Yamaha CP88 and 73 - Deserve their own thread

[AnotherScott]

CP73, S90XS and Montage 8 are having BHS action, which differs the weight of the keys (or counterweigh, or hammer weigh, not really sure) across the keybed (mostly in 3 or 4 group areas)

CP73 has BHS, while S90XS and Montage 8 have BHE. None differ the weight of the keys across the keybed. B stands for Balanced, which is Yamaha's term for same weight throughout. The ones that vary weight across the keybed are the actions that start with G, not B. The G stands for Graded. (I don't know how many groups any particular model has, I would be surprised if any had as few as 3... the lowest end model, GHS, has 4.)

 

I also know that on older/cheaper Yamaha Actions like GH/GHE/GHS on my Motif 8, the main sensor is triggered by the key and not by the hammer. The hammer exists for its weight and probably only for the release sensor (not sure on that).

And also if I'm not wrong, on the GH3 (three sensors) all sensors are on the hammer.

The majority of actions out there use the key to trigger the sensors. I'm pretty sure the GH3 falls into that category. Release sensors are also triggered by the keys, it's the same sensors (e.g. attack velocity is calculated from the time it takes to move from depressing a higher sensor to depressing the bottom one; release velocity is calculated based on the time it takes to un-press a lower one and then un-press the top one). Here's what a typical triple sensor looks like:

 

Does CP73 feels lighter than CP88?

Hmmm... my time on the CP88 was quite brief and not the same day I played the CP73... but the way I would put it (to the best of my recollection) is that the CP73 keys are lighter, but in a sense, they feel heavier. That is to say, with the power off, you'd say the CP73 keys feel lighter. But because of the different velocity curves, even with the CP73 set to "soft", as I mentioned earlier, I think I tended to play harder to try to get the response out of it that I wanted... so the "total force exerted" was probably more when I played the CP73 than when I played the CP88. Of course that's not exactly the same as saying the keys felt literally heavier, but if you have to play harder to get the same response, the end result in "finger fatigue" could be the same (or worse) on a light action you have to play hard as on a heavier action you can play more lightly. Well that's my theory, anyway. ;-)

[confidence]

Couldn't you just turn the volume up?

[AnotherScott]

Couldn't you just turn the volume up?

It's not just about volume, it's about tone. Easy example: Get the Rhodes to "bark."

[confidence]

Ah yes, that makes sense.

[keyboardologist]

The majority of actions out there use the key to trigger the sensors. I'm pretty sure the GH3 falls into that category.

 

I found this photo of the GH3, which shows that the sensors are on the hammer:

 

Thank tou AnotherScott for the info of the velocity curve which is also important for the rhodes' bark for me.

 

The CP73 is portable enough as a stage piano, so if feel/action is average or above, it's a good deal for its price and features.

 

Since it's the board that I'm mostly interested, I might give it a try after the lockdown period, although I can only find CP88 as a demo.

[AnotherScott]

Thanks for the correction on the GH3.

[ElmerJFudd]

Some googling for Velocity Curve Editors

 

VST

 

https://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Audio/Audio-Plugins/VelocityCurveSM.shtml

 

https://www.kvraudio.com/product/midicurve-by-insert-piz-here

 

In Logic Pro

 

In Ableton Live

 

MIDI Velocity Control in Reaper

[video:youtube]

 

Kontakt Instruments

 

Pianoteq - they've done a lot of downloadable custom curves for various controllers

https://www.modartt.com/velocity_curves

[drawback]

Thoughts on Grandstage dynamics knob.

 

If you can dial in a behavior that suits the sound you"ve called up (which is something we hope Korg has spent some time doing when they matched the sample library or patch to the action). But, if you can dial it in to taste - is this feature adjusting the velocity curve or is it adjusting the sound engine"s behavior? And does it translate to the MIDI output? Or does it only work on the internal sounds? Important point to know when using virtual pianos hosted on PC or other external MIDI connected device.

