VTines for iOS

[AnotherScott]

Not really refundable, beware.

All iOS apps have exactly the same refundability (or lack thereof, depending on your perspective). It's all handled by Apple. Developers have no control over it.

[Reezekeys]

After a lot of fiddling around I can finally play this software. Forget any over-the-air midi (though I suspect most folks wouldn't do this anyway) - both bluetooth midi and a network connection via wifi resulted in terrible latency and dropped notes. I lack the CCK or any other way to connect my Roland A800 directly to the iPad, which would be the intended use for me. So, I have no way of knowing whether this is gonna work for me on a real gig (not that I have one right now!). Well, for $15 I guess I'll hang on to it - especially since according to the last few messages I read on this thread, it's not returnable anyway! That actually makes sense - I never heard of returnable software (but maybe things are different on the iOS platform?).

 

For anyone interested, I used Audio MIDI Setup to enable "Inter-device Audio and Midi Mode" - which enables the iPad (connected via a lightning cable) as both an audio source, and a midi source & destination. I also have to set up an "Aggregate Device" in Audio MIDI setup with the iPad as an audio input and my normal built-in audio as the output. THEN, in Plogue Bidule (my hosting app) I place the duplex audio device on the layout, route the audio directly from the iPad to built-in output, and midi input from my MOTU Fastlane directly to the output going to the iPad. Now I can play VTines from my A800 with very acceptable latency and no dropped notes. VTine's audio come out of my laptop though - the iPad's headphone output is disabled when in Inter-device Audio and Midi Mode.

 

So after all this sturm und drang - was it worth it? My regular rhodes is NI's Scarbee (not the newer "Classic EP88"). VTines is not bad, and I can see getting through a gig with it. The volume control is weird - I can get full scale audio with it set on 2! I also find it very bass heavy, but that's a characteristic of most rhodes plugins, I think. I roll off plenty of bass in Scarbee to get my sound to sit right when I'm doing a gig. The "amp" switch adds a slight room sound but the "drive" control, imo, is not useful; the distortion it adds is just plain too crunchy, more like digital clipping than "fuzz", even with just a touch of it added. I had the amp sim turned on and drive at zero and things sounded pretty good. The "bell" control should really be labeled "click" or "thunk" (how about "clunk"?!). That's all it adds, as far as what I'm hearing. While I'm at it, there might be something I'm not getting about the controls because "turning" these "knobs" is an extremely finicky operation. I'm pretty sure I've had easier experiences with these UI elements in other software on the iPad.

 

Sorry for the novel! In general I think VTines sounds pretty good, so now I have to see about how to connect my A800 directly to the iPad and lessen my gig shlep a little more. Over and out...

[drawback]

Adjusting the velocity curve makes a big difference, if you haven't tried that.

 

I repeat, I'm not getting any latency whatsoever. I'm going Kronos61 direct to Korg PlugKey to iPad 6. Buffer @64. I get an ever so slight latency to Module/Scarbee, but I feel any latency is about as negligible as the latency from my keys to the hammers on my acoustic piano.

 

Sound-wise it's always a crap-shoot. If we depend on factory presets to judge, it's easy to dismiss what's possible. I like the iOS versions of VTines and Module/Scarbee. NeoSoul Keys Studio 2 is off the table for a variety of reasons not worth going into on this thread.

[Reezekeys]

Just spent some time a/b-ing with the Scarbee I use (in Kontakt Player in MacOS). Perhaps it's unfair to compare these directly, but since I'm looking at being able to replace the laptop for some gigs, I wanted to see how close I could get to the experience I'm used to. I'm going to reserve final judgment until I've spent more time experimenting & tweaking things, but I notice much less timbral change in the VTines as hit the keys harder, compared to Scarbee. I guess that would be the "bark" â Scarbee has much more and it just feels more satisfying when I play hard. I'm not sure how much this is tied to having a specific velocity curve set - simply comparing the tone of notes at the full vel=127 tells the story.

 

I'm by no means giving up on this, and all in all I'm impressed with what an iPad can pull off these days. I have no doubt that somewhere down the road, if there are still gigs to be had , I'll be using an iPad or something similar.

 

Adjusting the velocity curve makes a big difference, if you haven't tried that.

Rod, you're speaking more in general terms right? There doesn't appear to be such an adjustment in the VTines software - unless it's right in front of my face and I've missed it!

[drawback]

Rob, tap the gear icon and then MIDI Channels. The Velocity Mapper curve is at the bottom of that menu. Adjust the curve by sliding your finger over it. The tone actually changes quite dramatically the deeper you design the curve. I think this is the first thing that should be done before performing any other tweaks. The whole perspective changes.

