you may prefer as well). So yeah, I'd lean CP88 here.

[eric]

Thanks for the feedback so far! One thing I forgot to ask is about the MIDI capability of the CP88. Obviously it has MIDI and can drive a V5, though I am interested to learn if there is a way to easily and intuitively turn the MIDI on and off, whether via some dedicated switch/knob or via edits to programs. I will admit to not doing much research on this myself. On my old RD600 in the late '90s, there was a way to have one of the zone button/slider assigned to the external channel and it was really easy.

 

Thanks,

Eric

[Delaware Dave]

My Gemini module went down and is in for repair so the last month I've been exclusively using the V5+ with the Vent and more recently with the GSI BURN. The V5+ still cuts the mustard, the C/V isn't the greatest so I use C2 rather than C3. It is more flexible than the Gemini module's organ (Mojo in a rack) in that I'm able to use 4 sets of drawbars; Voce and my Code 61's 9 sliders for the B and Bb presets on the upper manual and the Voce Midi Drawbar unit and the Kurzweil PC3's 9 sliders for the B and Bb presets for the lower manual. Switching between them is done by rolling the mod wheel which transitions between B and Bb presets. Can't do that with the Gemini organ, so that has turned out to be pretty cool. With the right leslie emulator you will hardly miss a beat. It is very ballsy...

 

I've found the BURN to be less shrill than the Vent in the upper octave which is why I made the switch.

[AnotherScott]

Thanks for the feedback so far! One thing I forgot to ask is about the MIDI capability of the CP88. Obviously it has MIDI and can drive a V5, though I am interested to learn if there is a way to easily and intuitively turn the MIDI on and off, whether via some dedicated switch/knob or via edits to programs.

You can save 160 custom programs ("Live Sets"), each of which can include settings for up to 4 external MIDI zones. AFAIK, then, the only way to turn the triggering of external MIDI devices on and off is to switch between Live Sets that have that function either on or off.

[ElmerJFudd]

There"s a few organ modules on the market again.

 

Viscount Legend EXP

https://www.viscountinstruments.com/instrument/legend-exp/

 

Crumar Mojo Desktop

https://www.crumar.it/?a=showproduct&b=38

 

HX3 Drawbar Expander

https://shop.keyboardpartner.de/epages/13705466.mobile/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/13705466/Products/hx3-dbe

 

And of course iPad and Laptop software with a controller like the studio-logic SL Mixface or something,

https://www.studiologic-music.com/products/mixface/

[AnotherScott]

he already owns the V5, though

[ElmerJFudd]

I"d be looking to off load it. I mean if he"s happy with it that"s fine. Just that enough time has passed that there"s been some nice improvements in what it and software can do more authentically.

 

How the Voce compares to the YC"s organ is a good question.

[dazzjazz]

I"d say go for it, but playing organ on a weighted action is a bummer of the highest order. If you can do it, then more power to you!

[AnotherScott]

How the Voce compares to the YC"s organ is a good question.

I'd probably take "Voce+Vent" over YC organ.

[ElmerJFudd]

I"d say go for it, but playing organ on a weighted action is a bummer of the highest order. If you can do it, then more power to you!

 

Always the problem when going one board. If you are really covering piano and organ equally. Or if you do one or the other sometimes, helps make the decision. I"ve always wondered what keeps developers from doing a nice semi-weight synth action with waterfall keys. I opted for second hand VR-700 for just that reason, the downside on that model is the drawbars send sysex instead of CC, and it hasn"t an aux out to send an engine. It"s a 2010 model so, time has passed there as well. I haven"t felt the YC-61"s action though some have said it"s pretty good for piano. The Korg Vox, Scott has shared is a nice compromise.

[eric]

I"d say go for it, but playing organ on a weighted action is a bummer of the highest order. If you can do it, then more power to you!

 

Yeah, it is not optimal, though I have gotten myself used to playing with just a single keyboard and prefer the simplicity of it. I have done 88-note weighted actions for organ periodically and can do ok with it. It depends on how much of the gig requires organ and for this one, it's probably more like 75% piano and 25% organ, so having the 88 keys is nice. Yamaha doesn't have the heaviest action, so there's that as well.

 

As for whether I should offload the V5, I'll decide that after giving it another spin (literally and figuratively, LOL). I haven't played it in some time and recall the C/V being its weakest part. For straight up rock organ, it is very respectable for its age in particular.

 

Thanks,

Eric

[16251]

I"d say go for it, but playing organ on a weighted action is a bummer of the highest order. If you can do it, then more power to you!

 

Instead of going all out organ, I got a Mojo61 and using my DP for the lower manual is not bad, and it gives my left hand more of workout, which is all right. I agree, though, not for the right hand.

[Baldwin Funster]

The V5 is a pretty old piece. If you start relying on and using it daily for practice and gigs its likely to fail sooner or later and probably sooner. Then you will have to try to get it fixed and need another for a backup.

[Outkaster]

The CP88 and YC are both great.

[Morrissey]

The V5 is a pretty old piece. If you start relying on and using it daily for practice and gigs its likely to fail sooner or later and probably sooner. Then you will have to try to get it fixed and need another for a backup.

 

I'm gonna +1 this. I'm not a snob about the very newest clonewheel technology, so I'm not worried about your tone, but early 2000s isn't a technology era I associate with being "built like a tank" or that will "last forever." Eric, I know you like to put together rigs that will last for at least a few years, and it makes me nervous for you to build a new rig that includes a 20 yr old module as a core component.

