Thinking of replacing my trusty old Yamaha S90ES

[Jefsong]

I recently had a few sticking keys on my s90ES. I took it into the shop figuring it would just need a couple of quick key replacements and instead I learned the my "keybed" was cracked and to replace it would cost me around $700! So, I could pay and fix it OR I thought maybe it was time to take that $700 and invest in a newer bottom tier board. So here's my dilema. I am looking at a budget of around $2000 (or less preferably). I was looking at the Kurzweil Artis 88, Roland FA08, Yamaha MOXF8 and Kawai MP7. All of these have decent piano sounds (although I tend to be partial to Yamaha for piano). My concern is which one will be a good controller and have decent brass & synth sounds etc. My current rig is an s90ES and a SK2 on top. I use the bottom manual on the SK2 to trigger various sounds from the s90ES while keeping a piano or rhodes on the bottom in MASTER mode.

 

I am wondering if anyone has experience with any of these keyboards in a similar scenario?

[eric]

Since you like the S90ES so much, why not get the S90XS? That would be an easier transition. Although it is getting a bit old (not sure if still sold new). I used the S90 Classic for years and ultimately moved to the S70XS, but that has been a few years back.

 

I also think you'd be happy with the Yamaha MOXF8.

[CEB]

Preface: I put a lot of emphasis on the action.

 

The S90XS is still available new. I'm not sure if it is an upgrade over the ES. I have the XS and like it but I thought the stock S6 pianos sounded like ass. It took a while to get the pianos right. The pianos on the ES were great.

 

With a $2000 budget the best option is the MP7. Good 4 zone controller And great action and a solid sound set. FA-8 has some nice features and a great sound library. MOXF8 is cool also decent action and great sounds.

 

A New S90XS is over your budget. It is a great action with some great synth sounds but the pianos are weaker than the ES. IMO.

 

PS I have no experience with the Artis but the layout looks great and the demos sound very good but I have no clue about the action.

[Jefsong]

Yes. I agree the newer S90XS piano are not as good (that's why I didn't consider it). I really like the MP7 but was concerned about it's controller abilities & multi-timbral funtions...same with the Kurzweil Artis

[CEB]

The MP7 is a pretty strong 4 zone controller. I would download the manual. It's weakness is patch control but I have been spoiled rotten by the Kronos. At least with the MOXF8 you have Master Mode. I know nothing about the Artis but the control deck looks promising.

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Firstly I'm surprised anything major happened to your S90ES, it's a bloody tank and I know it all too well and yes, it sounds really good on lots of styles. Plus the Yamaha remote mode works nicely as a controller for Cubase, Logic, and Digital Performer if any of those are your DAW.

 

If you already know the Yamaha user interface and you dig their pianos, no reason not to check out the S90XS and MOXF8 in your price range. Sure you can take a look at the MP7. You might like the Kawai action, but IMHO it's not as potent in all the sound categories. On the other hand, if you're an acoustic and electric piano player on your first tier keyboard you might be pleasantly surprised with the Kawai. And if that really is the case you might also save yourself some cash and some weight on the Casio PX-5S or 560 or the Yamaha P255 if speakers on board are desirable. And if that's the case, the Kawai ES8 is lovely to play, but it's certainly not any lighter. Lastly, CP-4 checks a lot of boxes, but isn't as robust as the S90XS or MOXF8. But it is lighter.

[Dave Ferris]

I've had two friends now- one in STL and one in Nashville- that both had used the 90XS since it came out. One liked it, the other loved it. Both were tired of the schlep though.

 

I recommended the CP4 , as they both were more just piano players with occasional Wurli and Rhodes use. They didn't need all the controller functions and extra synth capabilities..

 

They both took a leap of faith on it and now couldn't be happier - sonically, playability and schlep.

[Jefsong]

Yeah I am pretty hard on my boards. I have used this s90ES for about 10 years now. This is the first time I have ran into any physical problems. My concern with the MOXF8 is missing sliders. Not sure how I would control layered sound's volumes. Plus it is short. I currently I like to set a small Mackie mixer on the bottom board. I guess I could just spend the money and fix what I already got but after so many years with this board I thought I might be missing something newer.

[aronnelson]

Yeah maybe the S90XS. I didn't like the display and the piano nearly as much, but it's the closest for you. Now I have heard rave reviews about the MP7 so check that out.

