Yamaha CP88 and 73 - Deserve their own thread

[Nicky]

pretty sure that's the Ravenscroft plug-in

[Dave Number Four]

That video is one answer to the "why not just use the built-in sounds/spaghetti" thread.

 

Although on a live gig you probably wouldn't be able to hear nearly that much detail. Sound great, though

[ElmerJFudd]

Ya. At home, the playing listening is ideal. I can use internal or vst, monitor in stereo and tweak for the one room, done. But I"m not interested to cart all that for gigs. So the slab DP, one monitor and a few minutes to tweak is it. I"m sure that"s the case for a lot of us.

[Art-0252]

It's likely the Keyscape C7, that's what I use with my Cp88 at home ð¤·ââï¸

[ChazKeys]

The 73 and 88 actions are completely different designs. The customizable velocity curves introduced with the new update "should" address the shortcomings people found in the responsiveness of the 73 in particular...

 

I really doubt velocity curves can fix blackkey´s repetition and partially noisy keys problems.

Velocity curves affect all keys and not only the black ones.

So, I have still the impression Yamaha ignores the issue.

 

A.C.

I'm also interested in knowing if the velocity curves updates has improved the feel of the 73. I sold mine just before the update came out so I couldn't test it. I bought it new in August 2018 and it didn't have the black key repetition issue but several keys had started to get 'clacky'. The problem seems to affect the P125 series as well. Anyway I cured it by simply lifting the offending keys off the keybed and reseating them. Like the P125/121 the keys are not separate but come out in a group of about 1 octave. Weirdly they seem to be connected together by thin plastic. Anyway, after taking them out and refitting them the clicking stopped. Maybe some loose plastic? I don't know how long this fix is good for but it was fine until I sold it. I still haven't found a suitable 73 key replacement so considering buying another one.

[stoken6]

Wonderful musicianship, and the tone of the piano is so consistent across the range.

 

OT question - what is the thing on the accordion, on the "front panel" in front of the player's right hand, about an octave up from the lowest note? Never seen that on an accordion, and an image search for Weltmeister accordions didn't reveal anything?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[pawelsz]

The 73 and 88 actions are completely different designs. The customizable velocity curves introduced with the new update "should" address the shortcomings people found in the responsiveness of the 73 in particular...

 

I really doubt velocity curves can fix blackkey´s repetition and partially noisy keys problems.

Velocity curves affect all keys and not only the black ones.

So, I have still the impression Yamaha ignores the issue.

 

A.C.

I'm also interested in knowing if the velocity curves updates has improved the feel of the 73. I sold mine just before the update came out so I couldn't test it. I bought it new in August 2018 and it didn't have the black key repetition issue but several keys had started to get 'clacky'. The problem seems to affect the P125 series as well. Anyway I cured it by simply lifting the offending keys off the keybed and reseating them. Like the P125/121 the keys are not separate but come out in a group of about 1 octave. Weirdly they seem to be connected together by thin plastic. Anyway, after taking them out and refitting them the clicking stopped. Maybe some loose plastic? I don't know how long this fix is good for but it was fine until I sold it. I still haven't found a suitable 73 key replacement so considering buying another one.

 

My theory about BHS (Balanced Hammer Standard) being a non-graded GHS (Graded Hammer Standard) or something very very similar seems to be correct. Sorry, Yamaha. Everyone who was talking about Motif-like, Montage-like, BHE-like feeling in all promotional videos was most likely missing the truth and just repeating words created in marketing department. Motif, Montage etc. all use separate keys - not groups of keys made with single plastic mould! There are real "hinges" in Motif/Montage keybeds not just plastic bending! Plastic bending is everywhere in lower tier models like lower P-series, DGX-series, MOX8/MOXF8/MODX8 - because it's GHS. Unfortunately I haven't played CP73/YC73 but I came to this conclusion just by seeing the behaviour of the keys on videos and trying to approximate pivot length.

BHE (Balanced Hammer Effect) is non-graded version of GHE/GH (Graded Hammer Effect and Graded Hammer - I don't know what is the difference between them) and derivatives GH3, GH3X, NW, NW-STAGE, NWX, NW-GH, NW-GH3 they're all same family of well-known Yamaha actions.

