Kurzweil releases PC4-7 and SP6-7

[AnotherScott]

Finally, PC4-7 exists! Action feels quite nice. It does get stiffer toward the rear of the keys, but not as bad as on many other boards. Really, it feels quite nice to play, overall. Piano dynamics are about as controllable as I've ever seen on a non-hammer board.

[HSS]

Finally, PC4-7 exists! Action feels quite nice. It does get stiffer toward the rear of the keys, but not as bad as on many other boards. Really, it feels quite nice to play, overall. Piano dynamics are about as controllable as I've ever seen on a non-hammer board.

That's good news about the action which I understand is Medeli. How would you compare it to the Medeli SW action in the old SP4-7?

[ElmerJFudd]

Finally, PC4-7 exists! Action feels quite nice. It does get stiffer toward the rear of the keys, but not as bad as on many other boards. Really, it feels quite nice to play, overall. Piano dynamics are about as controllable as I've ever seen on a non-hammer board.

 

Glad to hear you got your hands on it, Scott. The magic question. Can you trigger notes at the back of the black and white keys, against the fall board? Better action than the VR-09? How about compared to a TP-08 or a YC-61?

[AnotherScott]

How would you compare it to the Medeli SW action in the old SP4-7?

Similar. Somehow a little more solid/substantial feeling, though. And better than my MODX7 or Korg PA1000. Competitive with the Vox Continental. Vox is more even to the back which is nice. But the "harder edges" to the keys (especially the black keys) makes the PC4-7 seem more piano like. I think the Kurz would be better at preventing you from accidentally hitting notes adjacent to your target (a common problem with playing piano on non-hammer actions), but the edges are not sharp like at least some SP4-7 actions were, there's no impediment to organ playing.

[HSS]

How would you compare it to the Medeli SW action in the old SP4-7?

Similar. Somehow a little more solid/substantial feeling, though. And better than my MODX7 or Korg PA1000. Competitive with the Vox Continental. Vox is more even to the back which is nice. But the "harder edges" to the keys (especially the black keys) makes the PC4-7 seem more piano like. I think the Kurz would be better at preventing you from accidentally hitting notes adjacent to your target (a common problem with playing piano on non-hammer actions), but the edges are not sharp like the early SP4-7, there's no impediment to organ playing.

Thanks. That sounds encouraging. I like the SP4-7's action and have been considering upgrading to either the PC4-7 or SP6-7.

[Franz Schiller]

May I ask where you picked it up from? Kraft or Sweetwater? (dunno if forum rules allow this but thought I'd ask)

[AnotherScott]

I actually used MassMusik who I have good history with, and I got a deal by buying the PC4-7 and the SK Pro together. (The Hammond is shipping to me next week.) If it weren't for the fact that I was looking to buy the Hammond as well, I hope I would have remembered to check with Dave Weiser!

[Fleer]

What will you do with your PC4, A/Scott?

[AnotherScott]

What will you do with your PC4, A/Scott?

Garage sale!

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3094502

[ElmerJFudd]

Congrats on arrival of this new gem, Scott.

I know you"re very familiar with the way the VR-09 and PX-S1000/3000 suffer from being able to trigger notes at the fall board. What kind of synth action has Kurzweil supplied here? More like a TP-08 or 09? Anything like the YC or Jupiter-80 (probably not in its price range). At least as good as your Artis-7?

[pawelsz]

Congrats on arrival of this new gem, Scott.

I know you"re very familiar with the way the VR-09 and PX-S1000/3000 suffer from being able to trigger notes at the fall board. What kind of synth action has Kurzweil supplied here? More like a TP-08 or 09? Anything like the YC or Jupiter-80 (probably not in its price range). At least as good as your Artis-7?

 

Looking from the various videos of playing people and also some own experience:

I think it is rather similar to TP9 when it comes to pivot length, YC61 should be similar. TP8 is quite long as well as Vox Conti action, VR-09/FA-06/JUNO-DS61 is short. Jupiter-80 is probably same as old Fantoms S/X/G (checked on Syntaur) so, looooooooooooong and excellent to play on.

 

But I'm very looking forward to Scott's reply on this topic.

[AnotherScott]

It's more "piano-like" than most semi-weighteds.

