High Quality Synth Action - An oxymoron?

[Kayvon]

As I write this I have a Studiologic VMK-161 midi controller off to my side. I bought it principally because it features a variant of the Fatar TP/8S key action, the TP/8O.

 

It's perhaps my favourite midi key action I've played. This is due to it's long fulcrum point and also its long black keys.

 

However, I still can't get the level of control I desire from this action. I'm a believer in appropriate tools for the job ergo I want to play an acoustic/electric piano sound with a piano type action but I favour a light, quick action for almost all other keyboard sounds.

 

Now, am I wishing for a more refined key action that, should it exist, would actually be a weighted hammer action like we currently have on any number of midi controllers or is it possible, in your opinion, to further refine the unweighted action of the synthesizer?

 

I'm inclined to believe it is possible but the call is not there. People are getting by adequately and making music. Perhaps it's only me who is frustrated with synth actions? Are things like the Roli Seaboard, Touch Keys and the ill-fated NDVR Evo a step too far away from a standard keyboard action? Infinite Response seem to be doing some interesting things designing their own actions. Would synth actions benefit from triple sensors like many piano actions have now? How about a more continuous interaction between velocity & initial force when keys bottom out?

 

Interested to hear opinions on this.

[RABid]

Unlike most people here, I prefer synth action to hammer action. My favorite comes on high end 76 key workstations. Roland has had some great synth action Fantoms, along with the XP. I also like the action on the Motif 7 line. It has never bothered me to play piano on these keyboards. I think two factors lead to this. I've play a LOT of music on synth action keyboards, and I grew up with a horrible piano that turned me against hammer action.

[GDP]

Best synth actions I have experience with are on the Voyager and Virus TI2.

 

[The Real MC]

Hard to beat the Pratt-Read keysets on old synths, especially one with brand new bushings. Too bad PR is no longer around.

[RudyS]

For me, I think, hammer actions synth actions are two different tools for different purposes. I like hammer actions for piano parts, but when I want to shred a synth solo I prefer a good synth action.

 

For me, the Roland Jupiter 80 has a really nice synth action. I enjoy playing it (only played it in the store). But still, I don't want it to replace a 88 hammer action.

[JAD]

I concur with the Virus TI keybed being the best I've experienced in synth action. I can make do with anything in a pinch, but it just doesn't feel right without a graded hammer action for piano parts, waterfall action for organ parts, and a lighter action for synth parts. Improving the tactile connection to your instrument pay dividends in more authentically expressing what you desire to musically.

[ITGITC]

 

The DX7 had a great action. Much better than my K2000.

 

 

[Kayvon]

The DX7 had a great action. Much better than my K2000.

 

 

I wonder how much this has to do with the FS action using leaf springs instead of coil springs?

 

I really like my Yamaha SY-1 action for certain things as well. But then again I find it lacking for other trills and general stability. This takes me back to my original paradox, if by making an action more controllable we have to make it heavier and perhaps more like the action of a piano, is it impossible to have a really high quality, refined synth action?

[piano39]

I think that this has a lot to do with the keyboard you used when you started to play.

In my case, I started to play on a Lowrey home organ back in 1967 (God, am I old). I didn't know that the action sucked until I got a Hammond M3 in college. A decent acoustic piano was nowhere to be found, in my case.

 

I now own a nice acoustic piano with a great action (Yamaha UX-3). Yeah, I prefer that action, for piano stuff, to my Motif XF. But, the Motif action is great. I can't think of anything that I can play on the acoustic that i can not play on the Motif.

 

The key is practice, practice, practice with the board that you have.

[joegerardi]

IMHO:

Best synth action:

KX76/DX7/Korg M1 (All the same actions.)

 

Best Piano-style action:

KX88. Haven't found anything I like better int he last 25 years.

 

..Joe

 

[Stokely]

My favorite synth action ever was my Virus kb. I don't think it was just the physical action though...the patches were programed to respond very dynamically to what you played. The aftertouch was extremely easy to control; by contrast, some other boards I've owned it seemed like I'd always accidently press just a bit too hard and the aftertouch effect (whatever was programmed) would be there when I wouldn't want it. I expect it's a combination of the action and the programming.

[Kayvon]

More than favourite actions what I was getting at was whether or not people thought that to refine the synthesizer action even further would be to essentially turn it into a piano style action.

 

I gather this has kind of happened a few times, namely with the CS-80, Rhodes Chroma and Sequential T8.

 

Now correct me if I'm wrong but all these synthesizers had a significant level of design and attention paid to their keyboards which ended up being weighted actions that resembled those of a piano.