[eric]

The V5 is a pretty old piece. If you start relying on and using it daily for practice and gigs its likely to fail sooner or later and probably sooner. Then you will have to try to get it fixed and need another for a backup.

 

I'm gonna +1 this. I'm not a snob about the very newest clonewheel technology, so I'm not worried about your tone, but early 2000s isn't a technology era I associate with being "built like a tank" or that will "last forever." Eric, I know you like to put together rigs that will last for at least a few years, and it makes me nervous for you to build a new rig that includes a 20 yr old module as a core component.

 

It's a good callout and I hadn't given it that much thought in terms of shelf life and reliability of aging tech such as a V5. I think they have been out of production since the '00s and not sure if anyone can work on them. I have a recollection from many years ago needing something like knobs or a spare drawbar and I was assisted directly by Dave Amels, the founder/owner of Voce. I don't know what he's up to these days. I'll keep this in mind if my potential rig makes traction. I'm probably going to get the gig started with old faithful NS3 and depending on how many shows hit the calendar, I'll consider investing in more of a different rig to meet the needs of the music.

 

Thanks for all the comments!

Eric

[Delaware Dave]

It's a good callout and I hadn't given it that much thought in terms of shelf life and reliability of aging tech such as a V5. I think they have been out of production since the '00s and not sure if anyone can work on them. I have a recollection from many years ago needing something like knobs or a spare drawbar and I was assisted directly by Dave Amels, the founder/owner of Voce. I don't know what he's up to these days. I'll keep this in mind if my potential rig makes traction. I'm probably going to get the gig started with old faithful NS3 and depending on how many shows hit the calendar, I'll consider investing in more of a different rig to meet the needs of the music. Thanks for all the comments! Eric

No more parts and service, this is the one risk. I have two V5+, one is a backup but have never had to use it. Since you mentioned in the OP that you have an NS3 and NS2(?) I wouldn't be too concerned about moving forward with your concept. Until my Gemini module is repaired I'm using mine heavily and it always works, but if it breaks (unless it is something simple) then it is throw away. One thought would be that you could also inexpensively purchase VB3m ($20) and put it on your phone.

[ChazKeys]

I have used the CP73 live with and iPad running VB3m - very solid and sounds good and the audio is handled inside the CP. But as an earlier poster said, playing organ from weighted keys isn't brilliant. Dave's suggestion makes sense if you own an iPhone or iPad. VB3m is very reliable and doesn't use a lot of CPU.

 

The Live Sets will allow you to zone the VB3m - Upper/Lower manuals - and also select programs. You may not even need drawbars if you create your favourite programs. The CP supports 2 Expression and 2 Switches so you can assign them to control VB3m Exp Pedal and Rotor Speed.

 

If you want drawbars you could look at GSi's other projects on the Crumar website where you can buy the D9U or the D9X. On the other hand the on screen controls are easy to use on an iPad.

 

This is what you would need:

 

iPhone/iPad - anything released in the last 4 years should be fine

Apple CCK

USB lead - to connect CCK to CP

 

No additional audio or MIDI cables needed

 

- optional

 

D9U or D9X which is a bit pricey but designed for VB3m - http://www.myrigshop.com/

4 port powered hub + USB lead

[Delaware Dave]

i know someone using vb3m on an old samsung android phone without issue, so you dont need an apple product to host it.

[obxa]

I'll be the outlier here- Since you said the gig is 25% organ...Why not just use the Nord(s) you already own and : 1. It's built in organ, 2. Nord organ with vent, 3. Nord organ drawbars controlling the VB3 app??? The external synth controller section on the Nords makes controlling modules and ipads really easy. I wouldn't rip solos on it, but weighted keys are are doable to do organ layers and simple parts (though not entirely fun....). I still have V5 (first revision) that I've pulled out on a few rehearsals and put through a Leslie 330 or Vent and sounded pretty good. Even though I have a spare power supply for it, I'd be scared if it was my sole organ.

[Doerfler]

I'll be the outlier here- Since you said the gig is 25% organ...Why not just use the Nord(s) you already own

 

GAS is difficult to contain

[allan_evett]

How the Voce compares to the YC"s organ is a good question.

I'd probably take "Voce+Vent" over YC organ.

 

For raw sound I would lean this way as well. I have the YC88, and feel that the main problem is in the rotary effect. The core organ tones sound solid, and the three 'Hammond' and FM choices are quite good. But that tremolo tends to warble and sounds 'off' to me - especially in a rock mix. Granted there is a fair amount of FX editing available, but I'd like a 3rd rotary option. The organ section doesn't quite have the gutsiness of an SK-Pro or Mojo Desktop. I have wished for years that Hammond would do a desktop successor to the XM-2 module, but...

 

The YC does have some FX engine advantages, along with cabinet modeling. Meanwhile the CP88 has some additional layering options in the piano/keys section that go well beyond the YC88. The core acoustic pianos on both instruments are stunning, and very expressive to play.

[vonnor]

You're gonna need a new pedalboard for that, Bro.

[Manolios]

I like the CP88 and will probably get one if I can sell the CP4. As usual, I'm a year to two years behind the curve of everyone else in getting it..

 

Wow, Dave, what happened? I thought you'd keep your CP4⦠funny thing, I'm looking for an used CP4 right now and trying to sell my 2019 CP88. It was a mistake, I had to admit it, I hate its piano soundsâ¦

[eric]

You're gonna need a new pedalboard for that, Bro.

 

You know it! I have a backlog of some other gear improvements that I might run by you when time allows