Space constraints on gigs especially bars so frustrating

[Alkeys]

Hi guys- I wanted to share my frustration and see if anyone else feels the same.

 

I've been gigging for years but sometimes in certain bars that I'm asked to play in, they all have a really small stage or no stage and by the time the band has spread out, there always seems like there isn't much room for keys. I play in a band with 1 guitar player (2x12 cab),bass player (4x10 cab) and drums (normal size 5 piece kit) stage always seems kind of small and I'm always feeling cramped.

 

Over the years I've tried to make my rig as small as possible.

I have a compact Quiklok WS-540 stand with a Roland A-37 (76 keys). My soundsource/rack is a very small 4 space effects rack that sits on top of a very small powered 1x10 speaker cab. That's pretty damn small and as light as it gets. In my mind a very modest and humble setup- no capes or multitier stands here. Sometimes, I feel like I would love to play a lead synth on top of my A-37 but I don't have enough room for a 2nd keyboard on stage.

 

How do you guys just survive with 1 board? Sometimes i want an analog lead and would love to have a Minimoog Model D in there but struggle to find room on stage.

 

I've been thinking about getting a small tabletop analog to place on top of my 4 space rack which sits to my left. I'm thinking either a Boomstar or a Pulse 2 or even a Prophet 6 desktop module.

 

Anyone else have space constraints gigging? Does anyone else just use 1 keyboard but wish they had space for 2 on stage?

 

I am thankful the A37 has 2 independent Midi Outputs- I use 1 for a Motif Rack and could use the other for a lead synth desktop module. One of the main reasons I use the A37 is because it is lightweight and has 2 midi outputs. It's getting old and I don't ever see controllers with 2 midi outs anymore.

 

I really enjoy the experience of playing live with my friends and although I could have tons more room for gear in the studio, it's the stage that I care about.

 

Every time I think of getting something like a Model D, I think about how many times I've had to cram into a corner with my already small setup and it holds me back from opening my wallet. Anyone else feel me at all? How do you approach these types of things? Thank you all you are all a great help.

 

[timwat]

Hey man, it sucks to feel frustrated with rig. I'm not sure how adding a 2nd tier keyboard takes up any more stage space, if you're adding vertically. Maybe I'm not understanding it? I've gigged two boards for years, vertically stacked and it doesn't take up any more stage footprint than one board.

 

As far as room on the stage, I look at it like this. I'm an essential part of the band. I deserve the room I need to comfortably set up my rig. The reason you hired me is I sound awesome, the audience will love me, and I'm going to be the best part of whatever goes on tonight. So give me the share of stage I need, and I promise I won't be a selfish a** about it. If that doesn't work for you, don't hire me.

 

That's my attitude and approach. I'm never a butt about it verbally, but here's the thing. I never apologize for bringing the rig I want to play, and I never beg for more room or ask anyone, "Please forgive me, could you move that cymbal stand". I need sufficient space, and you need to understand that, just as I understand the drummer needs space and I'm going to work with him on that. After all, we're all professionals here.

 

I don't know if that helps you much, but I find myself on postage-stamp stages from time to time as well. We all cram in as much as we can, but it's never a fight with any of the other players on stage.

[The Real MC]

You're not the only one... none of the venues in close proximity from where I live have the room for a group larger than four people. There's isn't room for a fifth member even with a compact setup.

 

Auditioned for a couple of local bands here. They really liked my playing and I would had been the fifth member... ooops where do they put me?

 

Really frustrating. I'm about ready to start my own group playing 80s synth stuff, and there isn't going to be a guitar player, bass player, or drummer in the group. I might consider a guitar player if he can share the lead singing duties and his/her playing style is R&B and not overdriven crunch.

[Mighty Ferguson]

It seems like this is always an issue for any band larger than 2-3 people. Bars and restaurants that have bands never seem to dedicate enough room for a stage. One of the rooms we play is your typical Bar and Grill type venue, except it's brand new - only a few months old and they put quite a bit of money into building a stage, putting in a house PA, lights, hired a sound person for Friday and Saturday nights, etc. They still made the stage too small. I'm guessing to fit more tables in the place.

 

It also seems like there's a correlation between the music and the quality of the venue. At least where I am in MA/NH, it seems like most of the places looking for cover bands fit the description above, and the places that feature bands playing original music have better stages and the venue is more dedicated to music vs the bar/restaurant part. At least that's my impression.

