Yes in the slow lane

[Tonysounds]

Kansas....prog. HeadEast? No. Reo? Certainly NOT! One Eyed jacks....never heard of 'em. styx? Not so prog. Steppenwolf...no. edgar Winter, I'm guessing you were trying to say these were the cats that got you into "this" (this=playing keyboards), not that these were the cats that got you into prog. Cuz again....they're not prog. (Kansas aside)

[Daniel Heslop]

Tormato

 

I actually like quite a bit of it. Rejoice/Future times and Release Release are both excellent. Madrigal too is great!

People talk about the sound of that album (and to some degree Going for the One) but for me....and I know I am in the minority here, the sound that bothers me the most on Tormato is Squire's chorused bass. I hate that sound!!! Rick maybe got a bit polymoog happy, but I"m mostly ok with it.

 

70's prog writing "weak"....given that I think Close To The Edge is maybe the greatest song ever written outside of classical music, I will respectfully disagree.

[Aidan]

Found this illuminating interview with Jonathan Elias about the Union debacle. Makes for interesting reading.

[Mitch Towne]

Great link, Aidan! I love reading musicians talk crap about each other. Always makes for a fun read.

 

I recall Wakeman's reaction to this was, "I wouldn't trust John Elias with a food processor."

[MathOfInsects]

I hated most prog and still do. I gave Zappa a pass for being funny, and King Crimson one for being weird. I kinda-sorta liked Kansas, but if you really pushed me, I'd have to admit that it's their commercial stuff I liked, not their pre-breakthrough material. (Same way that one day I'll admit out loud that I like "the black album" more than "Master of Puppets," but that's another thread.) Ditto Yes.

 

Perhaps the Beatles were to blame, as Elijah Wald says (sorta). Most prog groups, though, ignored the miraculous fact that the Beatles were able to channel almost all of their most adventurous tendencies into 3-minute hits.

 

I essentially only liked prog that knew it was a self-indulgent mess, not the stuff that took itself seriously as some kind of "higher" art form. And ironically, I especially disliked the keys and piano-based stuff. Once fingers hit keys, songs get l-o-o-o-o-o-o-n-g.

 

On that note, I seem to be the only guy on the planet who HATED ELP (both P's). Hated. Did I say hated? Hated. The worst of the taking-itself-seriously, keys-and-piano-based crop. "But Keith is really good, watch him play classical." Good for him, I'm sure Carrottop is a good volleyball player, too, but I ain't going to a Carrottop comedy set any time soon.

 

 

***The preceding was an excerpt from my upcoming book, "How to Make Friends on a Keyboard Forum," available in print and download editions.

 

 

[drawback]

On that note, I seem to be the only guy on the planet who HATED ELP (both P's). Hated. Did I say hated? Hated. The worst of the taking-itself-seriously, keys-and-piano-based crop. "But Keith is really good, watch him play classical."

 

 

Then that makes two of us.

[Daniel Heslop]

Interesting sounding book. Are there any chapters on "How Jazz should never have happened", or "Guitar solos...there are never enough" and "Why are the keyboards always too loud in the mix?"

 

I think every opinion is valid in areas of taste.

 

For me the frustration was always "Why doesn't everyone love this stuff????" I would (and still do) play Yes albums for people and expect them to fall in love with it, yet more often they just look confused and start talking about the drug scene in the 70's.

I had one student very seriously ask me after listening for about a minute to Roundabout or Siberian Khatru or something...and saying "Why are they all soloing at the same time?"

Of course knowing the likely reaction, now I often introduce kids to Yes with the song "Sound chaser" which I think outside of "Ancient" (side 3 of Tales from Topographic Oceans") is probably as out there progressive as Yes ever got.

 

ELP is a bit different because of the general lack of guitar. I think that kind of throws people off. I do find more of a tolerance for Yes than ELP among non-proggies. I suspect Genesis would be even more readily accepted as it is a bit more melodic overall, and a bit less weird (except for Peter Gabriel's stage attire and hairstyles)

 

On the positive side, I have a Wakeman poster on my teaching studio wall, long blond hair wearing a glittery cape surrounded by a plethora of Minimoogs, Hammonds, Mellotrons, Pianos, etc. Kids love it!

