Behringer and cloning

[RABid]

I don't understand some of the decisions. A MiniMoog clone with no patch memory puts it far behind Roland's version. Many offer CV interface, but they are not the popular Eurorack 1v/oct spec so that makes them hard to use. The issue is when to use a +5v to -5v range and a 0v to 10v range. They do it true to some keyboards of the 70's but not to modern Eurorack standards. I could go on but you get the point. Not that Roland is perfect with their series. I hate the interface on the little Roland modules. I really wish they had 1/4 inch outputs and a non-USB power supply. But, I have most of the Roland units. The only Behringer I have is the non-clone mini synth they put out, the Neutron.

[jazzpiano88]

I keep wondering how much longer it will be until this topic joins politics and religion in the list of verboten topics...

You mean bringing up how Google and Samsung ripped off the invention of the smartphone from Apple?

From Apple?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone

Sorry meant the iPhone

[jazzpiano88]

Do they sound as good?

I hate it when fidelity does backwards from back in the day.

[Doerfler]

I don't understand some of the decisions. A MiniMoog clone with no patch memory puts it far behind Roland's version.

 

Agreed, except that you don't need hand the size of an average kindergarten student to turn the knobs. Were Roland's unit larger, I would own one myself.

[RABid]

I don't understand some of the decisions. A MiniMoog clone with no patch memory puts it far behind Roland's version.

 

Agreed, except that you don't need hand the size of an average kindergarten student to turn the knobs. Were Roland's unit larger, I would own one myself.

 

That's true. Only today I noticed that on some Roland videos they connect them to a full size controller and use the knobs and sliders on the controller to edit rather than the little knobs on the unit.

[David Emm]

What I'd like next from Behringer: a year with two original synths as good as the DeepMind and no drama. Do you think there's any CHANCE of it??

[Muad’Dib]

If a Minimoog didn"t cost $3,000.00 or more, i would buy one.

[GRollins]

It took a while, but I got used to the knob size on my Model Ds. That's not to say that I wouldn't appreciate it if they were larger. Given that the unit is 70HP (I'm quoting that from memory, may not have it right), I would think that it would be nice if the D was a full 84HP, at which point they would have room for bigger knobs. Or, to save a smidgen of space on the top and bottom, just make the D a regular 19" rack unit the way they're doing with the 2600. You know, space things out a little.

 

Still, I'm glad to have them. They're cheap and fun.

 

Grey

[Robert Smedberg]

I spent a fair amount of time dedicated to read lawsuits, infringments etc.

Trying to look objectivly on this matter I came to a conclusion.

For me the worst action is where the end user is affected because we usually don"t have the funds fighting against large companies.

If there is a lawsuit between companies I let their own lawyers do the work.

Yamaha musical instruments have been fined 2006 for pricefixing. In 2020 they again lost a case but being a 'snitch' they did not get fined.

Roland and Korg was instead fined 6.9 million USD in 2020 for that matter.

In 2019 Casio and Fender were fined for same issue.

This year Inmusic (Akai pro etc) filed lawsuit against Roland for patent infringments.

Guitar makers like Gibson seem to find lawsuits yearly against various companies.

Cloning have always been in music and some seem to be more ok than others.

Some say ' yes, but this is still being sold by the company that developed it'

See Universal Audio and LA-2A for reference.

https://www.uaudio.com/hardware/la-2a.html

 

https://www.thomann.de/se/warm_audio_wa_2a.htm?glp=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAt9z-BRBCEiwA_bWv-EqojBYBBMdFMVEG1nmuQNESLfA47pGXKeHdAF9XvKXgW74sWS-Q8RoC-YoQAvD_BwE

 

https://m.djservice.se/artikel/black-lion-audio-bluey?gclid=CjwKCAiAt9z-BRBCEiwA_bWv-AKToLzZPCI5kjEnT2FJu3V4_n8BkiMsKJxehtJzXx5hmy2-btbDphoCobYQAvD_BwE

[Baldwin Funster]

Collectors now celebrate 1970s japanese clones of fender and gibson guitars. The so called lawsuit models. Love Rock, tokai ect..

But when behringer did it the reaction is different. Im not seeing a real difference between the situations.

[GRollins]

Certain segments of society have tuned into sources of information that peddle hate. They live it, breathe it, bathe in it. Hate becomes a way of life. Behringer gives them another target for their hatred.

 

Grey

[uhoh7]

Most reasonable Behringer thread I've seen yet. I better push it over the edge.

 

I would list all the genuinely cool and affordable clones or semi-clones (DM12) or new analog (Neutron) which we could not consider but for the obsessions of that nutcase Uli, except it would take a really long time.

 

There is no other maker who has made a more positive impact for "regular synth customers" since the DM12 was released.

 

I only have the DM12 and RD-8.... and a BCR2k which Behringer has stupidly abandoned, but I have one so it's OK.

 

I have to hold my self back on....Model D, Neutron, 2600 and the UBxa. OMG now I'm thinking about them.

 

And my beloved Osmose is seriously locked down. I'm sure Uli has sacrificed a few grunts to keep his products coming. The virus is probably scared of him personally. Whatever he has got it's double-edged, LOL.