[ChazKeys]

 

For anyone interested, I used Audio MIDI Setup to enable "Inter-device Audio and Midi Mode" - which enables the iPad (connected via a lightning cable) as both an audio source, and a midi source & destination. I also have to set up an "Aggregate Device" in Audio MIDI setup with the iPad as an audio input and my normal built-in audio as the output. THEN, in Plogue Bidule (my hosting app) I place the duplex audio device on the layout, route the audio directly from the iPad to built-in output, and midi input from my MOTU Fastlane directly to the output going to the iPad. Now I can play VTines from my A800 with very acceptable latency and no dropped notes. VTine's audio come out of my laptop though - the iPad's headphone output is disabled when in Inter-device Audio and Midi Mode.

 

Off topic but thanks for sharing this - I have never noticed iPad appearing as a device in Audio Midi setup. I normally use iConnectMIDI2 when I want to record iPad into DAW but this is a handy alternative. The Scarbee add on in Korg module is hard to beat but I will probably get VTInes in the next few weeks to add to my collection of iPad Rhodes apps! I hope they release VReeds as I still haven't found a satisfactory Wurly on iPad.

[jejefunkyman]

VTines has more a raw tone than Scarbee, which sounds more bright, clear and clean. And yes, VTines has more bass than Scarbee, I"m also turning it down almost completely in order to have the right level for me. But the good thing with VTines is that it is possible to tweak it to get different tones, which is not possible with Scarbee on iOS where you basically just can change the bass and treble EQ level (though you can add 2 effects on top of the tremolo and EQ). I guess it takes more effort with VTines to get the sound that one is having in mind. I need to spend more time with it to figure it out, and also decide for myself for which type of music it will be better to use it than Scarbee.

[Reezekeys]

Rob, tap the gear icon and then MIDI Channels. The Velocity Mapper curve is at the bottom of that menu. Adjust the curve by sliding your finger over it. The tone actually changes quite dramatically the deeper you design the curve. I think this is the first thing that should be done before performing any other tweaks. The whole perspective changes.

 

Got it, thanks. So, putting the velocity remapper in the menu for setting the midi channel... well I guess it had to go somewhere!

 

I'll fire this puppy up again a little later today and see what I can come up with. Thanks for pointing me right!

[Reezekeys]

VTines has more a raw tone than Scarbee, which sounds more bright, clear and clean. And yes, VTines has more bass than Scarbee, I"m also turning it down almost completely in order to have the right level for me. But the good thing with VTines is that it is possible to tweak it to get different tones, which is not possible with Scarbee on iOS where you basically just can change the bass and treble EQ level (though you can add 2 effects on top of the tremolo and EQ). I guess it takes more effort with VTines to get the sound that one is having in mind. I need to spend more time with it to figure it out, and also decide for myself for which type of music it will be better to use it than Scarbee.

 

I'll definitely be spending more time with it, but at the moment my main issue is not with the tone, it's the dynamic range I'm getting. There seems to be interaction between the volume control and the "dynamics" control on the prefs page, so that the volume control may have some additional effect on the dynamic range. And again, I am not comparing this to Scarbee on iOS, I'm comparing to the "regular" Scarbee that plays in Kontakt, so maybe I'm asking too much. I don't want to be unfair to the devs because I can appreciate the time and energy spent to get this kind of software happening. $15 is a very fair price to pay.

[Reezekeys]

Just a quick aside that I screwed up getting bluetooth midi happening before - got it confused with "Midi Network" in the Audio MIDI Setup app. It's working now, no dropped notes, slightly more latency than I'm used to, but workable.

[Jazz+]

Apple report a problem just refunded me. I deleted the app. Yay

[Fleer]

Maybe the best tines comparison would be checking out GospelMusicians.

[brenner13]

It is defiantly different than the other iOS offerings (I have them ALL). VTines requires some real heft to get the maximum velocity out of it with default settings. I personally LIKE that it has such dynamic range. I"m a heavy handed player and many of the others simply hit maximum way to easy for my touch.

 

Default settings on VTines has the release artifact just a tad too prevalent at 50% and can make the playability seem a bit sluggish. As authentic as the default setting might be, I like it better around 33%. My tastes want the bell amount is considerably lower, around 13%. Dynamics default of 75% requires a heavy hand, even more than mine, so still experimenting with that...trying 60% for a bit. These parameters are found under the outlined 'PREFS' button under the Acoustic Samples logo, above the amp switch, middle right of the screen.

 

Actually all of the other Rhodes apps have required hefty tweaks to get them to my liking. So happy the parameters are there for tweakers like me.

