AnotherScott Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 I'm sure you will look cool onstage with it. Just not as cool as being onstage with a Fender Rhodes Mk1 Stage 73. Aesthetics are part of the equation, more so for some than others. But a Seven on stage looks a whole lot more like a Mk1 than a Forte does. I don't know whether anyone in the audience cares, but there are players who take their portable rig and "hide" the boards in a cabinet that looks like it could be a classic Hammond (one of Jethro Tull's keyboardIsts used to do that). I recently saw a Steely Dan cover band, where the guy played Rhodes sounds for a good 90% of the show (an occasional acoustic piano or organ sound). He was using a Roland RD700NX or similar, and I did think how much cooler and more "authentic to the material" his presentation would be if he were playing the Seven. Though he wouldn't have had the organ sound for the one or two songs he used it. ;-) Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adan Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Most keyboard rigs are just plain ugly, especially any two-tiered thing. I think we train ourselves to believe that this doesn't matter, and that what really matters is whether your keyboard achieves 98% authenticity with an actual Rhodes, as opposed to the 93% of the keyboard you used to own, etc. I'm inclined to think we as keyboardists tend to have too much of a cognitive bias in that direction, that is, we place too much emphasis on what the recorded track will sound like and tend to discount too much how our visual presentation affects what the audience is experiencing in the moment. I recently saw Maceo Parker and his longtime keys guy was playing backlined rig of a Nord Stage over a Yamaha workstation thing. Of course he could wring great sounds out of it -- dude is a monster -- but for me it was not the same as seeing him behind a real Hammond, and I think the audience felt the same way though maybe they would have a harder time articulating it. Of course it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. A rig can look elegant and still get you into the high 90th percentiles of whatever your ideal rig should sound like. For me, as time goes by, I feel more disinclined to have a keyboard rig that's just a couple tiered slabs. This is one reason why I'm gravitating towards giging with my Prologe atop my Mojo using the Tonysounds mod'ed onstage stand. It's got a certain compact elegance to it. Quote Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro Home: Vintage Vibe 64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 I'm inclined to think we as keyboardists tend to have too much of a cognitive bias in that direction, that is, we place too much emphasis on what the recorded track will sound like and tend to discount too much how our visual presentation affects what the audience is experiencing in the moment. I recently saw Maceo Parker and his longtime keys guy was playing backlined rig of a Nord Stage over a Yamaha workstation thing. Of course he could wring great sounds out of it -- dude is a monster -- but for me it was not the same as seeing him behind a real Hammond, and I think the audience felt the same way though maybe they would have a harder time articulating it. Yes, it's a really interesting question. Visuals matter, but even sound aside, I really do wonder how many non-musicians in the audience will experience the show in a more positive way if you're playing a B3 than if you're playing a Nord or a VR-09 or whatever on an X-stand. There are definitely some non-players who are really into the music and know the gear, but what percentage of the audience is this? Does it help if the stuff merely looks "vintage" rather than modern, regardless of someone's knowledge/understanding of the actual gear? Or if it simply looks more "substantial"? Or for most people, does none of it make a whit of difference? Does it matter more if the keyboard player is also doing lead vocals (and so is more a visual focus of the band than usual)? Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawback Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 I did a show once where someone asked "what was that clarinet thing?" I was playing a Melodica. I think most non-players know what a B3 looks like but need that visual cue to tell them the sound of the music, and the musician, could be authentic. When Guido, Andrea and the folks at Crumar design their products, aesthetics are a huge factor. As I posted early on, Seven looks like a musical instrument. I can't say that about most boards these days, and as great as Forte7 or Nords sound, thinking of them as musical instruments, in my mind anyway, is a stretch. Quote ____________________________________ Rod Here for the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adan Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Does it help if the stuff merely looks "vintage" rather than modern, regardless of someone's knowledge/understanding of the actual gear? Or if it simply looks more "substantial"? Or for most people, does none of it make a whit of difference? Absent some kind of controlled study that will never happen, we can only speculate, and it's difficult for us to speculate objectively because we bring our bias of knowing too much. But I don't think it's a stretch to believe that the Benmont Tench's full-on vintage rig added something to the audience's enjoyment. This all goes to the question of, if the end goal is entertaining the audience, is there some tangible worth in rig that achieves some degree of visual elegance by sitting a keyboard on top of a Seven? I think so. Maybe it's not huge, but it's not zero. Quote Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro Home: Vintage Vibe 64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanL Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 that was the modeled piano. Max's video here of the modeled piano sounds much better than the demos posted a few weeks ago. Now they sound legit. Now there is no reason for anyone to hesitate on dropping the coin for the Seven. And no, I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid. If I is was I'd be playing a Casio PX5 or Forte with a Legend Live running through a Ventilator amped up by a Spacestation. That's the Kool-Aid Man's rig. And a couple lounsberry pedals, those are needed to make the most "authentic" organs sound more "authentic"! Quote Live: Korg Kronos 2 88, Nord Electro 5d Nord Lead A1 Toys: Roland FA08, Novation Ultranova, Moog LP, Roland SP-404SX, Roland JX10,Emu MK6 www.bksband.com www.echoesrocks.