[AnotherScott]

I don't ever see controllers with 2 midi outs anymore.

You can always velcro a little thru box to whatever board you want.

 

I'm not sure how adding a 2nd tier keyboard takes up any more stage space, if you're adding vertically. Maybe I'm not understanding it? I've gigged two boards for years, vertically stacked and it doesn't take up any more stage footprint than one board.

Depth generally increases.

 

Auditioned for a couple of local bands here. They really liked my playing and I would had been the fifth member... ooops where do they put me?

Smallest rig would be a strap-on board (keytar), with internal sounds and/or driving something like an iPad , with the sound being sent back to you through the monitors (or maybe an in-ear system). It can be done...

 

[timwat]

I suppose that depends on the stand - K&M Baby Spider Pro, adding my Nord Wave above Kronos increases necessary effective depth by 4 - 6 inches.

 

Keytar only makes it challenging to remain a two-handed player - not impossible, but a definite challenge.

 

Reading these comments makes I feel very fortunate and grateful for the situations I've got.

[rockinredeye]

Your Quiklok WS-540 doesn't seem to have a way to add a second tier. It's easy for me to spend your money, but, like Timwat said, vertical might be a way to add a board. Consider another type of stand? A 4U case fits under my stand by my left knee, but it's just an amp that I don't need to access much. Honestly, I don't think your setup could be much smaller. You should reconsider that cape and add an electric cattle prod disguised as your scepter to make the other players move over a bit. Zap! Oww!

[CEB]

Just like Tim says, one board or three boards my pretty much the same footprint is the same. I just use more stackers on my K&M stand.

 

I don't really have space contraints because I show up before anyone else and setup. My only space issues is that there are nights I can't tear down until the rest of the bands tears down first. I need room to case the boards. This is what makes the Qik-Lok Monolith so nice. You can walk straight through the stand.

[AnotherScott]

a really small stage

 

When this has happened to me, I have sometimes set up on the floor. Other times, the drummer and I stayed on the stage and the guitarists/singers lined up on the floor in front of the stage.

[Outkaster]

I have it in a rider that we need a certain space. I have 6 people, two keyboard rigs, singer, bass, drummer and guitar player. I tell my agent don't bother booking if we can't fit.. It's that simple. For awhile I went against that policy and played some small rooms. It turned out bad for the band and had people at each others throats as the load ins and out were a pain in the ass. One venue that actually had a nice vibe was terrible for us and a few members ended up hating it logistically. Parking was terrible also so I dropped it recently. Why end up frustrated at a gig?...it might mean you play less but trust me make it easy on yourself.

[vonnor]

Small stages around my area too. I've seen bands where everybody used in-ears, both guitar and bass ran direct off their pedalboards (no cabinets), and even where the drummer used a trapKAT. I think the whole band has to be on the same page regarding space issues and necessary compromises. Unfortunately, most are not.

 

Since I started gigging again, I am constantly thinking about how to minimise (or to paraphrase Tim, "essentialize") my setup. Moving toward soft-synth subs for all my sounds, and a couple of compact controller-61's. That'll get me down to 3x3 ft on stage. That's about as tight as I can go and still cover my parts.

 

~ vonnor

[WesG]

Guitar and bass are using larger than necessary rigs, you are spending money to shrink an already compact rig and don't have enough room?

 

Either set up on the dance floor or veto the venue.

 

Outkaster is right, playing the wrong gig for the band is no good for anyone.

[MotiDave]

If I don't know the venue has a large (enough) stage, I am sure to get their early and get my rig up. Its always easier of the rest of the band hasn't already set up, nobody wants to move their gear even if they want to be nice and do whats best.

