choosing a pair of speakers for clonewheel

[konaboy]

Hi,

 

playing a clonewheel (currently yc) mostly through headphones. it is convenient, but I miss the thunk of the low notes coming out of a loudspeaker beside the organ.

 

got me thinking about picking up some kind of amplification system, home use only.

 

a pair of active pa speakers is a popular choice. high power large speakers are not necessary for this application. Two 10" woofers should be adequate and reluctant to go larger due to lack of space in my studio.

 

considering something like the behringer eurolive b110d, at about usd300 for the pair, they get good reviews at the price. I won't be pushing them hard, they'll just be idling.

 

anybody got any opinions or advice?

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/B110D--behringer-eurolive-b110d-300w-10-inch-powered-speaker

[AnotherScott]

If I were going to buy something just for clonewheel, it would be a Spacestation. You can supplement it with something with more bottom if need be, but just for home use, I think that's unlikely to be necessary.

[konaboy]

thanks for the suggestion, really interesting choice, I've taken a look at them before. $1200 vs $300 though, i'm not sure I can justify that for this tiny room!

[AnotherScott]

Are you in the U.S.? They're $879 (Sweetwater, I think they're the only dealer that carries it). They also pop up used, which should save you at least a couple of hundred dollars.

 

In the lower budget range, I may get some flack for this, but Behrinrger isn't bad, at least the 2 series, which I've used. For anything except acoustic piano, they're really not bad at all, and I found them to be reliable. I'd be more hesitant about the 1 series, here's a review:

-- but that's just one guy. I haven't heard anything in that series myself.

[cphollis]

FWIW I also enjoy playing my clonewheel through a SpaceStation -- more than through a pair of self-powered PA speakers. Any stereo leslie sim should sound gorgeous through it. You'll get some bass out of it, but more than a few of us ended up adding an inexpensive sub to help out. Acoustic pianos are not its strong suit.

[CEB]

I had a pair of Behringer B212D s. They sound like ass. Fine for vocal but they are really heavy around 125hz. There ain"t nothing good there and you can"t EQ it out. 10s or 15s maybe okay. It all depends on how the cabinet is voiced. I use EV ZXA1s. They worked great as monitors as wedges. But I went direct to FOH.

 

You just. have to hear the cab or talk to people who use the cab. Have a good return policy.

[AnotherScott]

I had a pair of Behringer B212D s. They sound like ass. Fine for vocal but they are really heavy around 125hz. There ain"t nothing good there and you can"t EQ it out. 10s or 15s maybe okay. It all depends on how the cabinet is voiced. I use EV ZXA1s.

The ZXa1 sure sounds a whole lot better than the Behingers I've used. But it's all relative. At its price, I'm not sure anything is better. At least based on my experience with the B212A.

 

Woody, if you do end up with a pair of anything, for clonewheel, try placing the speakers right next to each other, aimed 45 degrees off center in opposite directions.

[CEB]

I still rehearse with the EVs. They are great. But live it"s all IEMs now. For a budget speaker I"ve like the Altos but I can"t testify to their durability or use for keys. Vocals and key are totally different needs.

 

The Behringer were rugged. Until one caught on fire. I don"t fault the speaker. They were too cheap to justify a roadcase and they had a really hard life. Probably gave me 10 good years of service.

[zxcvbnm098]

If just for home use, have you considered a pair of powered studio monitors?

[jazzpiano88]

For only home use organ? Used Leslie. Heaven.

[Mighty Motif Max]

People like the Alto TS310/312 speakers on the low end, but that hits about $500 for a pair. You'd be better off with some low-end EV's, or something like the Yamaha DBR series.

 

 

As far as Behringers go, their little B205D monitors aren't terrible, but obviously have very little low end. I wouldn't go below the 200 series. I haven't cared for their Eurolive speakers much either - they can manage to be muddy and harsh at the same time. We used some large Behringer speakers at my church for a number of years and they really lacked clarity. The way I see it, if I'm going to have speakers to listen to my gear through, I want to actually enjoy what I hear and I don't want the speakers to lessen the quality much.

 

The new Samson RS110A speakers might not be bad, or at least are probably a little better than the Behringers. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RS110A--samson-rs110a-300w-10-inch-powered-speaker

 

As someone mentioned above, have you thought about studio monitors? I've been really happy with my JBL LSR305P MKII speakers I got in November. You could go up larger if you wanted but they are sufficient as they are IMO for low end. Heck, my brother has a set for his electronic drums and they sound great.

[ShadowMan]

I'm still using a pair of older Alto TS110A's that I picked up years ago. They still sound pretty good.

 

You might be able to find a couple of them pretty cheap.