 

I was listening to those wonderful recent demos of the Jupiter 8.......

 

[video:youtube]

 

Luckily my access virus TI can fool me enough to save 12 grand. Jupi 8 prices make the Andromeda seem cheap. The Roland interface is really clear after I was trained by the DM12. But DM12 does not go J8 fat, and it's tricky to get some basic flavors sometimes, more than you might think. The TI is easier and more predictable even with all it's crazy choices. Fantastic guitar amp too. Made by the other disruptive German, Kemper. Some give him a hard time for not "updating" it. Like the Jupi 8, it is plenty impressive as is, and 1/11th the cost. Best 1150 I ever spent and the last synth I would sell, honestly. I had never heard of it, but I was pineing for more parts on the Deepmind, and stumbled on to Kemper's world.

 

Now he is killing it in the guitar world. The Virus TI did not really mature till the most recent firmware upgrades, and his "profiler" is the same, now just hitting full potential. It will "clone" any amp you have to the point pros cannot tell the difference. He literally cannot make them near fast enough. The actual cloning process is very scary. You don't want to be in the room. But the results can be shared.

 

And of course it is controversial also. TYG his mouth is under much better control than Uli's.

[uhoh7]

This pretty much sums it up, the good and the bad if you listen all the way.

[video:youtube]

The "swing" is epic stupidity, but I doubt it will sell great. I would not buy one. But the 2600 is another matter......

[Doerfler]

I thought this video was well woth my time , so much so I just watched it a second time and subscribed to the presenters YouTube Channel. YMMV

[ElmerJFudd]

This pretty much sums it up, the good and the bad if you listen all the way.

[video:youtube]

The "swing" is epic stupidity, but I doubt it will sell great. I would not buy one. But the 2600 is another matter......

 

Fairly balanced commentary on the state of Behringer, Uli as a public figure, the business practices, and honestly their total failure to manage public relations - even sabotaging their own brand"s image. But highly successful at cloning MI gear and bringing it to market at affordable price points.

[ProfD]

I thought this video was well woth my time...

Same here. Dude totally nailed it.

[uhoh7]

Get ready.......

 

 

By the look of this, it will be cheaper than I thought, as was the 2600. Now for the CS80.....

[GovernorSilver]

hey, I've got an EbTech Cable Tester! Had no idea that's what got B's lawsuit vs. the DSI employee started.

[Muad’Dib]

[video:youtube]

 

 

Behringer just posted this to their YouTube channel!

[Joe Muscara]

This pretty much sums it up, the good and the bad if you listen all the way.

[video:youtube]

The "swing" is epic stupidity, but I doubt it will sell great. I would not buy one. But the 2600 is another matter......

 

Fairly balanced commentary on the state of Behringer, Uli as a public figure, the business practices, and honestly their total failure to manage public relations - even sabotaging their own brand"s image. But highly successful at cloning MI gear and bringing it to market at affordable price points.

This guy nails how I feel about the company 100%. IOW, I still don't know if I will buy their OB clone or not. It will probably be really cool, but do I want to support the dumb-ass behaviors of Uli & Co.?

 

[Note that "dumb-ass behaviors" is merely my opinion. ]

[HSS]

Behringer clones are now starting to get cloned. I recently bought an Ammoon Pockrock guitar effects pedal which is a cheap clone of the Behringer V-Amp, which in turn is a cheap clone of the Line 6 Pocket Pod.

 

It's probaby only a matter of time before someone starts cloning and undercutting Behringer's synth clones. Karma is a beeeatch.

[Theo Verelst]

Being a copycat isn't really the same as a cheap producer, I don't think it's necessary to produce synthesizers in San Francisco or China. Like producimg goods for supermarkets isn't the same as making cheap quality, I don't think the B brand will set records in the sense of coming up with the Tesla of synthesis, and the only criterion in the end appears to be someone who desired, investedand persevered in producing cheap clones with probably not particularly useful interesting tunings of the parts.

 

T

[EricBarker]

My big beef is that many of the big companies insist on doing mini-keyboards and small control layouts. It kills me that Korg created a beautiful ARP throwback... only to give it a rubbish keybed. Sorry, I'll take a copycat over a mini keybed any day. Korg needs to man up and quit with the baby keyboards. They put out some killer synths and then nerf them.

[Josh Paxton]

There are situations in which I will be a conscientious consumer and refrain from supporting a company whose policies I disagree with. An affordable Oberheim clone is not one of those situations. Hurry up and take my money, Uli!

[EricBarker]

Rite?!

[uhoh7]

Never underestimate the power of communication, if you keep at it:

 

[video:youtube]

[Al Coda]

I read a lot of crap here ...

 

When there are legal problems, it´s matter of the companies to fight, finding compromize or go to court.

It´s not a case for users and these vids are made to catch a lot of attraction for count of clicks and likes.

I also recognize a lot of editing of these vids to optimize impact.

 

UB brings, at least it seems so for the time being, quality "old style" synths for a fraction of the price to the market.

We, as users, can choose from any market´s offers.