 

Now throughout my journey of keyboard purchases (much aided by this here forum) I've bought a number of keyboards solely for their special key actions but I've never had the good fortune to play any of the aforementioned classic synths so perhaps some more acomplished keys players might share their experiences of those keyboards. I found this thread where a a couple of people regale that they actually preferred CS-60/50 unweighted actions over the CS-80.

 

I concur with the Virus TI keybed being the best I've experienced in synth action. I can make do with anything in a pinch, but it just doesn't feel right without a graded hammer action for piano parts, waterfall action for organ parts, and a lighter action for synth parts. Improving the tactile connection to your instrument pay dividends in more authentically expressing what you desire to musically.

I 100% agree with your last statement there and it's essentially why I have about 4 midi controllers/synths but I still desire something with a better connection. Incidentally, if I was in the market for an 88 note piano action I'd be happy with one of the recent offerings from Roland/Kawai/Yamaha/Studiologic.

 

With regards to your Virus action, I find the extra weighting actually spoils it over the TP/8O, it doesn't offer one much more controllability and kinda stifles some playing. Not overly but I believe semi-weighted actions are done more to give the impression of quality rather than significantly aid in controlling dynamics. Feel free to argue that one though!

[Joe P]

If you can get used to playing piano parts on an unweighted action, you can give yourself a lot more gear options.

[Hoochie]

The Prophet T8 is very special in the keyboard world.

I can speak to that.

 

There is nothing like it. At least that I've touched.

Butter.

Wood keys throughout. And their nice and long.

Light yet solid. No bounce. It thunks gently.

The after touch is as close to playing a mechanical or gestural

instrument as I've ever felt.

The keybed was also used in the Synclavier.

 

It does require maintenance though.

It's action echoes that of an upright

piano in its mechanisms. Just re engineered

and flattened to fit. It's pretty remarkable what they did.

 

I currently have a Yamaha CP4. It's pretty special too.

Different in a lot of ways but still a closer approach to an ideal piano

key bed.

In my opinion of course. I don't care for the bounce back feel in many

of them.

 

As far as synth keys the DX7 set the bar pretty high.

And got used by a lot of manufacturers. Really miss that one.

 

Today the Korg M3 (is the Kronos 61 the same?)or the Roland J50 or J80.

The Yamaha synth keys are short and narrower to me at least.

Once again my opinion but I like very even smooth responce without

the melodica diving board keys or the way too resistant spring back that

you have to fight to hold down. Think Akai or even the 76 key Kurz variant.

 

John

[CEB]

Different people like different stuff.

[Throbert]

I really liked the DX7, but it took a very articulate style. If

you leaned into it the sound could get really sloppy.

You had to concentrate on keeping it all in the fingers and try

not to change hand position too much. I liked my trinity a lot,

but it was stolen so I got a tr76 and really regretted it. I also

don't like Novations, they just plain suck. I liked the Fantom

and Juno controllers and really like the Extreme 76 which I would

like to replace the tr with.

Yes there needs to be a refined synth action controller on the

market with the kind of attention to detail/quality as Infinite

Response.

[CEB]

Good stuff - DX7, D50, Fantoms ( not the new FA shit), M1, PEK (didn't like a wall wart on a $3000 synth though), old Sequentials (Pratt-Read), Access Virus TI and TI2, OLD Roland Jupiters and SHs ... pre SH-201s, Old Moogs (Pratt-Read), Old Oberheim (Pratt-Read), PPGs (Pratt-Read I think).

 

Basically new stuff sucks.

 

 

[dazzjazz]

You've hit the nail on the head.

KX76 was fabulous. Easy to articulate anything on that board, without it being too light.

They should simply bring it back.

 

IMHO:

Best synth action:

KX76/DX7/Korg M1 (All the same actions.)

 

Best Piano-style action:

KX88. Haven't found anything I like better int he last 25 years.

 

..Joe

[Kayvon]

Yes there needs to be a refined synth action controller on the

market with the kind of attention to detail/quality as Infinite

Response.

 

This.

 

Been looking into the Infinite Response with a new interest since they started their Kickstarter. The VAX77 didn't really pique my interest at the time but since I saw their process with this latest board I've started checking on them.

[Kayvon]

The Prophet T8 is very special in the keyboard world.

I can speak to that.

 

There is nothing like it. At least that I've touched.

Butter.

Wood keys throughout. And their nice and long.

Light yet solid. No bounce. It thunks gently.

The after touch is as close to playing a mechanical or gestural

instrument as I've ever felt.

The keybed was also used in the Synclavier.

 

It does require maintenance though.

It's action echoes that of an upright

piano in its mechanisms. Just re engineered

and flattened to fit. It's pretty remarkable what they did.