 

OTOH I find NWX action in my P-515 one of the best actions I played and I alwast felt comfortable on Yamaha GH-based actions. They really could do CP73 with just 73 version of NW-GH action. That would add a little weight, but not that much in my opinion, and could make CP73 much more competitive action-wise in 73/76-key stage pianos market. CP73 could be my first choice over Korg Grandstage/SV-2 if it was NW-GH action in it. Sound character difference is another story.

 

The comparison image in attached file, CP88 on the left, CP73 on the right.

[dickiefunk]

I can confirm Sorin used the Ravenscroft piano in this video. I sent him a pm and he told me this himself.

[Kurt W]

Will the CP88 triple sensor action give triple sensor functionality via midi when used as a vst-controller with Ravenscroft? First of all retrigger via the middle sensor?

[Dockeys]

I have a CP73 on the way and have a question for CP/YC owners. Does anyone own the YMR-04 music stand? I’m looking at picking one up as it would fit into the case and would save me bringing a larger music stand. Is it sturdy and robust enough for using on gigs? It’s pretty pricy for what it is so just looking for opinions. Cheers. 

[Coker]

I used to use an attached music stand but found that it rocked too much in sympathy with my playing.  Happy to stick with a folding Hercules stand that fits in my case with keyboard stand, seat, and speaker stands.

[ElmerJFudd]

6 minutes ago, Dockeys said:

I have a CP73 on the way and have a question for CP/YC owners. Does anyone own the YMR-04 music stand? I’m looking at picking one up as it would fit into the case and would save me bringing a larger music stand. Is it sturdy and robust enough for using on gigs? It’s pretty pricy for what it is so just looking for opinions. Cheers. 

I use mine on gigs.  What they charge for it is ridiculous.  Check with Kraft. They had the best price (no I don’t work for Kraft).   It’s plastic with what looks like metal pins.  The plastic itself is sturdy.   Could you break it by stepping on it?  Yes.  Could you destroy the pins by kicking it off your YC with a Taekwondo move?  Yes.  But it fits the instrument and is made of decent material.  

[Dockeys]

Thanks for the replies. Might hold off for a while and see if u can pick up a b stock one if they crop up. Thank you. 

[Dockeys]

CP73 arrived this morning. I'm liking it, though the sub section is as it was last year when I had the CP first..quite lame. Obviously coming from the MODX its not comparable and the CP is a stage piano first and foremost. Still, the sub section has a feel of 3rd rate early motif sounds. Pianos and elec pianos are great and I'm happy with the action. Nicer connection for me between keyed and sounds compared to the Numa X 73. I'll probably keep this one, the update on the YC was tempting but I'll just use the Hammond iPad app for the moment. 

 

Quick question: does any CP users know if you can assign volume to say an Ipad using one of the other knobs on the CP panel? I see you can use the mod wheel to assign volume control to an external device (iPad) which works but Ive been looking up Blake Angelos's Mastering the CP which digs deep into master mode but can't find anything about assigning volume to an external device on the front CP panel. Will report back on more once I dig deeper into it.

 

[jeffincltnc]

2 hours ago, Dockeys said:

Quick question: does any CP users know if you can assign volume to say an Ipad using one of the other knobs on the CP panel? I see you can use the mod wheel to assign volume control to an external device (iPad) which works but Ive been looking up Blake Angelos's Mastering the CP which digs deep into master mode but can't find anything about assigning volume to an external device on the front CP panel. Will report back on more once I dig deeper into it.

 

 

I'm also interested in knowing if there is any way to adjust input gain on the fly from the front CP panel.  I couldn't find this in the manual and I would much rather have some way to adjust this gain to increase/decrease volume of an external source through the inputs than the small dial on the back.  If not, could it be assigned to an expression pedal?

[Dockeys]

You can assign usb volume to the expression pedal and control it from there. This guy does it:

 

here’s how you can do it via the mod stick:

No idea how to assign the existing volume knobs on the CP for usb volume though?? Any ideas?

[AnotherScott]

8 hours ago, Dockeys said:

Quick question: does any CP users know if you can assign volume to say an Ipad using one of the other knobs on the CP panel? I see you can use the mod wheel to assign volume control to an external device (iPad) which works but Ive been looking up Blake Angelos's Mastering the CP which digs deep into master mode but can't find anything about assigning volume to an external device on the front CP panel. 