 

I'd say it feels better than the Artis 7 with its original springs (which are too heavily sprung for my taste), but not as good as the Artis 7 with the after-market springs (because the Artis 7 keys are longer and more consistent front to back).

 

In terms of that front-to-back issue, it's probably similar to the PX-S1000/3000, which I notice but don't find nearly as problematic as some other people do. It's not as severe as on the low end Rolands and Korgs, or even as severe as on the Numa Compact 2/2X.

 

There are too many TP8 and TP9 variants for me to answer the question of how it compares to those, beyond noting that the Artis 7 and Numa Compact 2/2X are examples of some of them, and I like it better than the TP/8O at least as employed by Nord and Dexibell.

 

I'd rank its feel above the YC61 in overall playability (and I consider the YC61 to be above average).

 

As mentioned earlier, it's close in feeling to the action of the SP4-7, have you ever played that one?

[Jaspla]

A/Scott, seeing you have both the PC4 and PC4-7, how would you compare those when playing acoustic piano.

 

I know the PC4-7 response would be faster for synth, organ, etc. but an interest in this more compact board, is to how its semi-weighted response works with acoustic (or EP).

 

As you might have had other weighted keys (Privias, PX-S1000/300, KOrg SV-1, Roland RD-2000)...how might the PC4-7 action compare with any of these

[drawback]

Alluding to the SP4-7 gives me a good idea of the feel. I really liked that action, although I wasn"t a fan of the sharp edges on the lips. As a recent convert to a Kronos61 (which continues to be amazing in all aspects) the PC4-7 has me wondering if it"s superior in enough ways to go after one. I"d have to part with the Kronos to do it and right now it"s a 'you"ll have to pry it from my cold, dead hands' keyboard. But sooner or later...

[ElmerJFudd]

I"ve played the SP4-8 which is a TP-100, not a love affair compared to some better digital piano actions, but usually chosen in boards where they are trying to keep weight and price down on a weighted keyboard.

 

Yamaha"s $2k+ boards have always had nice feeling semi weight synth actions. I haven"t played the YC-61 yet but have played the Montage which is a nice action. Your suggestion that the PC4-7 is of similar quality to better Yamaha synth actions has me wanting to take a drive to play it. Notes getting weak or not triggering close to the fall board, I"ll have to see for myself how much it does or doesn"t bother. My VR-700 has a really nice playing semi weight synth action with waterfall keys. It can trigger a note with useable velocity along the entire length of the keys. My previous XP-80 could do the same. I wish Roland had used it again in the 730.

 

On a side note, the Kronos 61 also has a very nice synth action when compared to VR-09, Krome.

[AnotherScott]

A/Scott, seeing you have both the PC4 and PC4-7, how would you compare those when playing acoustic piano.

It's a tough question. Many years ago, I took the position that ANY hammer action board for piano was better than ANY non-hammer action board for piano... but that was before I played some really terrible hammer actions and some surprisingly playable non-hammer actions. Certainly the hammer action will always feel more "authentic," but which feels "better" is more subjective.

 

The PC4 88 has a good "journeyman" action. It doesn't make me feel, "wow, I love playing this thing," but also it doesn't make me feel "ugh, this thing sucks the joy out of playing." And I have played numerous actions in both of those other categories. If you want an 88-key board that weighs under 35 lbs, there's no current board that I can say clearly feels better to me than the PC4 (and I guess the SP6, which I've never played, but should feel the same). It's close between PC4 and Casio PX5S. Different. In some ways I find the Casio better, but in other ways, not as good.

 

The PC4-7 does not feel as much like a piano as the PC4 (lacking the hammer mechanism), and it definitely lags behind the PC4 in responsiveness toward the back of its keys (which right there may kill it for some people), but subjectively, I am really enjoying playing piano on it regardless, maybe even more than on the PC4. Maybe some of that was that my expectations were lower, but I think Kurz somehow did manage a really nice, natural feeling velocity mapping that works surprisingly well. By that I mean, it feels ok with the power off, certainly as semi-weighteds go, but when you power it on an call up a piano/EP sound, it suddenly seems like a better action. It feels nice and is sufficiently expressive, and as lightweight a board as the PC4 is, it's nice to shave off the 9 lbs, and a noticeable amount of bulk as well. I would have no problem gigging with the PC4-7 as my piano board. That said, I'd still prefer to put the PC4-7 over some board that had a thoroughly enjoyable hammer action.