 

What do you fight for ? American manufacturers who built innovative, but not the most reliable,- gear in silicon valley garage factories in the past ?

 

These manufacturers should be happy someone saves their ideas from the past because they themselves don´t have the intention as also not the funds and production capacity to serve the demands of users looking for the original features of actual insanely expensive used vintage gear at an affordable price.

Is it bad drying out the insanely "high priced" market of "vintage gear" ?

 

UB not just only clones these instruments,- he uses their base and enhances the feature set.

When I look at the "page-2" features of the UB-Xa,- which a orig. OBX-a never had,- I like,- and expect even more when I see the display and the value knob.

This is NOT a simple OBX-a clone,- functionality wise it´s already better,- and (much) cheaper as the original for sure.

 

Is it really bad using modern manufacturing methods and make kind of enhanced re-issues of the old instruments which would never come back when UB didn´t have the intention to bring ´em back ?

Do you really expect Tom Oberheim,- in his age,- might have the interest to do himself ?

 

In fact I really hope for a UB SEM module, combinable for poly synth configurations together w/ better preset storage system etc.,- or a Matrix-12 w/ extended features.

These don´t need a keyboard action urgently,- at least for me ...

A lot of functionality needing analog implementation in the past, works better w/ digital implementation today,- AS LONG IT DOESN´T affect the analog signal path.

Today´s digital components are WAY better than these used in late 70s early 80s !

Memory alone was expensive as hell ...

Vintage logic chips ... a nitemare.

 

Don´t forget,- the old gear wasn´t really good,- also depending on quality/reliability of parts available at that time.

It just only sounded and looked great for that time.

 

In the past, a synthesizer was magic for most of the people around the globe,-

You had a synth on stage, created some sounds "never heard before" and you were the king for that nite.

Today it´s a tool you can get in serveral variants, software and hardware, for a variety of prices (even as freeware !), in different quality and so on.

Surprisingly "freeware" today doesn´t mean it´s crap.

There´s so much of freeware software around, you can build your entire home studio around a PC, Cockos Reaper (for a small licence) and freeware plugins.

It´s time consuming, but you´ll find what you really need and it works.

Commercial stuff just only speeds up for the pro under pressure not thinking about money.

That´s o.k.,- I also use commecial stuff like NI Komplete Ultimate Collector´s Edition or S|C SCOPE p.ex..

 

I say because in every hardware synth/sampler/Keyboard today works software.

 

In the past, there wasn´t that diversity,- and just only because of that detail,- the instruments cost a kingdom.

 

It´s simple,-

when something is rare, it costs a lot, even it´s unreliable.

When it´s a mass product, it´s cheap.

UB is able to produce this gear as a mass product, that´s why it´s cheap now and even w/ extended features.

 

So,- WHEN these products sound very close vs the originals and features set is extended as also reliability might be improved,- why in the world picking on UB all the time ???

 

Are musicians really the judges of the MI market ?

 

Reliability of Behringer gear:

 

I don´t have many items, but some ...

They ALL survived moves and being in stock in basements for years because lack of room to set everything up.

 

Other, much more expensive and "famous" gear didn´t.

 

Up to now, I didn´t need any repair for these few Behringer pieces of gear.

 

We now can discuss the sonic quality of these items,- for (home-) studio use p.ex. ... or touring.

But that´s another story.

 

I only say,- you can make almost every piece of gear sound good in a given mix,- depending on YOUR creavity.

I go so far and say "let it hiss to a degree".

All these productions being realized on tape and w/ analog outboard gear introduced hiss, audio artefacts, sound degradation.

That was possibly "the magic" already.

 

But gear never made a hit and won´t in future !

 

So what ?

When you have the right idea,- you might have a hit with or without Behringer gear and that also rules for all the other manufacturers.

 

What do "the other manufacturers" fear to lose then ?

The stupid buyer who things gear makes better nusic ?

The one for whom their exotic and "high quality" gear was never made for ?

 

A.C.

[lsj]

to Al Coda, great post I totally agree with you and enough already with this topic. I have several behringer products and love them. early seventies had an original minimoog but now would never even think of purchasing an original minimoog, so I purchased the poly D. doesn't sound like the original, wrong. not every original minimoog sounded the same, just like hammond organs. every hammond organ sounded sometimes a little better or a lot different from one another, I should know, presently have one but owned seven of them, and I have to say that the three B-3's that I owned were the weakest of all the models that I owned. I'm always tired of hearing, is it a B-3 hammond you have? in conclusion, buy the product you want or don't, but please don't try to convince me with your opinion. I'm sick of all the crap from this past election of people trying to push their opinions on me, enough already............Larry

[Theo Verelst]

I read a lot of crap here ...

 

...

So,- WHEN these products sound very close vs the originals and features set is extended as also reliability might be improved,- why in the world picking on UB all the time ???

 

...

A.C.

 

It's "only" a philosofical, possibly a moral and economical discussion, mostly. In the oligarchy of the leadership in Electrical Engineering, non-legal arguments about intellectual property are in place.

 

TV

[PianoMan51]

For those just jumping into this discussion, D.C. Al Coda.