 

Some software instruments like Pianoteq, have their own velocity curve adjustment parameters editable within the virtual instrument as opposed to trying to dial it in on the keyboard controller. At one point there was also an effort to offer custom velocity curves for the Kawai VPC-1 with the Ravenscroft VST. I have to Google it, but I would imagine there are also software plugins that offer velocity curve adjustment in from within your DAW in real time. It may even be built into some DAWs or hosts like MainStage or Cantabile. Worth a look.

the dynamics knob adjusts the velocity curve and yes, it translates to the midi output...tested it with my laptop trying out various virtual pianos

 

The way the Grandstage dynamics knob works is new to me. I thought it was some kind of EQ/compression/contour control - never tried it with MIDI.

[AnotherScott]

I think the biggest attractions are-- it's something "new", the action was tighter

Sounds like someone's having a mid-life crisis.

[Manolios]

 

I think the biggest attractions are-- it's something "new", the action was tighter then my 7 year old CP4 and I felt the newer CFX would be more present in a live context.

)

 

 

Thanks for your answer. I hear you. In retrospective, I was blinded by the shiny new UI. Yeah, a bad case of GAS, I tried to gloss over the things I hated making heavy use of the Master-EQ and even buying a new monitor (Yamaha DXR10, which I love BTW, so there's at least something positive lol) , but in the end, I had to admit to myself, the CP88 is a whole different animal and maybe not the right one for me. In the CP4, there's warmth, there's âlife', there's more of everything. Absolutely NO comparison. And I'm not,only talking about the SCM-AP sounds, although still my 1st concern.

 

My mistake was to let go of the CP4, so my advice would be to try to keep them both for a while, if you should give in to your GAS for the CP88.

 

I'd like,to try a P515 someday, but right now I'm looking for a CP4 in good conditionâ¦

[ElmerJFudd]

A UI change is as good a reason as any to look at a new instrument or tool if you find it intuitive, requiring significantly fewer trips to the user"s manual. Most tactile interfaces with dedicated controls are also easier to remember. It"s been very successful for Nord. Hence, Yamaha"s rethinking of their typical approach.

[allan_evett]

A UI change is as good a reason as any to look at a new instrument or tool if you find it intuitive, requiring significantly fewer trips to the user"s manual. Most tactile interfaces with dedicated controls are also easier to remember. It"s been very successful for Nord. Hence, Yamaha"s rethinking of their typical approach.

 

I agree. The NS3 UI is one of the reasons it's become the go-to for most of my gigs. And Yamaha's 'rethink' adds a few different twists, yet leaves out some direct functions that Nord provides; but that's typical among manufacturers.

 

The UI that I'm starting to like a lot is that of the Fantom. Though the VA and FX sections are less 'knobby', there are practical functions for live use that go well beyond those of the YC and NS3. Keyboard Switch Groups (via the pads) and Scene Chains are a godsend. Granted, the NS3 does have Song Mode, but the Fantom's switch group function (within a Scene) is a huge time-saver for the stage.

[ElmerJFudd]

Nice, Dave. Great A/B setup.

The only thing I can think of is preference for your right of left ear.

 

Happy tinkling on the Yamaha digitals. Glad to hear your thoughts on them both.

 

There"s a 'Nashville' Yamaha that was added in the last firmware update as well. The upright has some charm too.

 

'The new Nashville C3 Voice offers players a vintage grand piano sound with the characteristic sounds of Nashville. The samples were processed using analogue tape at Yamaha Entertainment Group studios in order to create its vintage character.

 

The new CF3 Live Voice was added at players" request for the second characteristic sound of the Yamaha CP300 stage piano after the addition of the CFIII acoustic grand piano in the previous update. The CP300 is known for being able to cut through dense arrangements, with a bright, powerful sound. The Voice has been optimized for an even better presence in a mix and will be featured prominently in large line-ups.'