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoooombiex Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Crumar v. Nord EPs is no contest. Crumar houses the Nord. The SV-1 is better than the Nord. As a package the Nord Electro is solid but the EP's are not it's strong suit. Jack of all trades and all that. Just kidding. But not really. I came out the other way on the non-contest. Not trashing Mojo's EP's. But you say it like it's a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MojoGuyPan Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Adan's absolutely right about the way boards look on stage. I hadn't really thought about it but it affects my enjoyment of the music. I see a lot of jazz and when someone plays a real piano, a Rhodes or a B3 there is a certain amount of gravitas there. A few times I went to jazz clubs and cats in a quartet were playing something like a Montage on an X-stand and it just flat out looked stupid. They had a Yamaha baby grand in back of them but they played this dinky board on an X-stand. The dudes could play and I know they were using it to mix up the sounds they'd play EP on some tunes and strings on others but to stick with the Montage for APs was sad when you've got the real thing right next to you. The whole show I'm thinking the dude should've left his board in the car and just played the baby rand all night, screw the other sounds. It's so true. When I see videos of the band playing and I've got the two tiered X-stand I cringe. It just looks retarded. I've played a lot of restaurants with a stage piano and have seen the photos. It's like being caught riding a moped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffincltnc Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 A few times I went to jazz clubs and cats in a quartet were playing something like a Montage on an X-stand and it just flat out looked stupid. I saw Chick Corea doing this. He didn't look stupid. Quote Yamaha U1 Upright, Roland Fantom 8, Nord Stage 4 HA73, Nord Wave 2, Korg Nautilus 73, Viscount Legend Live, Lots of Mainstage/VST Libraries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wd8dky Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 We saw Elton John back around ~1990, sitting at a Roland DP of some sort, front and center on the stage in front of his usual band. It was NOT in a piano shell, just on a stand. I didn't hear anyone complaining (quite the opposite). Quote http://www.weisersound.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doerfler Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 A few times I went to jazz clubs and cats in a quartet were playing something like a Montage on an X-stand and it just flat out looked stupid. I saw Chick Corea doing this. He didn't look stupid. Chick toured a Montage recently with Steve Gadd on drums. In this video one can see the Minimoog Voyager on an X stand over his Montage. Stupid, stupid, stupid. [video:youtube] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffincltnc Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Chick toured a Montage recently with Steve Gadd on drums. In this video one can see the Minimoog Voyager on an X stand over his Montage. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Well, I guess it's better for Chick Corea to "look stupid" than to play the "Kool Aid Man's Rig", I suppose. Next I'm waiting for MojoGuyPan to tell us all how Herbie Hancock is a hack player for using a keytar in his show. Quote Yamaha U1 Upright, Roland Fantom 8, Nord Stage 4 HA73, Nord Wave 2, Korg Nautilus 73, Viscount Legend Live, Lots of Mainstage/VST Libraries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomKittel Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 another Wurlitzer demo [video:youtube] Nice playing. But to my ears the Crumar Wurli doesn't sound overly authentic in this video. Quote LIFE IS SHORT, GO GET THE GEAR YOU WANT ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanL Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 A few times I went to jazz clubs and cats in a quartet were playing something like a Montage on an X-stand and it just flat out looked stupid. I saw Chick Corea doing this. He didn't look stupid. Chick toured a Montage recently with Steve Gadd on drums. In this video one can see the Minimoog Voyager on an X stand over his Montage. Stupid, stupid, stupid. [video:youtube] Oh the humanity! Quote Live: Korg Kronos 2 88, Nord Electro 5d Nord Lead A1 Toys: Roland FA08, Novation Ultranova, Moog LP, Roland SP-404SX, Roland JX10,Emu MK6 www.bksband.com www.echoesrocks.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanL Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 A A few times I went to jazz clubs and cats in a quartet were playing something like a Montage on an X-stand and it just flat out looked stupid. They had a Yamaha baby grand in back of them but they played this dinky board on an X-stand. Maybe the piano was a piece of crap? Quote Live: Korg Kronos 2 88, Nord Electro 5d Nord Lead A1 Toys: Roland FA08, Novation Ultranova, Moog LP, Roland SP-404SX, Roland JX10,Emu MK6 www.bksband.com www.echoesrocks.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 A A few times I went to jazz clubs and cats in a quartet were playing something like a Montage on an X-stand and it just flat out looked stupid. They had a Yamaha baby grand in back of them but they played this dinky board on an X-stand. Maybe the piano was a piece of crap? Or not mic'd up, and so not suitable for electric ensemble playing? Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MojoGuyPan Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 The pianos were well maintained. These were at high end jazz clubs out here not dive bars. Also was Corea really playing APs on the Montage? I saw him a couple years ago and he bounced back and forth between a real piano and the Motif but he only play EP on the Motif. Same with Hancock, saw him last fall and he used his Kronos for synth sounds but played piano on his giant Fazioli. He didn't play AP's on his Kronos or through the keytar. Okay so now you guys are drinking the X-stand Kool-Aid. I know you're not really. Why would we have that guy who built the B3 style shell for his boards, effects and power supplies. Why would Billy Joel and Elton John be playing digital pianos in grand shells. Why would there be a million anti-X-Stand threads here. Sven's probably got them tallied up somewhere. Why would Murphy Dunne cover his Rhodes in shag? Let's stop be contrarian here. A slab on an X is visually weak. The Seven looks a hell of a lot better and more substantial than a Numa Stage on an X (my current anti Kool-Aid piano rig). Weak aesthetics are why everyone thinks the guitarists are "cool" and the keyboard players are "nerds". It's fact. Back in the day, Jerry Lee Lewis and Thelonious Monk were cool, they played real pianos. Do you really think Jerry Lee Lewis banging out Shaking on a Numa Nano on the Steve Allen Show would've had the same impact? or Monk having Basie stare him down from the back side of a Privia would've been as sweet. Let's get real. These tiny boards are playable and sound great but do nothing for our image. I want to thank Guido for thinking not only of the sounds and playability but the style as well. The Mojo and 61 look really nice and the Seven is a homerun in the looks department. The dude's a genius. I offer you this comparative visual, I think we all know which setup is cooler. http://notinhalloffame.s3.amazonaws.com/images/Fictitous_Rock/Murph_and_the_Magic_Tones.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowboyNQ Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Of course all this discussion about what makes an aesthetically pleasing keyboard rig hinges on the supposition that anyone actually looks at the keyboard player... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Of course all this discussion about what makes an aesthetically pleasing keyboard rig hinges on the supposition that anyone actually looks at the keyboard player... Yup, which is why I mentioned it could matter more f the keyboard player is the singer! Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffincltnc Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Jordan Rudess playing AP with a Kronos on an X-stand with a couple of other slabs on tiers didn't look stupid when I saw him. Quote Yamaha U1 Upright, Roland Fantom 8, Nord Stage 4 HA73, Nord Wave 2, Korg Nautilus 73, Viscount Legend Live, Lots of Mainstage/VST Libraries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigmeat Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Mac doesn't look as cool behind a Nord. At least he's not standing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkost2002 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Mac would look cool behind ANY keyboard, and more imporatantly, SOUND GREAT behind anything! As far as keyboard players looking not so great but still sounding amazing, look at some of the 77-82 keytar rigs of Jan Hammer when he was in his rock god phase. (And I LOVE Jans artistry and innovations 71-77) Quote "I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.� Robert Bosch, 1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 The fact that someone can look cool behind an X-Stand doesn't mean everyone can look cool behind an X-stand. See: Keytars. Quote Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffincltnc Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 The fact that someone can look cool behind an X-Stand doesn't mean everyone can look cool behind an X-stand. See: Keytars. I'd still rather look stupid with an X-stand and my "Kool Aid Man" rig than play a TP/100 action. Quote Yamaha U1 Upright, Roland Fantom 8, Nord Stage 4 HA73, Nord Wave 2, Korg Nautilus 73, Viscount Legend Live, Lots of Mainstage/VST Libraries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkost2002 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 The fact that someone can look cool behind an X-Stand doesn't mean everyone can look cool behind an X-stand. See: Keytars. I'd still rather look stupid with an X-stand and my "Kool Aid Man" rig than play a TP/100 action. Hahaha! Jeff, I hear you! I guess Pat Bianchi, Jim Alfredson and Akiko Tsuruga have Kool-Aid Man rigs, too!! Lolololololol! Quote "I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.� Robert Bosch, 1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoooombiex Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Weak aesthetics are why everyone thinks the guitarists are "cool" and the keyboard players are "nerds". It's fact. Can't tell if serious But it's not fact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Paxton Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 I'm moderately impressed that this thread took several pages longer to devolve into yet another rehash of the x-stand debate than I predicted it would once I saw what the Seven looked like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider76 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 The problem is that the Seven has its own legs, so it took a while to sneak an X-stand into the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adan Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 People are arguing against positions no one has taken. No one has said you should buy a Seven because it looks cool even if you don't like the sound or the action. No one has argued that audiences will be asking for their money back if they see Chick Corea or Dr. John playing off an X-Stand. Since this is thread about a keyboard that stands on its own legs and, in part because of that, presents a different sort of look, it's fair and relevant to talk about to what extent that matters. But at the end of the day, it's subjective and personal even moreso than all the other subjective and personal stuff we discuss on this forum. Quote Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro Home: Vintage Vibe 64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 I offer you this comparative visual, I think we all know which setup is cooler. http://notinhalloffame.s3.amazonaws.com/images/Fictitous_Rock/Murph_and_the_Magic_Tones.jpg The "cooler" one is the lounge act playing cheesy lounge music? You're a riot, dude. (Don't tell me how good those players were, I know who they were, they were damned good, and they were playing music that was way below them, which was the point of the scene.) There are times when I see someone playing a DP when I think they should be using an AP, but I forget once they start playing and they're any good. If they are, I forget all about the board and focus on the music. Quote "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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