[BenWaB3]

Ironically every time I've tried a new app (Korg Module Pro, House Mark I, VTines) I've turned around and been able to tweek NeoSoul Keys to get it sounding more like what I want. I still think VTines has the potential to become top dog but until it adds the effects package it can't fairly compete with NSK. Also listening to the video originally put out by AcousticSamples the amplification & mic placement capability of the Windows/Mac version can make a big difference. The ability to control the voicing would probably be a huge plus too. Personally I would be willing to spend a higher price to get the VTines, VReeds and Clavi D9 all in one package with the effects, etc included. Until that point though the advantage stays with NSK. If AS could come out with the complete package that would be a very interesting shoot out to see those two compared.

[AnotherScott]

Ironically every time I've tried a new app (Korg Module Pro, House Mark I, VTines) I've turned around and been able to tweek NeoSoul Keys to get it sounding more like what I want. I still think VTines has the potential to become top dog but until it adds the effects package it can't fairly compete with NSK.

OTOH, if you can get close to the sound you want with a leaner app, you might think the trade-off is worth it, in terms of performance/stability, i.e. if you're running your Rhodes program simultaneously with B-3X or whatever other apps you might also want loaded.

[drawback]

OTOH, if you can get close to the sound you want with a leaner app, you might think the trade-off is worth it, in terms of performance/stability, i.e. if you're running your Rhodes program simultaneously with B-3X or whatever other apps you might also want loaded.

 

I was getting at this in my earlier post. I've had way better luck loadiing all my apps since dropping NSKS2. I was able to set up some good Rhodes but there's a lot of under the hood work possible (it's like programming a synth) which makes the app hefty. I can't compromise on Ravenscroft and B-3X but I can get a very good Rhodes out of a leaner app such as VTines without the crashes. NSKS2 is the piece that throws my CPU over the edge. Scarbee is good out of the box, but you have to load Korg Module and get through that first, and I wonder if that's at the core of the app's latency. VTines makes a lot more sense, and for that matter the original NeoSoul Studio, with its smaller footprint, has similar advantage over it's bloated second version.

[BenWaB3]

OTOH, if you can get close to the sound you want with a leaner app, you might think the trade-off is worth it, in terms of performance/stability, i.e. if you're running your Rhodes program simultaneously with B-3X or whatever other apps you might also want loaded.

 

I was getting at this in my earlier post. I've had way better luck loadiing all my apps since dropping NSKS2. I was able to set up some good Rhodes but there's a lot of under the hood work possible (it's like programming a synth) which makes the app hefty. I can't compromise on Ravenscroft and B-3X but I can get a very good Rhodes out of a leaner app such as VTines without the crashes. NSKS2 is the piece that throws my CPU over the edge. Scarbee is good out of the box, but you have to load Korg Module and get through that first, and I wonder if that's at the core of the app's latency. VTines makes a lot more sense, and for that matter the original NeoSoul Studio, with its smaller footprint, has similar advantage over it's bloated second version.[/quot

 

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These are valid points. I haven't had any problems with NSK crashing everything else but at this point I'm only running that plus BX-3 & midimitr. I like the concept of having everything in a "suite" as far as the non Hammond electro-mechanical sounds go. I never use more than one electric keyboard sound per song so I can run all the NSK voices on MIDI channel 2. If not then I'd have to go in, put each sound on its own channel, troubleshoot all my setup combinations to see if there was already an instrument on that channel and be running 5 programs at once, 6 if I was in a situation where Ravenscroft was needed. As said before I'd love to see AcousticSamples have all the Fender/Wurly/Hohner sounds in one suite type of package. With their lower cpu footprint it would be tremendous.

[Dr Mike Metlay]

Another upvote for AUM. It can be incredibly powerful and complex if you need it to, or you can just use it to put some effects on an instrument app and be done. Well worth the money.

[cphollis]

Bought it last night. Very pleased with the sound and feel. Dynamics are a bit off but adjustable. The native reverb/drive/vibrato is quite nice. Definitely a nice instrument to add to the collection.

[dickiefunk]

I'm interested in trying this app out. I really like the realistic raw sound of the original desktop version and if this sounds identical then it could potentially be the best Rhodes on iOS. I've used the Scarbee in the Korg Module and thought it was pretty good but not necessarily a step up from the already excellent Rhodes on my YC61. I'm hoping to get both VTines and the Neo Soul Keys Studio to compare.

 

I'm seriously hoping that more AcousticSamples libraries will be ported to iOS as their B5v3 library is the most authentic/realistic Hammond library I've used (and I've extensively compared it to B3X, Blue3 and VB3mk2)!

[mobi]

their B5v3 library is the most authentic/realistic Hammond library I've used (and I've extensively compared it to B3X, Blue3 and VB3mk2)!

 

 

And also the more CPU intensive of all

[dickiefunk]

Yes true. It is pretty cpu intensive but the sound makes it justifiable for me. I tend to use B5v3 in more sparse projects where the Hammond is quite prominent. If I need low cpu I use Blue3 which still sounds very good.