[CEB]

I respected ELP and Yes. It was sort of the classical stuff that turned me off a little bit. Both bands had good cuts.

 

I came from a high brow classical background. My teacher for my first 8 years flipped her wig when I wanted to work through a Jazz study. If I wanted to listen clasical esque shredding I would turn to recordings of the world's elite playing Liszt, Scriabin, Beetoven Sonatas, etc....

 

But I like Rock n Roll and I like big vocals and a strong rock n Roll back beat.

 

That is the thing I always shared with Roger was we are both big Beatles fans. The thing about The Beatles were big harmonies. A lot of the deeper Head East cuts you didn't hear on the radio had big harmonies. Even the new albums have huge harmonies over a driving rock n Roll back beat. Styx, Kansas, same thing. Styx was Progy before they had a national record deal. The first 2 albums Styx album were real progy.

 

I like Peter Gabriel a whole bunch. I think best thing that ever happened to both Peter and Genesis was his departure. 27 minutes of Peter singing a high pitch wandering of Supper's Ready I don't get it. .... I hear it is good if you like to get stone on good weed.

 

Kansas had a lot of classical rootings but they kicked ass. They could sing very well, had real rock guitar and a rhythm section drove to music to ass kicking level. Those first 4 albums had it all.

 

'Prog' is a new thing. It is some term that was invented in the 90s to label what we just called Rock 20 years earlier.

[Daniel Heslop]

Hmmm we (me and the other guys in my band) called it "Progressive Rock" in the seventies, and I'm sure we learned the term from "Contemporary Keyboard" magazine.

 

Yes were also formed on the idea of big vocals and harmonies. That was the cornerstone of what Jon Anderson and Chris Squire were trying to build.

[sherry]

Kansas has had a sort of rebirth with the retirement of Steve Walsh. New singer is great. They're talking new album after 15 years. I'm a huge fan. They just released a new DVD that's doing very well. And they are absolutely prog.

[MathOfInsects]

I've had lots of moments where I rehear some group or genre I didn't "get" as a kid and discover I've been behind the curve for all these years. But not ELP. Every time I hear them I think, "Yup, still sucks."

 

 

 

[Losendoskeys]

And the songs are too long. Good 'Prog' would be the 1st 4 Kansas albums and Lucky Man.

 

Guys that got me in this were Kansas, Head East Reo, One Eyed Jacks, Styx, Steppenwolf, Edgar Winter, ect.... And I like Gregg Rolie a lot.

 

CEB sometimes your are "out there" but this time you are "out there" on your own in a space suit about 30 light years away

I don't think you know what prog is

[Losendoskeys]

I hated most prog and still do. I gave Zappa a pass for being funny, and King Crimson one for being weird. I kinda-sorta liked Kansas, but if you really pushed me, I'd have to admit that it's their commercial stuff I liked, not their pre-breakthrough material. (Same way that one day I'll admit out loud that I like "the black album" more than "Master of Puppets," but that's another thread.) Ditto Yes.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps the Beatles were to blame, as Elijah Wald says (sorta). Most prog groups, though, ignored the miraculous fact that the Beatles were able to channel almost all of their most adventurous tendencies into 3-minute hits.

 

I essentially only liked prog that knew it was a self-indulgent mess, not the stuff that took itself seriously as some kind of "higher" art form. And ironically, I especially disliked the keys and piano-based stuff. Once fingers hit keys, songs get l-o-o-o-o-o-o-n-g.

 

On that note, I seem to be the only guy on the planet who HATED ELP (both P's). Hated. Did I say hated? Hated. The worst of the taking-itself-seriously, keys-and-piano-based crop. "But Keith is really good, watch him play classical." Good for him, I'm sure Carrottop is a good volleyball player, too, but I ain't going to a Carrottop comedy set any time soon.

 

 

***The preceding was an excerpt from my upcoming book, "How to Make Friends on a Keyboard Forum," available in print and download editions.