 

In fact, as I consider what board I will typically want to pair with the PC4-7 for 2-board gigs, I have not yet decided whether I'd rather put the PC4-7 on bottom as my piano-focussed board and put something else above, or put a hammer action beneath it. I'm leaning toward the latter, which in my case also makes it easier for me to keep the keys of the two boards near each other as I prefer. (In part my decision may rely on how enamored I am of the Hammond SK Pro when I get my hands on one.)

 

As you might have had other weighted keys (Privias, PX-S1000/300, KOrg SV-1, Roland RD-2000)...how might the PC4-7 action compare with any of these

Well, not having hammers, as I said, it will not feel as authentically piano-like as any of those. But in terms of how satisfying it is to play pianos on it? Well, I'd say the SV1 wins there (at double the weight, 7x-to-7x). I've hardly played any of the current Rolands... the few times I've briefly run my fingers over them, I just don't care for them, they all feel sluggish to me. So I'm guessing I'd enjoy playing pianos on the PC4-7 more. But this is all so subjective, some people love those Rolands. Privias vary. As I said, I put PX5S in roughly PC4 territory, depite feeling very different, just different strengths and weaknesses. I haven't played the newer generation PX-S enough. Early Privias are some of my favorite hammer action boards... in fact, I picked up a PX-320 I really like, which may even end up being what I put under the PC4-7. But the middle era, PX-130/330, I didn't care for. Though even then, not all the models I've played of a given era have felt the same as each other, for some reason.

 

Alluding to the SP4-7 gives me a good idea of the feel. I really liked that action, although I wasn"t a fan of the sharp edges on the lips.

Yeah. Some were sharp, some weren't. The non-sharp ones were quite good, I thought. And I saw a video online where someone filed the sharp edges off his. I never would have thought to do that, but apparently it works. Eddie Jobson did the same thing with his VAX77.

 

As a recent convert to a Kronos61 (which continues to be amazing in all aspects) the PC4-7 has me wondering if it"s superior in enough ways to go after one. I"d have to part with the Kronos to do it and right now it"s a 'you"ll have to pry it from my cold, dead hands' keyboard. But sooner or later...

That's a tough one. Kronos is obviously a first class board, and for every sound or function you might prefer on the Kurz, you'll probably find one you prefer on Kronos. The decision for me would be easy because I'll take "76 keys at 19 lbs" over "61 keys at ~30 lbs", but if there were a 76 key 19 lb Kronos? That would be different. But I don't know if the size/weight equation is as important to you as it is to me. I will give the Kurz the edge on piano playability of the action, though. Other than those action and size/weight criteria, I think I'd have to go with Kronos.

[Fuzzy1]

Scott I think Steve B is gonna be a happy camper there !! If He didn't I was going to try to buy that PC4 ! Great on getting your PC4-7 !

[AnotherScott]

I apparently missed some posts early on, so catching up...

 

Glad to hear you got your hands on it, Scott. The magic question. Can you trigger notes at the back of the black and white keys, against the fall board? Better action than the VR-09? How about compared to a TP-08 or a YC-61?

At higher velocities, I can trigger notes far back pretty well, but if you're playing a pianissimo passage, the back inch or so will be problematic. Yes it's a better action than the VR-09, both overall, and in how severe the back-of-key issue is. It's especially a much better action for pianos. Also, I think the "push back" is less. (I don't have the boards immediately available to compare, but I think my memory is categorizing all this correctly.) As I mentioned elsewhere, there are too many TP/8 variations to compare point-by-point, but I did cover how I think it compares to the TP/8 "piano" version as implemented in the Artis 7 and the TP/8O as implemented in the Nords/Dexibells, and will discuss the Artis 7 comparison further below. As for the YC61, overall, I find the PC4-7 action preferable, though IIRC, the YC61 did not have the issue of getting stiff toward the rear. I liked the YC61 action quite a bit, but for overall enjoyment, I'd rank the PC4-7 and Vox Continental a bit higher.