My only niggle with B5 is the the black key preset system. Whilst I understand AcousticSamples were trying to simulate how this mechanically happens on a real Hammond I think this defeats the point of vsts making things easier and quicker (mostly). IK"s B3X has the quickest and most intuitive black key preset system and Blue3 is also very easy to use. On B5v3 it is very convoluted and time consuming.

[tnelson]

Back to VTines-Live for iOS, one of the features it lacks, compared to the full VTines for Mac and Windows, is a keyboard velocity map that can be adjusted in a detailed way.  Yes, it has a Velocity Remapper under MIDI Channels, but this only allows roughly pulling a convex or concave shape, not the S-shape that works for me with full VTines. 

 

Does anyone know of an iOS keyboard MIDI velocity-mapping insert that can be used in AUM in front of AUv3 instruments like VTines-Live?  I'm seeking a channel-specific remapping insert, because I am also playing channels that do not require me to remap MIDI velocity coming from my controller.  Thanks for any suggestions!

[ElmerJFudd]

31 minutes ago, tnelson said:

Back to VTines-Live for iOS, one of the features it lacks, compared to the full VTines for Mac and Windows, is a keyboard velocity map that can be adjusted in a detailed way.  Yes, it has a Velocity Remapper under MIDI Channels, but this only allows roughly pulling a convex or concave shape, not the S-shape that works for me with full VTines. 

 

Does anyone know of an iOS keyboard MIDI velocity-mapping insert that can be used in AUM in front of AUv3 instruments like VTines-Live?  I'm seeking a channel-specific remapping insert, because I am also playing channels that do not require me to remap MIDI velocity coming from my controller.  Thanks for any suggestions!

There is one in Logic Pro for Mac. I wonder if they included it with Logic Or for iPad OS. 

[drawback]

I’ve adjusted the velocity curve in Channels along with dynamics in Prefs pretty much to my liking (I like a pretty wide range). Although VTines Live doesn’t have as much bark as I’d like, I think it’s more alive than Scarbee in Module Pro. I’ve been able to get a good Auto Pan setting using AUM tremolo range as well. 

[tnelson]

56 minutes ago, drawback said:

I’ve adjusted the velocity curve in Channels along with dynamics in Prefs pretty much to my liking (I like a pretty wide range). Although VTines Live doesn’t have as much bark as I’d like, I think it’s more alive than Scarbee in Module Pro. I’ve been able to get a good Auto Pan setting using AUM tremolo range as well. 

I've optimized the iOS version as much as I can, too, but it's so frustrating that I can't dial it in the way I can the full version of VTines on my laptop.  I'd be happy if they (Acoustic Samples) just implemented a more capable velocity map function and provided an indication as to which preset is selected in the iOS version! 

[drawback]

And allow for setting your own sound as default, have an on-off switch for vib/trem with a max setting… I’ve emailed support. Not gonna happen. Makes one wonder why develop an app unless they plan to improve and update it. Still the best of the lot IMO. 

[Reezekeys]

4 hours ago, tnelson said:

Does anyone know of an iOS keyboard MIDI velocity-mapping insert that can be used in AUM in front of AUv3 instruments like VTines-Live?

 

Midiflow. Not an insert, rather it's a separate app but you can easily route the midi to any individual channel in AUM. The two middle handles can be freely moved side-to-side as well as up & down, so it's pretty flexible (the "top" and "bottom" handles are moveable up & down only, which makes sense). I have two Midiflow routings, one for my acoustic piano and the other for my Rhodes, so I can have individual velocity remap curves for each.

 

The only "bug" is that that this app may be abandoned! The support forum's most recent messages are a few years old, and after registerering there I was unable to post - got an error message. No response from the dev when I tried asking for help. Despite that, it's been rock-solid (so far), with one bug I saw on an earlier iPad not appearing on my newer 9G. I use Midiflow to switch presets on my iPad, rather than loading different AUM scenes - it's instantaneous, and automatically closes notes if you switch Midiflow presets with a held note or notes.

 

[tnelson]

47 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Midiflow. Not an insert, rather it's a separate app but you can easily route the midi to any individual channel in AUM.....

Thanks!  Midiflow looks like what I'm seeking, and it runs on both iPhone and iPad.  Yes, its last update was 2 years ago, but the same is true of the VTines-Live app.

I'll give it a try!  Does it add any latency that you notice playing live?

[Reezekeys]

18 minutes ago, tnelson said:

Does it add any latency that you notice playing live?

 

Nope - nothing I notice anyway.

 

I did all the IAPs too. This combined with AUM's midi routing features is serious midiot stuff! I'm very happy with what I can get done on my i-devices right now.