[ElmerJFudd]

You are definitely upgrading on the S90XS. The S90ES ROM is packed full of sounds and yet has a measly 228mb of waveforms. The S90XS has 456mb which makes up (sort of) for the fact they dropped PLG-150 board support (but if you never got into that it doesn't matter, I have the DX, AN, and AP boards in mine, sound great - but not convenient to program since they haven't done an editor for them since Windows XP). They also did key switching on a bunch of the libraries which is assigned to a dedicated switch on the control panel - cool for changing articulations on string patches (first and favorite use to come to mind). They made it easier to layer (there's a dedicated layer button now) and split and design performances. They put octave and transpose buttons on the control panel. The newer S6 piano library is really nice.

 

For cutting down weight (not much, about 5lbs) and size, consider the S70XS which you might dig for dragging it around.

[Michael W]

For what it's worth, I recently purchased a MOXF8 and really like it. I've also made four short videos that showcase some of the MOXF sounds, including pianos and EPs.

 

 

You may find them interesting.

 

[CEB]

142 mb of the 456mb on the xs is the S6 and it sucks ass.

 

However David Farhner went note by through some of the S6 patches and tried to even out the inconsistencies of the bottom end. These versions of the S6 patches are at least some what usable. The S700 pianos blew the XS away. I have some XS pianos that are decent. I have posted links to most if not all of these on the forum over the last few years. Some of these are CFIII waveforms tweaked to sound sort of like the S700s.

 

So... If you go with a XS let me know and I will see if the links to my pianos are still good.

[ElmerJFudd]

That's well good of you, CEB.

[allan_evett]

142 mb of the 456mb on the xs is the S6 and it sucks ass.

 

However David Farhner went note by through some of the S6 patches and tried to even out the inconsistencies of the bottom end. These versions of the S6 patches are at least some what usable. The S700 pianos blew the XS away. I have some XS pianos that are decent. I have posted links to most if not all of these on the forum over the last few years. Some of these are CFIII waveforms tweaked to sound sort of like the S700s.

 

So... If you go with a XS let me know and I will see if the links to my pianos are still good.

 

I have the Dave Farhner patches, plus a handful of similar free ones from a programmer in Europe; the S6's are much better, and there are some great S700 mimics as well. Now that I have the pianos dialed in, plus a bunch of customized XS sounds, I hardly miss the S90ES. But, the schlep is getting old; and more and more of my gigs are on cramped stages - where the S90XS seems like a yacht. So for the OP, the S70XS could be the better choice, or possibly the MOXF8 - for which I believe the S700 pianos can be loaded into Flash.

[DanL]

I went from the ES to XS. Piano sounds are totally subjective- I liked the XS piano. Some things to consider over a more piano oriented board like a Kawai or CP4 is the depth of programming/synthesis you get with the Yamaha. You won't get the quality horns or synths out of either of those.

 

One of the things that is nice with the XS is you get 8 parts per patch vs 4 on the ES. Still 4 parts on a performance, but the patches themselves can be a lot richer.

 

I have the FA08, I replaced my XS with it, there are definite tradeoffs but I felt the FA offered me more for the band situations I'm in. The pianos and EPs are really nice, and the synth section is awesome. It is not as strong on horns as the Yamaha, but with the virtual expansion boards you can load up, there are a number of options that close the gap. My main horn sound is a 4 voice layer and I get complements a lot on how "real" my horns sound, so programming can go a long way vs calling up factory presets. Other advantages of the FA- super light compared to the XS, much easier to program, built in sampler and sequencer if you need it. The main weakness is it's ability to be a midi controller, it has quirks you have to work around. I pair my FA with an SK1 and they talk nicely together now that I've spent the time working with them.

[U.Honey]

I have both S90ES and Moxf8. Moxf is much easier to transport because its lighter and also shorter. S90ES is about an inch too long to fit into the back seat of my car. I can actually fit Moxf in a 76-key Gator case (it required a little tweaking, though).

 

The keyboard action is way better in S90es and it has also the S700 piano sample. However, if you get a flash card to Moxf you can get the S700 piano into that too.

 

If I didn't play gigs with the board I would probably go with S90XS or Motif XF8. They are just a little too heavy for my to haul around.

 

[Tonysounds]

As a former owner of S90ES and S90xs, and current owner of MP7, I'd say go with the MP7.

 

The pianos in the S90es WAY surpassed the S90xs. The sounds in the XS are very clean, but never SAT in the mix the way my S90es did. Bigger screen on the Es. The XS is super similar to ES in terms of programming so there is that.