[AnotherScott]

Seeing the pic of both reminds me of the CP4 advantage of having a clear rear surface area, e.g. to rest the front of another board on.

 

I think I may have never given the CP4 its due because I was turned off by what I saw as it being a step down from its CP5 predecessor (though it had improvements as well). But the CP88 quickly sucked me in when I played it.

[ElmerJFudd]

A big improvement from CP-5 to CP-4 was dropping from 55.4 to 38.5lbs.

[BRW]

Still rockin' the CP5 here After 10 years (or is it actually more, wasn't it released in 2010?) it's starting to get to the point that I need to start thinking about upgrading.

 

I tried the CP88 but didn't like the action. I could probably get used to it, because when I initially tested the CP1/5 I thought the action was wayyy too soft. But having played on it for 10 years now, I'm so used to it.

 

I also tried Roland's RD-2000 but I've never really liked liked their PHA action at all. And Roland's pianos are always too bright, maybe good for pop but not great for jazz at all. Even their "jazz grand" patches.

 

Roland's Rhodes is good if you like that bright "Dyno" or Mark V type EP, but IMO theirs always sounds kind of fake. The CP Rhodes sounds great to my ears, ever since the Reface CP and CP4. The Rhodes in the CP1/5 was kind of plasticcy but by tweaking you could make it work, at least the so-called '75 and '78 models.

[AnotherScott]

A big improvement from CP-5 to CP-4 was dropping from 55.4 to 38.5lbs.

Yes, and the interface improvements were welcome as well. But I didn't like the action as much, and IIRC, they scaled back on the SCM functionality on the acoustic pianos.

 

I tried the CP88 but didn't like the action. I could probably get used to it, because when I initially tested the CP1/5 I thought the action was wayyy too soft. But having played on it for 10 years now, I'm so used to it.

I've always liked the lighter actions. And so I agree that, at least from memory (since they were played something like 10 years apart), I'd prefer the CP5 action to the CP88. But when I actually played the CP88, it did play nicely from its keys, even though I did find the lower area of keys in particular to feel heavier than I'd have preferred. I'd still consider it one of the better playing experiences I've had on any of the current boards I've played (plus I really like the interface/ergonomics). Unfortunately, Yamaha doesn't make hammer action keys that feel anything like that anymore (and similarly, Roland and Casio don't have hammer actions as light feeling as some they've had in the past either). And I agree with everything you've said about the current Rolands as well. For a light hammer action board today, I might look at the Kurzweil K2700 (or Forte or Forte 7, but not Forte SE). Also maybe Kawai MP7SE or Nord Grand, neither of which I've played.

[Art-0252]

It took a while for me to get used to the heavier action on my CP88 as well, but a month or so in I'm now loving the feel of the board. I also agree with BRW that the rhodes is quite good, and lies somewhere between my favorite Nord rhodes patches and Keyscape which is understandably better. I really like the organic but clean sound of the '74 Studio Rhodes Yamaha added more recently. Also I've been quite captivated with the sound of the U1 upright recently as well. For grand pianos, I almost always use the C7. It's got a really nice woody warmth that sounds almost as good as the Keyscape C7, but I have noticed that the CFX often cuts through the mix better when I'm playing with a full band. What are your favorites from the current offerings of CP voices?

[Kurt W]

I do somewhat prefer the CP4 action but not enough to warrant holding onto it. On the other hand, if it doesn't sell, it's not the worst thing in the world to have both. ð¹

Could it be that the CP4 is well broken in? The actions on the CP4 and CP88 should be identical except for the simulated texture of the key tops: https://yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/for-cfx-sample-users-aren-t-the-cp88-and-cp4-almost-identical

[AnotherScott]

I do somewhat prefer the CP4 action but not enough to warrant holding onto it. On the other hand, if it doesn't sell, it's not the worst thing in the world to have both. ð¹

Could it be that the CP4 is well broken in? The actions on the CP4 and CP88 should be identical except for the simulated texture of the key tops: https://yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/for-cfx-sample-users-aren-t-the-cp88-and-cp4-almost-identical

That link also says the CP88 feels a bit heavier. I'm not sure but I think it *might* feel a bit quicker on the return, too. But I played them years apart (and the CP4 *very* briefly) so I could easily be wrong. Any feedback there, Dave or anyone else?