 

Looking from the various videos of playing people and also some own experience:

I think it is rather similar to TP9 when it comes to pivot length, YC61 should be similar. TP8 is quite long as well as Vox Conti action, VR-09/FA-06/JUNO-DS61 is short. .

Unless I messed up my measuring... VR-09/FA-06/JUNO-DS61 keys are about 1/8" shorter than the PC4-7, while Vox Continental keys are about 1/8" longer than those on the PC4-7, and are also more even feeling all the way back. Compared to PC4-7, the Vox keys are a little more rounded at the edges (not just the waterfall front, but the sides too) which makes it feel a bit more organ-like whereas the Kurz feels a bit more piano-like by comparison, but not to the extent that it impedes organ playing. A waterfall purist will feel the difference, but the PC4-7 lip is not so severe as to really get in the way of those techniques, IMO. Overall, I really like both actions. But even though the Vox is one of the better SW actions for piano playing, the PC4-7 is better. Yes, the Vox is more consistent to the back, but the key shape favors the Kurz, I think it's easier to play piano more cleanly.

 

Also, while the Vox is greatly aided by being able to easily manipulate its Dynamics knob in real time, I didn't really feel a need for it in my (admittedly so far very brief) time on the Kurz, rather I found sounds that simply behaved as I wanted. If you want the equivalent of the Vox' tweaking, the programmability of the PC4-7--which you can see just going through its stock piano presets--is such that it is still easy to switch from a piano especially suitable for more gentle playing to one that's very rock-and-roll. It's nice that on the Vox you can kind of do that at any time by turning a knob, but once you know which patches are which on the Kurz, it's easy enough to just switch from one kind of responsiveness to the other, if you need something different from what you're getting within a single patch.

 

So if I were to choose between the Vox and PC4-7 strictly on the basis of how their semi-weighted actions compare, I might say Kurzweil if you're piano-focussed, Vox if you're organ focussed... but both are quite good for both.

 

The keys in the TP8/Piano (Artis 7) are about 1/2" longer than those in the Vox, and it is even all the way back. It's really a great action, if you either like it's springiness or can find alternate springs. It probably remains my favorite non-hammer action overall. (Dexibell uses this action in their S1... I've never played one of those, and am curious about how heavily sprung it is.)

 

The PC4-7 keys appear to be exactly the same length as the SP4-7 keys, so I suspect it is a refinement of the same Medelli action.

 

As imperfect as the nickel tests are, these front-of-white-key figures may be of some interest...

 

Stacked nickels required to initiate any movement (which is not the same as point of greatest resistance, or enough to sound a note):

PC4-7 = 12, Vox = 11, Artis 7 with replacement springs = 8, SP4-7 = 11

 

Stacked nickels required to keep a depressed key fully depressed:

PC4-7 - 19, Vox = 10, Artis 7 with replacement springs = 22, SP4-7 = 20

[pawelsz]

Artis 7 is TP/8P not TP/9P. TP/9P is Numa Compact.

When I described JUNO-DS/VR-09/FA-06 as short I meant short pivot of "hidden part of the key", I ignored how long the visible part of any key is.

It is nice to read that PC4-7 (and I believe SP6-7 is same) is so nice for piano playing.

So, Vox remains the most versatile and best design with its long pivot and low force needed to keep key depressed.

[AnotherScott]

Artis 7 is TP/8P not TP/9P. TP/9P is Numa Compact.

Thanks, fixed.

 

In terms of the comparing to the Numa Compact 2X, the PC4-7 feels better. I think the Numa keys are slightly longer, but the rear-of-key pushback is more severe. The velocity mapping of the piano is also not as good on the Numa.

 

So, Vox remains the most versatile and best design with its long pivot and low force needed to keep key depressed.

As I said, Vox has a great action, one of my favorites, and I can certainly see people preferring it to the Kurz... but I'd still say that piano feels better on the PC4-7... which is no small feat, since piano on the Vox is pretty good!

[raffkey]

Hey (Another) Scott,

 

I'm thinking of purchasing the PC 4 7 from MassMusik, as I see you did. Are they are a 'brick and motar' building, i.e. an actual store I can visit? The address seems to refer to a house in a residential neighborhood in a town in Wisconsin.

[AnotherScott]

Honestly, I don't know.

[felis]

Is the after touch better on the PC4-7 than on the PC4? That's my biggest gripe about the PC4.