 

The Mp7 doesn't have the wealth of sounds the Xs has, but what it has is very good. I don't think patch control is an issue with the Mp7 at all. Best midi controller (and most intuitive) since the King of the Hill ROland A90. The piano sounds are excellent, the EPs are very good out of the box, but benefit from some tweaking, and it's midi control is super Intuitive, Easy and Logical. I've cracked the manual maybe 3 times since owning it, everything is so logical to program. I'll have a more in-depth "review" of my Mp7 this weekend likely. I've already gigged it a few times, and it has cut very well.

 

I also owned an FA08, and honestly, that keyboard could be the strongest bang for the buck out there. The sounds are very good (all roland's legacy stuff basically and some supernatural things), also RIDICULOUSLY EASY to program and use. And programming sounds on the FA08 is pretty simple and intuitive. (Yeah, I use that word a lot, but when you find you can work a piece of gear as easily as a rhodes or a piano -meaning just play it- you have to give points!)

 

My only complaint about the FA08 was its keybed. Okay to play, but I found the finger ear connection left something to be desired. But sonically, WINNER.

[Doug White]

I have picked up parts had from this site before (keys, contact strips, displays) for various keyboards I have:

 

http://syntaur.com/yamaha_s.html

 

Not sure if they have a replacement for your key bed, but sometimes it is worth a shot to peruse the offerings.

 

If you are ambitious, you may be able to fix it yourself. Manuals are out there, but mostly it is a ton of screws to remove and keeping track of connectors. Just keep stuff organized, perhaps labeled, and take pictures at each step. Reverse it to put back together. It is usually not that difficult, just time consuming.

[Outkaster]

I am the only one around here I ever see with S90XS, I got the first run in Sept 2009 from Sweetwater. Yamaha still sells it new. I would be interested in piano sounds CEB. I never used the S6 myself but love a weighted action, especially on the XS for playing brass parts. That is my only worry about going to the CP4 which I considered.

[CEB]

User group type thread.

 

Here are some Pianos. Read your manual for instructions on installing individual voices. Backup your stuff before trying these out in case you overwrite everything.

 

VoicePianoUser1 includes S700 voices and various other piano voices that are a nice addition to the XS. These cover a broad spectrum of timbres.

 

446460-S6_Pianos.zip has improved S6 voices. Read the word doc file for programming notes on the contents.

 

I have never shared files before I hope the link works. It would be nice if some powerusers could share some tips, patches, etc...

 

http://sdrv.ms/XbwGHN

 

 

 

 

The link didn't work from my phone. I may have to setup another online repository.

 

 

[CEB]

I find them to be and improvement over the other stock vanilla patches.

 

I don't have the frame of reference to comapre them to the S90ES. The S90XS was the first piece of Yamaha keyboard I have run since I stopped using the TX7 and TX81Z rack units. For stage pianos I have been traditionally a Roland or a Kawai guy. Also I played the original Korg sampled grand from the 80's.

 

I find the stock S6 patches to be inconsistent. If you play chromatic scales there are what I call for lack of a better term 'dead notes' here and there. They just don't sound right comapared to their neighbors. If I remember correctly there is a low C# that really bugs me in particular. These 3rd party s6 voices I use resolves those inconsistencies.

 

The S700 titled stuff just sounds different, brighter more of what I consider Yamaha like. For band stuff I like them and I find them really useful. How these were done though? You would have to ask this guy. They are his work. There is a link to his webpage were he offered a bunch of patches for download. Maybe Carlo could find out because I can't read Italian.

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LppFx4Kkup8

 

[StanC]

OK so here's my Yamaha arsenal:

S90, S90XS, MX08.

I used the S90 for many years and loved it. It was getting old, a little dinged up, but functionally still perfect. But after so many years, GAS took over and I decided to invest in the S90XS. As some have already said in this thread, the pianos are a little weak compared to the S90. Some other sounds too were less than I was used to with the S90. But I tweaked here and there and brought the XS to a point I was comfortable with.

Then a couple years later a back injury led me to purchase the 24 lb MOX8. Under the impression that the sound engine was the same as the XS I thought it to be the perfect solution for my aching back. IMO the MOX8 was very thin sounding in comparison. I guess that's due to the lower grade of polyphony. And for that reason I considered trading up to the MOXF8. But in the meantime, I mostly recovered from the back problems. So for gigging, I use the XS, but never do the schlepping alone anymore. The MOX8 is easy to schlep back and forth to rehearsals. And the S90 is resting comfortably in my practice room. Occassionally I switch her on and play, just for old time's sake.