[Kurt W]

Bad Mister is a Yamaha representative, his statement does not exclude that these actions are the same:

The new CP88 has NW-GH and the same triple sensors as in the CP4 STAGE, but the CP88 has textured keys ('Synthetic Ebony and Ivory Key Tops are lightly porous which adds grip to the keys.')

 

https://www.yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/cp88-keybed

[AnotherScott]

Bad Mister is a Yamaha representative, his statement does not exclude that these actions are the same

Blake is also a Yamaha representative, and at the link you included in your post #3107972, he says, "The CP88 action is an updated action with synthetic ivory and ebony key tops. That alone feels different, but the action itself feels just a touch heavier." But then again, even this kind of statement can be subjective. I think just the way the sound "connects" with the action can affect the perception of how heavy the keys feel. On the third hand, perception is reality. ;-)

[ElmerJFudd]

There"s always a danger when playing any digital that you put more energy into the action and don"t get back what you expect from an acoustic. You can get fatigued after an hour where you can play the acoustic hours on end without that happening. So, monitors and volume are really important and not forgetting you"re playing a digital help a lot. It"s very easy to forget on the Yamaha N3 or N3x. I find the CP88 action to be noticeably more piano-like than any other slab digital - it has some weight, a good feeling of swing with range of depth, and a wide velocity range. That said, it doesn"t have escapement and depending on the material from song to song - it may still require a tweak to the velocity curve being used.

 

Places to experiment with -

In the piano section, Yamaha has a quick adjuster Tone knob - it's a one knob operation to basically do a few EQ adjustments in one shot, the one's they find we most commonly do. Going to the right boosts lows and highs, going to the left pulls lows and highs back, so a less or more scooped shape. Master EQ over on the right can be turned on and off really quickly in a set list - it functions like most mixer channels do - low and high and a sweepable mid.

The TOUCH button, ( you can also get to it from the [MENU] button â 'General' â 'Keyboard/Pedal' â 'Touch Curve'). Yamaha offer Normal, Soft, Hard, Wide, and Fixed.

[AnotherScott]

I don't know if this has any significance at all, but Yamaha emphasizes how "fast" the CP88 action is (see https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/synthesizers/cp88_73/features.html ) -- something they did not promote with the CP4. Is it a subtle change to the design of the action? Or only a change to the marketing? I don't know. But just because an action is called the same thing doesn't mean it is identical. There have certainly been plenty of reports of GHS actions not all feeling the same, and only speculation about how much of this might come from different mounting in different chassis, different amount of break-in from more extensive playing, unit-to-unit manufacturing variation, or design changes over time that were not deemed significant enough to justify a new name (certainly the obvious change from glossy to matte keys would at least fall into that last category, but that may not have been the only manufacturing change, it could merely have been the most visible).

 

Dave, since you have both boards, it could be an interesting experiment to MIDI them up, and see if your feeling about how the sounds are connecting to the actions vary with which boards' sounds you play from which boards' action.

 

The "feeling dead" comment is interesting. When I played a CP73 and a CP88 (or maybe one was a YC, I don't remember), the 73 felt kinda dead to me... it was prompting me to "dig in" more, and I still wasn't getting the response I wanted. I didn't sense that at all on the 88. But also, this was solo playing, not a live band situation.