 

I've played only one 76 for the last 4+ years. I make do with what I can, there are bits I have to leave out even with voice switching etc but I really try to avoid adding a second board. If I were ambitious like you, I don't see how adding a second board on top vertically will really change your footprint more than an inch or so either, especially if the new top board is smaller than a 76? Add a light 61 and you won't even notice its there

 

 

[Alkeys]

Thanks for all your replies. Yes I've made it the holy grail quest to make my rig small and light over the years. Started out lots bigger 20 years ago then got progressively smaller over the years. My rig has been the same since about 2003. About my stand, the WS540 has a super small footprint-it disappears under my keyboard and is smaller than a standard 1 tier folding xstand

 

 

Yeah it sucks cuz all the guys I grew up with are guitar players, rock and roll is largely guitar oriented music and I love the sound of guitar as much as keyboard and I always end up playing in either a hard rock, reggae or pop cover band, so I'm not hating on guitars by any means. Sometimes I wished I played guitar instead. Anyway, more and more these days I'm feeling non-essential. Not because the guys in the band make me feel that way, but the music. Sometimes I end up just going to see my friends play at these small venues. I always feel like keyboards are the icing on the cape, part of the rhythm section and the cherry on top-an accompaniment instrument like they can live without the keyboards. I don't know how many times I hear- "Dude you should play with us! Bring down your rig!" and then I go nah where would I set up? I end up more and more just going to see my friends play, I look at the stage from the barstool and say to myself- Man I couldn't even fit up there and by the way you guys sound great without me. Then I listen to their cover of B-52s Groove is in the Heart, a Sublime cover or Red Hot Chili Peppers cover they are doing and go man what the hell could I add to that without being completely in the way anyway and sticking out like a sore thumb musically??? There's not even keyboards in that music on the original recording. All my friends wonder why I don't play live anymore and it's because there's no more room on stage or in the song. ****sigh**** Guess I'm in a rut and not feeling inspired.

[AnotherScott]

a couple of compact controller-61's. That'll get me down to 3x3 ft on stage. That's about as tight as I can go and still cover my parts.

That's an interesting alternative... with the right stand, two small boards could possibly take up less total stage space than the OP's A37, if one is willing to accept a smaller piano span. And actually, when space is tight, width is usually the most limiting factor.

 

Sticking with 76 keys, the Kurzweil Artis7 would buy him about 4 1/2" of width (the SP4-7 is smaller overall, but a bit wider)... it's got nice internal sounds and also functions well as a MIDI controller, though it's not cheap like a plain controller would typically be. Go for fewer than 76 keys, and you can save more width. An Arturia Keylab 61 would be 12 1/2" less wide than the A37.

 

I have some small boards I like for what they are, like the Yamaha MX49, Korg Microstation, Micro-Korg.... I could probably get through a gig with any two of those, if the need for real piano playing was minimal...

[B3bluesman59]

They still made the stage too small. I'm guessing to fit more tables in the place.

_________________________________________________________________

Your guess is correct. $$$$$$$$$$ rule.

 

[aronnelson]

Yes, as everyone has said, vertical is the way to go. For me, space is sometimes an issue, but what I dislike is lack of space to store cases etc... Like you said, when it's cramped, it's hard to setup, things get hit, mistakes happen.

Another thing I dislike is the single high step before you get in the bar or the stairs before the stage - all lifting. Just high enough to make the cart painful to lift.

[richforman]

I don't let anything like that bother me at all. Playing on small cramped stages is part of the gigging business, comes with the territory. Often I'm fortunate enough to play venues with larger stages, sound systems, good crowds, and sometimes it's a dive with no p.a., hardly anybody there and a tiny stage or none at all. In those cases I'm still glad to have a gig, glad to be a musician and have friends to play with, glad to be out and about!, and I'll do what I have to to make it work, if it means playing backed against the wall or scaling down my rig that night, or being invisible hidden back in the corner, I am many years past the point of that being able to bother me, it's still fun and a blessing, better than sitting home that's for sure, and it doesn't affect my frame of mind at all. I do agree that it's a drag to play in a band where the music has no room or need for keyboards, so I do avoid that situation up front.

[OB Dave]

Ha, tell me about it. Did a sub gig last night and there was no room for the Leslie. (OK if that isn't a first world problem, I don't know what it.) This is my little pancake leslie, and I ended up putting it offstage on top of one of the subwoofers sidestage and it worked out great. Put the horns up just above ear level while seated.

 

Fortunately my weekly gig has a nice big stage and in fact they recently expanded it.

 

Which reminds me of another issue: stages that are too big. I've been in a few bands that tend to scatter like cockroaches when presented with a huge stage. I prefer a tight formation no matter the stage size. It's too easy to lose the connection if everyone's 20 feet apart.

[cphollis]

Hah. Interesting story.