[Jefsong]

DanL - I was looking at the Roland FA08. When I played my initial impression wasn't crazy about the action but was impressed with what you get for the money. You mentioned that it was not a good master controller. Could you elaborate on that a bit? Typically I like to trigger horns or synth lead from the bottom manual of my SK2 sending on midi channel 2 to my s90ES in master mode (multi-timbral mode). Is that possible with the FA08?

[aronnelson]

Funny this is. I had to play the FA08 and I thought it was ok. I didn't find it particularly intuitive, in fact, I found it pretty counter intuitive - even though I tried to make things happen, knobs didn't seem to affect the correct parameters. I thought it sounded ok, not nearly as good as the S90ES.

 

re: MOX8 @ 24 pounds - almost got me. I thought - another at 24 pounds? No. It's 32 pounds.

[Jefsong]

Is anyone familiar with the Roland RD-300NX?

[aronnelson]

I played it on a rental. It was ok, but no where near the S90ES. It still had those bad EP that Roland sometimes has with the distinct 2 layer abrupt change.

[ElmerJFudd]

Yeah, it's ok. It's got the Ivory Feel G action on it, I don't care for it when you compare to the action on the RD-700nx or the 800. But it's the same action that they use on the FA-08. It's a decent light weight (just over 38.5lbs) bang for your buck keyboard. It's no FA-08 feature wise.

 

But heck, if you're going to throw sub $1500 stage pianos into the mix then you have to look at your alternatives...

 

Yamaha P-255

Yamaha CP-40

Kurzweil SP58

Kurzweil Artis SE 88

Korg SV-1 73

Kawai ES100

Casio PX-160, 360, 560

Casio CGP 700

Casio CDP 130

 

 

 

 

 

[DanL]

DanL - I was looking at the Roland FA08. When I played my initial impression wasn't crazy about the action but was impressed with what you get for the money. You mentioned that it was not a good master controller. Could you elaborate on that a bit? Typically I like to trigger horns or synth lead from the bottom manual of my SK2 sending on midi channel 2 to my s90ES in master mode (multi-timbral mode). Is that possible with the FA08?

 

Using it to control patch changes on other boards is the weakness. I use studio sets for everything- each song has a studio set, and I have some base studio sets for go to sounds - piano, Rhodes, piano/string layer, etc. The FA will only send out the current studio set number to the external board. So SS 1 sends on program change 1- there is no way to change it to send out program change 54 if that's what you want to call on the remote board. It's workable but I had to rearrange a lot of sounds in the Hammond and ended up with a lot of repeats of the same organ sound that I use, because if for example studio set 24, 33, 58 all use the same organ, I had to copy that sound to the same program locations on the Hammond. At least in the Hammond it has the external zone settings where you can call up whatever program change you want, so I'm able to map to my Nord Lead, and was able to map to my Ultranova and Moog when those were in the rig. So- not a dealbreaker, but an inconvenience.

 

As far as controlling a sound on the FA from the Hammond, that'd be easy. You can even layer up a few sounds by changing the midi channel on the studio set parts, so for a fat horn section you could layer 3-4 horn sounds and assign each part to ch2, and control them all from the SK2.

[zaj58]

If you go with the S90XS be aware that they sell for really good deals used... They are just not all that popular.. I think the S90ES was a much bigger seller then the S90XS series for Yamaha.. I had the S70XS for some time and I liked it..I switched over to the CP4 because i didnt need all the extra Motif sounds and performance capabilities of the XS .. The one piano sample in the ES was better then the S6 sample in the XS and it was not possible to get the one from the ES loaded in to the XS. That always irked me..but by used if you go that route.. They sell cheap.. I sold my S70XS for 1k.. it was perfect..

[ElmerJFudd]

Yeah, it's interesting with the S90/S70SX - the pattern of releasing the Motif library in a more performance oriented board had been working for Yamaha for a while... but I think the arrival of Kronos in '11 is really what the crux of it was... so we saw sort of the melding of the Motif, MO and S90 lines in the MOXF8 - which is really quite a bit of keyboard for the money. Now the Montage is their top tier performance board - but WOW is it pricey (for now).