 

Yes, there's apparently a way to use one of the section volume controls to control your iPad volume... see the beginning of the post at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/171775-yamaha-cp88-and-73-deserve-their-own-thread/page/21/#comment-2850958 

 

5 hours ago, jeffinpghpa said:

 

I'm also interested in knowing if there is any way to adjust input gain on the fly from the front CP panel.  I couldn't find this in the manual and I would much rather have some way to adjust this gain to increase/decrease volume of an external source through the inputs than the small dial on the back.

 

I was even glad to see the small dial on the back, because that's still more than some other boards have for their aux line inputs (like the Nords). It's not too bad if it's your only board, but if you have another board above, yeah, it could basically be inaccessible.

 

5 hours ago, jeffinpghpa said:

If not, could it be assigned to an expression pedal?

 

I doubt it... I suspect it's a physical analog pot on the signal, and not accessible to other software/MIDI control. But... maybe you could run the output of the iPad INTO an analog volume pedal, and then run the output of that pedal into the line input of the Yamaha.

 

[jeffincltnc]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Yes, there's apparently a way to use one of the section volume controls to control your iPad volume... see the beginning of the post at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/171775-yamaha-cp88-and-73-deserve-their-own-thread/page/21/#comment-2850958 

 

 

I was even glad to see the small dial on the back, because that's still more than some other boards have for their aux line inputs (like the Nords). It's not too bad if it's your only board, but if you have another board above, yeah, it could basically be inaccessible.

 

 

I doubt it... I suspect it's a physical analog pot on the signal, and not accessible to other software/MIDI control. But... maybe you could run the output of the iPad INTO an analog volume pedal, and then run the output of that pedal into the line input of the Yamaha.

 

 

I think the new Studiologic Numa X series has a control for external source volumes on the top controls as part of the mixer functionality.  Not a bad feature to have.

[AnotherScott]

14 minutes ago, jeffinpghpa said:

 

I think the new Studiologic Numa X series has a control for external source volumes on the top controls as part of the mixer functionality.  Not a bad feature to have.

 

Yeah, a lot of boards have (or allow you to assign) front panel controls to adjust the volumes of external zones. It's unfortunate these Yamahas do not. Some time ago, I posted an idea on ideascale about repurposing some knobs on the CP, but that's been moved to the "Reserve" category which means they have eliminated that idea from consideration. More recently, though, I came up with an alternate idea of using different knobs, the 4 EQ knobs, posted in the YC section at https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/285347 in case anyone would like to vote it up...

[dbhoosier]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Yeah, a lot of boards have (or allow you to assign) front panel controls to adjust the volumes of external zones. It's unfortunate these Yamahas do not. Some time ago, I posted an idea on ideascale about repurposing some knobs on the CP, but that's been moved to the "Reserve" category which means they have eliminated that idea from consideration. More recently, though, I came up with an alternate idea of using different knobs, the 4 EQ knobs, posted in the YC section at https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/285347 in case anyone would like to vote it up...

Just gave it an upvote and comment...  

[ChazKeys]

Based on my needs I found the CP to be useless as controller keyboard. However, if you just want to control iPad volume you can assign USB Audio Volume to either FC1 or FC2. You can then use an expression pedal  to control the iPad. But be warned that changing presets will reset the Audio USB volume to 64!  I also posted that issue on IdeaScale - maybe it got sorted but I don't have the CP anymore. Another workaround is to use the knobs/switches on a section that is switched off. 

[Dockeys]

1 minute ago, ChazKeys said:

Based on my needs I found the CP to be useless as controller keyboard. However, if you just want to control iPad volume you can assign USB Audio Volume to either FC1 or FC2. You can then use an expression pedal  to control the iPad. But be warned that changing presets will reset the Audio USB volume to 64!  I also posted that issue on IdeaScale - maybe it got sorted but I don't have the CP anymore. Another workaround is to use the knobs/switches on a section that is switched off. 

cool thanks for letting me know. I thought a switched off section wouldn’t  work midi if it’s turned off? I’ll experiment with it later in the week. 

[ChazKeys]

Have a look at P29 - MIDI CONTROL  

 MIDI Control = Invert
The section lamps are lit and all controls are enabled. Control change messages can be transmitted or received, only when the Voice section [ON/ OFF] switches are set to OFF.

 

[Dockeys]

42 minutes ago, ChazKeys said:

Have a look at P29 - MIDI CONTROL  

 MIDI Control = Invert
The section lamps are lit and all controls are enabled. Control change messages can be transmitted or received, only when the Voice section [ON/ OFF] switches are set to OFF.