 

I had one band where the bandleader (guitarist/vocalist) just didn't get the whole minimum space thing. No matter how much me and the drummer bugged him, his standard answer was "don't worry, we'll all fit". And we had a few tetris-like gigs that were mighty uncomfortable as a result.

 

So the drummer and I started arriving early and setting up our stuff way ahead of the guitarists and vocalists. We didn't intentionally hog space, we just made sure we had enough room to be comfortable.

 

The guitarists and vocalists would show up later, and quickly discover there was almost no room for amps, mic stands or monitors. No, we can't move our drums and keyboards.

 

"Hey guys, don't worry, we'll all fit -- remember?"

 

Problem solved.

[HammondDave]

Simple solution: Get that left hand working and fire the bass player. Done.

[Alkeys]

Haha all good points. I think I'll just avoid the Top 40 covers gigs with Groove is in the Heart and Sublime and all that garbage that has no keyboards in it anyways. I'm all for less is more but playing songs that don't have a need for keyboards is a waste of time for sure.

 

As far as space constraints, I'm going to experiment adding a little tabletop unit as another box o sounds instead of a whole 2nd keyboard.

 

I'll just try to focus on the gig. Thanks for all everyone's input.

[Alkeys]

On a related note to space, it's hard to have 1 keyboard do everything! Quite the challenge! Good Rhodes, Pianos, Organs- that's pretty easy with 1 board but then to do analog leads on the same board- well that's where I have to look to another piece of gear-either one more keyboard for leads or the tabletop midi'd to my 1 keyboard controller. Tried to use romplers for leads and no matter how expensive and newfangled the piece of gear is I still get the aliasing in the higher registers especially noticeable upon pitch-bending and I just can't live with 1 rompler to do it all.

[aronnelson]

The Kronos does all of that. The analogs leads are great. The PC361 can do it as well.

[Aidan]

Pedants corner: Groove is in the Heart is by Deee-lite, not the B52s

 

As for tight spaces, I'd like to introduce you to the Great British Pub. Aargh!

[DulceLabs.com]

If you can get the venue to play along, getting a couple of portable stage risers for the lead singer and guitar player may be a work around. Thrust them forward where they want to be anyway.

[AnotherScott]

On a related note to space, it's hard to have 1 keyboard do everything! Quite the challenge! Good Rhodes, Pianos, Organs- that's pretty easy with 1 board but then to do analog leads on the same board- well that's where I have to look to another piece of gear-either one more keyboard for leads or the tabletop midi'd to my 1 keyboard controller. Tried to use romplers for leads and no matter how expensive and newfangled the piece of gear is I still get the aliasing in the higher registers especially noticeable upon pitch-bending and I just can't live with 1 rompler to do it all.

As aronnelson basically said, some romplers do have separate VA tech in them. Though since you're using an A37, all your sounds are located elsewhere, so I guess the issue isn't that you can't do it all in one board, but in whatever is in your rack! And honestly, even your initial premise about getting good pianos and organs in the same board isn't a no-brainer either, as it seems the very best organ boards rarely have the best pianos and vice versa. So really, whether it's piano, organ, or synth, a lot of it comes down to where you draw the line for "good enough."

 

Anyway, if you can cobble together a convenient way to place it, the MicroKorg is cheap, sounds good, and won't noticeably increase the size of your rig, and you can play it from its own minikeys when that's more convenient, or drive it from your A37 when you want to play it from full-size keys. There are other similar options.

[MotiDave]

Haha all good points. I think I'll just avoid the Top 40 covers gigs with Groove is in the Heart and Sublime and all that garbage that has no keyboards in it anyways. I'm all for less is more but playing songs that don't have a need for keyboards is a waste of time for sure.

 

As far as space constraints, I'm going to experiment adding a little tabletop unit as another box o sounds instead of a whole 2nd keyboard.

 

I'll just try to focus on the gig. Thanks for all everyone's input.

 

I used to hate when songs would come up that had no keys, felt unnecessary or whatever. Now I don't mind at all, I ask them to group two back to back and I jump off stage and wade into the crowd. Can be fun.

[CEB]

Kronos does everything great if you have a basic understanding of righteous tweakage.

[sherry]

Playing this weekend with just Kronos 61 because of stage real estate. I HATE it, but up side is easy to set up/tear down.