[HSS]

I have a pair of Behringer 208d's which are compact and ~15 lbs each. Unlike the 205d, which was previously mentioned, the 208d is two-way bi-amped with a similar max spl of 113db but with more bottom end. I use the 208d's in my home studio and IMO they sound OK for keys as long as you don't push 'em too hard. They also work for a low volume single/ duo gig or rehearsal but I would never use 'em with a loud band.

 

I just noticed that Sweetwater has dropped the price on the 208d's to $149 each. I paid $250 for my pair of 208d's last summer factory refurbished from MusicTribe on Ebay.

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/B208D--behringer-eurolive-b208d-200w-8-inch-powered-speaker

[konaboy]

Thanks all for the suggestions, will investigate them. Alto especially interesting since affordable and readily available and maybe a better brand than Behr.,

 

Sorry for the confusion about pricing of spacestation. Thing is, here in europe the only model available is the XL, which is $1200 and way overkill for a small room. It's a shame the smaller unit is not available, I could stretch to that budget.

 

Yes. I had in mind to experiment with the placement of the two cabs, to get more out of the rotary sim.

 

Accurate linear frequency response perhaps not important either for this application, as the different model leslie's were far from that.

[lsj]

I have quite a few speakers ranging from Bose to Mackie. I was looking for a small speaker for when I go out of town a have time to study one of my synths. I bought the behringer 208D. it completely blew me away(and some of my musician friends). the volume, sound and quality for an 8" speaker totally surprised all of us. on top of it, you can't beat the price.

[AnotherScott]

I have a pair of Behringer 208d's which are compact and ~15 lbs each. Unlike the 205d, which was previously mentioned, the 208d is two-way bi-amped with a similar max spl of 113db but with more bottom end. I use the 208d's in my home studio and IMO they sound OK for keys as long as you don't push 'em too hard. They would work for a low volume single/ duo gig or rehearsal but I would never use 'em with a loud band.

I agree, the B208D is a really nice little unit, far better sonically than the Mackie SRM150 that the Behringer B205D is based on (though I've only heard the Mackie, and not the Behinger version). But you would expect any reasonably designd 8" 2-way system to sound better than a single 5" "full range" speaker. Those little 5" ones have their place, they have other functionalities, and work fine for their primary use as near-field vocal monitors. But for keys? I would not be at all happy with them. But while the B208D is far better (and quite usable), don't expect it to sound like an EV ZXa1, either in accuracy (specifically for piano), nor in bass response. The Behringers with larger woofers can address the bass response. My old B212A sounded much like the B208D, except for having a lot more bass and being able to play louder.

 

Organ through the 5" speakers probably wouldn't suffer as much as some other things do, because organs have so little high frequency response that you wouldn't so much miss the extended HF response of a tweeter, and organs are very forgiving of playback systems in general. But bass would be expected to be weak, and really , unless you *need* the size/features/form factor of those 5" units, why not spend about the same to get the better sounding (and fuller bottomed) B208D? And just because it's being bought for organ doesn't mean you might not find reason to use it for other sounds in the future.

 

Accurate linear frequency response perhaps not important either for this application, as the different model leslie's were far from that.

I'd agree that organ does not demand the most accurate frequency response. Considering how the tonal character of actual tonewheel organs could vary from one model to another, I'd be hard-pressed to even be able to tell whether one speaker was more faithfully reproducing its intended clonewheel sound than another. BUT... a good tonewheel emulation *includes* the modeling of the frequency response of a particular Leslie (or often, a number of Leslies, from which the user can choose). So I wouldn't use that variation as the rationale. I mean, a clonewheel with a modeled Leslie, played through another Leslie (even if only one had the rotors engaged and the other was in "stop" mode facing front), would probably sound awful. ;-)

[dazzjazz]

If you have space, then get yourself a valve Leslie. If not, try the Yamaha DXR10 mk2. Jim Alfredson is right - they"re not as harsh as QSC for example. I have a pair and I stack 'EM and it"s a nice big sound with plenty of everything.

[konaboy]

any leslie, let alone a valve one, is scarce and expensive over here in europe. spece a bit tight too.

thanks for the yamaha recommendation, although 2200W combined power vastly overkill for my use case, playing in a small bedroom

[konaboy]

I have a pair and I stack 'EM and it"s a nice big sound with plenty of everything.

 

btw, what's with this stacking thing? is that a good way to combine a pair of speakers for a nice rotary effect?