[1203]

I have the YC73 since several weeks next to my Nord Stage 2 and as much as i love the Rhodes â78 RD' sample on the Yamaha (better than all the Nord Rhodes, at least for my taste) i'm not so sure about the CFX. Unfortunately they did not add the CF3 sample to the YC's, like they did on the CP's, only the CF3'live' which i don't like. Did you try the CF3 on your CP88, @Dave Ferris?

[AnotherScott]

i love the Rhodes â78 RD' sample on the Yamaha (better than all the Nord Rhodes, at least for my taste)

My opinion is similarly that, with the new YC/CP models, Yamaha has surpassed Nord on the EP front.

[ChazKeys]

Well I agree the Rhodes are a step up from the Nord but I could not live with the action on the CP73 so I took a big hit and finally shifted on eBay. Maybe it was just down to Covid but it took months to shift. I think its a great form factor but apart from the P121, which I passed on to my son, there are very few 73 note weighted alternatives.

[M_G]

Ugh...I don't know about the CP88. It had its maiden voyage tonight-- Jazz Trio backing vocalist. And we played some tunes separate from the singer. Smokin' band, I was able to pick the bass player and drummer. Good listening and attentive audience, very gratifying night.

 

The CP88 sounded excellent as we were setting up. I was playing a bit and the bass player remarked...man that sounds amazing ! It was more clear then the CP4 as expected, when we were doing ballad or bossa type stuff. Really a pristine CFX sound, and gorgeous sustain -- very Jarrett-ish sounding. But..... when the intensity/volume rose, I wasn't getting the same type of feedback, or response in the sound to action connection I get on the CP4 when I dig in.

 

I can't really even verbalize what I was feeling except - and this is a knock - it reminded me of playing the old Kurzweil PC88. Yeah a bit harsh but it felt dead. It seemed the more I put into it, the less it gave back, if that makes any sense. I didn't change any of the default parameters, everything is stock. Again, the CP88 sounds great playing by itself, in comparison the CP4 is starting to sound a bit dated to my ears after the two weeks I've had this.

 

An aside -- I really wish I wouldn't have taken back the QSC K8.2s. They had a more in-your-face sound then my TT-08As, and way better dispersion. Maybe that's what I was missing, I don't know.

 

Technically, are the CP4 and CP88 actions identical ?

 

I have plenty of time to take it back but not sure where I'd go from that. I might consider switching gears to the Nord Piano 4/5 but I have a strong feeling that would be just going down another rabbit hole.

 

edit..ok re-reading the last couple posts by Scott and Kurt, it appears the actions are the same but there's a grey area where the perception might be different ? I mean the CP88 does not at all feel heavy to me.

 

 

When the sound was right at soundcheck, It looks more

like a monitoring/room problem than a keyboard problem....

 

I had the CP4 for about 4 years and now the CP88 and IMHO

the CP88 ist the much better board.

 

But indeed, the CFX Sample could sound a bit harsh depending

on the sound system. Sometimes I swittch over to the

C7 sample.

[AnotherScott]

Well I agree the Rhodes are a step up from the Nord but I could not live with the action on the CP73 so I took a big hit and finally shifted on eBay. Maybe it was just down to Covid but it took months to shift. I think its a great form factor but apart from the P121, which I passed on to my son, there are very few 73 note weighted alternatives.

Yeah... with covid and no opportunity to try it, I ordered the CP73, and returned it because I could not connect with that action. But I was later able to try the 88 in a store, and that's a whole other ball game. The better feeling 73 hammer actions are probably Korg SV2 (and I'm guessing Grandstage, though I've never played it), Forte 7, and Nord Piano 5. But they're all too heavy for me to carry around. If I must have something less wide than an 88 to play piano on at reasonable weight, I'll sacrifice the hammer action and go for one of the better semi-weighteds.

[ElmerJFudd]

Yet another example of assuming the 73k must be significantly lighter and cheaper than the 88 so it gets a lesser action. But sometimes the player just wants a shorter instrument but keep the better action. I think this is the case on the Forte 7, it maintains the same TP-40 as is used in the 88?