 

I do get those moments where I think about pawning in a good few of my boards & a substantial whack of $£ for something like one of those. I've often wondered if it could be a cheap way of entry to just try and pick up the Synclavier keyboard without the sound generation part but not sure if they ever sold them separately.

[ksoper]

Hard to beat the Pratt-Read keysets on old synths, especially one with brand new bushings. Too bad PR is no longer around.

 

The action on my restored Model D is just wonderful. I'm also partial to the Korg Wavestation's action and not surprised that Tony Banks still uses it as a controller.

[Synthaholic]

High Quality Synth Action - An oxymoron?

 

The all-time champ:

 

 

 

http://cdn.roland.com/assets/images/products/main/a_70_top_main.jpg

 

 

"The A-70 is an "organ-touch" weighted, velocity-sensitive 76-note professional MIDI Master Control keyboard with many of the same innovative MIDI control features as Rolands flagship A-90."

[Synthaholic]

I'll also say, if you can find a good condition Alesis QS7.1 they have a very snappy synth action. I have two of them and they make a great lightweight (28lbs), great synth action, 4 controller/16 split, velocity sensitive, with aftertouch (and metal!). And I see them on eBay for $300, which is a steal if you want to just MIDI it up with your main Super Duper Workstation of choice or a module. Or both.

 

http://www.popeye-x.com/images/QS7.1.jpg

 

 

Two pedals + 1 sustain. In/Out/Thru

[BP3]

High Quality Synth Action - An oxymoron?

 

The all-time champ:

http://cdn.roland.com/assets/images/products/main/a_70_top_main.jpg

"The A-70 is an "organ-touch" weighted, velocity-sensitive 76-note professional MIDI Master Control keyboard with many of the same innovative MIDI control features as Rolands flagship A-90."

 

I still have two A-70s! Both the keybed and the pitch/mod wheels - Roland paddle combo make it a wonderful controller.

 

If more companies would take that concept with their high end controllers the market would continue to grow. Add motorized (quiet) drawbars and other modern (perhaps modular) interfaces as side mounted components and the customer could have an exceptional array of options.

 

Providing the player with these options will make playing much more fun. The "modular" concept could be revolutionary if there was a frame based format to add components like iPads, drum pads, fader banks, X/Y pads and so on. Being frame based would allow for changes in iPad connectors, and left or right handed preferences.

 

 

[Doerfler]

I still have two A-70s! Both the keybed and the pitch/mod wheels - Roland paddle combo make it a wonderful controller.

 

good for you, Liam. Nice to have you stop by.

[Kayvon]

The all-time champ:

 

"The A-70 is an "organ-touch" weighted, velocity-sensitive 76-note professional MIDI Master Control keyboard with many of the same innovative MIDI control features as Rolands flagship A-90."

 

I think this has the same keys as the Roland G70, which, has suspiciously similar textured and rounded black key 'ends' as my Fatar TP/8O. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some link there.

 

I nearly bought a s/h G70 just as a midi controller for the keys but at that time my main Rhodes sound was an SRX-12 plugged into a Fantom XR. God knows what the old chap must've thought when I went to demo it but he let me take the back off and plug in my SRX board in. I wasn't happy with the way it responded, perhaps because of the programming I was used to on my Fantom XR so I never bought it.

 

Interesting though, it'd be one of the other actions I'd search out if I didn't already have these controllers.

 

Man, what I'd really like to do is to develop my own keyboard controller. I have zero of the engineering skills to undertake the task though. Time and money perhaps but I remember my D&T lessons at school where I never managed to leave the design phase classroom to get into the workshop much less fabricate something decent.

 

I'd love to get some of the know how from these keyboard action designers. It's not exactly something you can study at evening school though \:

[Leh173]

I agree with a lot of comments on here in regards to the Roland high end semi weighted action. I've been very very happy with my Fantom G6 action. My D70 is not bad, and I used to think that the DX7 was OK but the Fantom blows them away. So playable. Good with it's own synth engine and controlling anything else. Perhaps it just suits my touch but it's great one. I remember thinking the Kronos was good too, and the Roland Jupiter 50/80 Juno Stage.

[hardware]

I absolutely love the action on the Physis K4.

Great for Piano, Hammond splits and synths with customized AFT curves to fit my choice of pressure, storable per Scene/Performance.

Best controller I ever had and I started using COntrollers back in '85 with the Yamaha KX8/A90/MC3000/KS Pro/Casio PX-5S....

 

Classically and Jazz trained all of my earlier years and only knew real Pianos.

Don't ever want to go back to that, and if I do it's for only 90 minutes maybe as my chops have been re orientated.