[Outkaster]

Get a leslie

[Lou_NC]

For home use, I've been using a pair of older JBL Control 1 monitor speakers, mounted on the wall at ear level (my XK-3/XLK-3 setup is placed against a wall), along with a 8" JBL powered subwoofer that I bought off Craigslist. I kick pedals and at moderate (home studio) volume levels, this setup is really great! Plenty of bass. I had to adjust the percussion and keyclick volumes on the Hammond to match the high-fidelity speakers, but now that it's been tweaked down a bit, it all sounds fantastic.

 

I would definitely consider a Spacestation for small venue gigging, but I actually tried the predecessor speaker of the current Spacestation (SFX MK2), and it definitely needed a subwoofer to satisfy me. Again, I play pedals, and the 16' bass pedal sound needs some "oomph" to satisfy me, I find even a small sub works well for that.

 

I've purchased two powered subs used, from folks who were upgrading or simply selling off their "home theater" setups, to replace them with sound bars. I find the home-theater subs provide sufficient low-end and enough volume for my home studio needs, and they are quite inexpensive when purchased used (in the neighborhood of $100-$150 USD).

 

Lou

[HSS]

If you have space, then get yourself a valve Leslie. If not, try the Yamaha DXR10 mk2. Jim Alfredson is right - they"re not as harsh as QSC for example. I have a pair and I stack 'EM and it"s a nice big sound with plenty of everything.

I agree about the DXR10 mk2's. They're excellent but they're pretty expensive (~$700 each). The OP might also want to consider picking up a pair of Yamaha DBR10's which IMO are tonally similar to the DXR10, about half the price, lighter (~23lbs), and with less power (129db vs.132db max spl). I have a DBR10 and really like it.

[musicbysterling]

I have a pair of the original JBL LSR12P"s that I really, really love hearing my Nord Electro 5 and Blue3 with.

[stoken6]

If just for home use, have you considered a pair of powered studio monitors?

+1 on this. JBL 305s get some love round here.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[konaboy]

thanks for the suggestion of studio monitors, the reason I'm prefering PA cabs is because I can just chuck them on the floor next to or under the organ, and they are rugged, whereas studio monitors, I'll need to rig up some stands, or wall mounts, and monitors generally much smaller speakers. so not getting the same low end whoomph.

cheers

[stoken6]

You're in the UK Woody? Recommendation for Laney CXP10. Not super-loud, low-tech and a bit heavy compared to today's plastic cabs, but nice clean neutral sound. I've owned a pair (one powered and one passive) for some 30 years, and never let me down.

 

You'll obviously want a pair of actives if you want stereo sound.

 

There's also a lower-powered CXP8, but I haven't heard those. (The Laney range were reviewed a while ago, and the 15ins came out top, and the 10s second as they were less powerful. Both beat the 12s, so you can't assume the range will sound good).

 

Cheers, Mike.

[konaboy]

well, in europe but they are stocked by the mighty Thomm.

they remind me of my old wharfedale monitor boxes, they were really good, shame I let them go. this must have been around 2001.

 

yeah, the wooden cabs are really nice if you don't have to lug them around!

 

https://pasteboard.co/JKPbLUw.png

https://pasteboard.co/JKPcEPU.png

[dazzjazz]

 

btw, what's with this stacking thing? is that a good way to combine a pair of speakers for a nice rotary effect?

 

Yes, two powered speakers stacked like guitar cabinets works well. Puts the horn near your ear like a Leslie. Although the stereo imaging is not exactly like a Leslie, it"s very, very good indeed.

[zxcvbnm098]

well, in europe but they are stocked by the mighty Thomm.

they remind me of my old wharfedale monitor boxes, they were really good, shame I let them go. this must have been around 2001.

 

yeah, the wooden cabs are really nice if you don't have to lug them around!

 

https://pasteboard.co/JKPbLUw.png

https://pasteboard.co/JKPcEPU.png

 

It's funny, I always assumed you were in Hawaii based on your name...Kona is the district on the west side of the island of Hawaii. Ha! Apparently not!

[TJ Cornish]

If you have space, then get yourself a valve Leslie. If not, try the Yamaha DXR10 mk2. Jim Alfredson is right - they"re not as harsh as QSC for example. I have a pair and I stack 'EM and it"s a nice big sound with plenty of everything.

I agree about the DXR10 mk2's. They're excellent but they're pretty expensive (~$700 each). The OP might also want to consider picking up a pair of Yamaha DBR10's which IMO are tonally similar to the DXR10, about half the price, lighter (~23lbs), and with less power (129db vs.132db max spl). I have a DBR10 and really like it.

I do some sound reinforcement work and have some larger systems, but for small speakers, I agree that the DXR10 is fantastic. Great sound quality, great form factor. Wattage is meaningless; don't worry about "2200 watts"; that's what the volume control is for.