 

That’s great to know. Thanks Chaz for the pointers and thanks to AnotherScott as well for the other advice. Workarounds like this should be enough for me to get what I want out of the CP73. Will report back once I’m back home with the board. 

[AnotherScott]

37 minutes ago, ChazKeys said:

Have a look at P29 - MIDI CONTROL  

 MIDI Control = Invert
The section lamps are lit and all controls are enabled. Control change messages can be transmitted or received, only when the Voice section [ON/ OFF] switches are set to OFF.

 

 

Although I also referenced our earlier conversation about that some posts up, I hadn't tried it myself yet (on my similarly featured newly acquired YC). I just read more detail and experimented and discovered some more stuff that may be helpful here. Note that this is based on my YC experience, there may be some difference on the CP, though I suspect its largely if not entirely the same.

 

First, none of the knobs send MIDI volume (not even the knobs that are volume controls for their respective sections). So if you want to use the knobs as volume controls for external sounds, you'll need to remap what the knobs do on the receiving side. So if, for example, you're running an iPad app which does not have mappable controls but responds to MIDI volume, you'll have to use an interim app to map the fixed CC that the Yamaha sends to the MIDI volume the app wants to see.

 

Second, the Invert function does not work with Display Lights enabled. That means that you can't as easily silently select the sound for an inactive section before you actually need to activate and play it. Though you can work around that by turning the volume down on the section while sound-surfing, and then bringing up the volume when you need it; or by inactivating the section after you find the sound, raising its volume (which works while inactive), and then hitting the activate switch when you're ready to play it. Though the fact that the knobs "work while inactive" on the board's own sounds also has an unfortunate consequence, which brings me to...

 

Third, any knobs you move in an inactive section (i.e. to send MIDI volume or some other MIDI parameter to an external sound source) WILL affect the internal sound when you reactivate it. So let's say you use an Effect Rate knob to change the volume of an external sound when the effect section is inactive, maybe even fading it to minimum (0) or  boosting it to full (127). Then you reactivate the effect section... your effect rate on the internal sound has now likewise been changed to 0 or 127. 

 

Basically, this is not a simple-to-implement solution, nor one that can be used without thinking about the ramifications.

 

Using a pedal to control the volume of the external sound is probably the best approach, but if your external source consists of multiple sounds in multiple zones, it will not give you the independent control of the volumes of those zoned sounds that remapped knobs would.

[Morrissey]

Seeing a lot of pricing variability on the CP73 right now.  Several retailers advertising about 1800 USD instead of 2000.  Be sure to shop around/price match if you're in the market.

[Dockeys]

10 hours ago, Morrissey said:

Seeing a lot of pricing variability on the CP73 right now.  Several retailers advertising about 1800 USD instead of 2000.  Be sure to shop around/price match if you're in the market.

I got an email a few weeks ago from a European online shop saying Yamaha are increasing their prices at the start of April so buy now to save. I checked a few times since then and no change. Must have been just the shop trying to rush customers into a quick purchase. 
 

I have seen a few more b stock cp73 and 88 of late, very few YC models and both seem to be 8-12 weeks out if ordering new. 

[Dockeys]

In case anyone is looking for a soft case for the CP73 I picked up a second hand modx7 recently and it came with the Yamaha modx7 bag. It fits the CP perfectly. The padding isn’t as thick as I’d like it to be but it does the job. Also I wouldn’t recommend using the back straps as the CP73 is almost twice the weight of the modx7 so I’d be afraid the thing would snap while on my back. You also get a decent pocket for leads and pedals but no space for the CP73 music stand if you have one. 

 

I was also looking at the Vox Continental 73 softcase as an alternative. A reviewer on Amazon said his CP73 fits perfectly into it but the dimensions don’t seem to tally up for a snug fit?

 

 

[Noah DC]

Wonder if that MODX case would fit the Numa X Piano 73 when it comes out since it’s a similar size … was looking for a decent backpack strap case for it.

[Dockeys]

8 minutes ago, Noah DC said:

Wonder if that MODX case would fit the Numa X Piano 73 when it comes out since it’s a similar size … was looking for a decent backpack strap case for it.

It would probably fit it I’d say. I had the Numa X 73 for a few weeks and it’s about an inch shorter than the CP73 but a few kilos lighter.