[AnotherScott]

Is the after touch better on the PC4-7 than on the PC4? That's my biggest gripe about the PC4.

I am hesitant to characterize "better" vs "worse" but it is easier to trigger the AT from the front of the white keys. You no longer need to simultaneously slide your finger up toward the black keys to trigger it easily... it triggers quite well from under the front of the white keys. OTOH, triggering aftertouch on a black key seems to me to be possibly harder than on the PC4. That's from memory, though... I was not able to compare the two side by side. Overall, on the white keys, the AT feels very good to me... triggers easily, but not so easily as to lead you to trigger it accidentally. On the black keys, you need to push on it harder.

[nadroj]

Is the after touch better on the PC4-7 than on the PC4? That's my biggest gripe about the PC4.

I am hesitant to characterize "better" vs "worse" but it is easier to trigger the AT from the front of the white keys. You no longer need to simultaneously slide your finger up toward the black keys to trigger it easily... it triggers quite well from under the front of the white keys. OTOH, triggering aftertouch on a black key seems to me to be possibly harder than on the PC4. That's from memory, though... I was not able to compare the two side by side. Overall, on the white keys, the AT feels very good to me... triggers easily, but not so easily as to lead you to trigger it accidentally. On the black keys, you need to push on it harder.

 

Scott, loving your insight here. How would you compare the keys on the PC4-7 compared to say, the Nord Electro/Stage SW range? Is it lighter, springier, or heavier? I discounted the PC4-7 because I thought it had standard synth/"semi-weighted" keys seen in boards in this price range, but they look more substantial than others I've seen. It's looking like a great contender for that elusive "compromise 1 board all-in-one solution", with the added benefit that it doesn't cost an arm and a leg. A vent coupled with the Purgatory Creek sounds could probably see it cover everything I love about my MODX/Electro.

 

It looks like the PC4-7 keys have a bottom part to them (like piano keys), as opposed to my MODX-7, which like most synth/"semi-weighted" actions has nothing underneath them. How does that add to the feel?

[Morrissey]

Public service announcement: in case you didn't see the other thread, it appears Kurzweil is raising prices, at least in the U.S., effective June 1: CLONK

[jeffincltnc]

I've bought a couple of keyboards from Massmusik, and Mike is a good source of B-stock if you want to save a few bucks. I picked up a B-stock Forte 7 from him a few years ago and recently purchased a new Wave 2 from him. Good guy.

[Jaspla]

As a predominately 'acoustic/EP' player, I finally found the best Velocity map (Hard2) and Pressure map (Harder) for the PC4-7. The default settings when shipped were not going to cut it. With these settings, I've started to get comfortable playing acoustic/EP sounds where you expect that weighted action. It's certainly not as weighted as a PC4, but is now becoming 'comfortable'. The semi-weighted action is of course lighter and faster, but the large combination of Velocity/pressure settings helps to provide the experience of a more weighted keybed.

 

Below is a fairly lengthy video of a player exploring an SP6-7. It's in italian with subtitles, but quite informative as you can see this gifted player pretty easily trying a wide variety of piano, EP, organ, synth sounds and approaches on the board. The sp6-7 action and sound engine is largely the same with the exception that the PC4-7 also has a varied touch/pressure map settings. They both use the same Medeli keybed.

 

[Tom Williams]

Okay, my lovely spouse has promised not to kill me if I order a PC4-7 (financed) before the June 1 price hike.

 

So I am begging for information from all (both) of the people on this forum who have actually bought or at least demoed the PC4-7:

 

(1) is the action light enough for synth / organ playing?

(2) is it "all right" for pop piano parts?

 

(1+2) How does the action compare with the K2500 / K2600 seventy-whatsit keyboards? I love the action on my (currently out of commission) K2600.

 

I am not wedded to hammer action, even for pianos. I have lousy musculature, and prefer a light touch anyway; for example, my otherwise-wonderful Casio PX5S's action is heavier than I like.

[AnotherScott]

(1) is the action light enough for synth / organ playing?

(2) is it "all right" for pop piano parts?

(1) yes

(2) yes... I'd even say better than "all right," it's one of the better piano actions I've played, as non-hammer actions go. Though the resistance does increaese toward the reat of the keys.