 

In which case I have to exact revenge and tell you I hate it when Yanks misrepresent the English language - it's mathS, not math, derived from "mathematics"

 

And keep your hands off ELP, they were English and epic, which you could not say of any US "prog" - most of which is just rock.

 

/Throws handgrenade and exits..........

 

If it wasn't for prog there wouldn't be a Mellotron or monster modular synths - good enough reason for me to love it.

[marczellm]

De gustibus non est disputandum but I don't have a clue what the heck Pink Floyd was trying to say with all that weird music.

 

I love ELP but I am fully aware of their shortcomings and limitations.

[jimkost2002]

Thanks, marczellm, for that succinct summation of ELP----and I believe it applies to prog in general....I, too, have a nostalgic soft spot for ELP and prog in general but am wholly aware of the shortcomings and limitations of ELP and orog in general.

ELP do seem to have dated the most of all the prog "supergroups".....

 

Lester Bangs famously called them "war criminals" in that they were so far disconnected from the blues and gospel roots of rock AND the overblown structures and pomposity of approach. (Not that I agree with the extremity of Bangs' designation, but I bring it up simply to iluustrate the controversy the genre created back in the day among those whose lodestar of rock consisted of the Stooges, MC5, Bowie and the Stones)

 

And we've mainly been touching on Yes here because of the OP, but we can't forget Hawkwind or Gong on the British side....(and then there's Krautrock...)

 

 

[Markay]

Found this illuminating interview with Jonathan Elias about the Union debacle. Makes for interesting reading.

Elias doesn't hold back with his opinions:

 

"It's sad, because I once thought that these guys were great players, but they can barely play their instruments and they play too many notes. "

 

Not how I would describe what I saw live last year. Well played, CTTE and Fragile came across as good as expected, full house and everyone went home happy. Davidson is not Anderson but I would rather see them with Davidson than not see them at all.

[mcgoo]

Found this illuminating interview with Jonathan Elias about the Union debacle. Makes for interesting reading.

Elias doesn't hold back with his opinions:

 

"It's sad, because I once thought that these guys were great players, but they can barely play their instruments and they play too many notes. "

 

Not how I would describe what I saw live last year.

 

Yeah, I have to take his comments with a grain of salt. He blasted Wakeman in Keyboard at the time for overplaying. I think he said "If I wanted someone to play scales I would've hired his daughter". Pretty scathing insult, but hardly one appropriate for someone who can "barely play" anymore.

 

Howe, Wakeman & Anderson played together for many years after Union, so I don't buy that they hated each other quite as much as he suggested. As in most things, I'm sure the truth lies somewhere between what the Yes folk said about him & what he said about them.

 

I remember seeing the Union tour. While there was certainly a cool factor about seeing all those guys on stage together, I remember thinking that the only ones that appeared to have actually sat down in a room together & talked thru / played thru how to make the arrangements work with the duplication were White & Bruford. Howe / Rabin and Wakeman / Kaye seemed to pretty much ignore each other musically & visually.

[Markay]

Must have a low point in their careers. For musos from the 'hope I die before I get old' era there were not many templates available on how to remain relevant in mainstream rock and have a 50 year career - plus survive some pretty unscrupulous management along the way.

 

The mere fact that they are still touring in their early 70's and selling out theatres is well beyond anything they, or their audience would have dreamed of 40 years ago. If they have an off night well it isn't the first, won't be the last and they have 50 years of experience in bouncing back.

[CEB]

I will never fault players from playing as long as they can.

 

You don't stop playing because you get old. You get old because you stop playing.

[CEB]

And the songs are too long. Good 'Prog' would be the 1st 4 Kansas albums and Lucky Man.

 

Guys that got me in this were Kansas, Head East Reo, One Eyed Jacks, Styx, Steppenwolf, Edgar Winter, ect.... And I like Gregg Rolie a lot.

 

CEB sometimes your are "out there" but this time you are "out there" on your own in a space suit about 30 light years away

I don't think you know what prog is

 

 

I'm not out there. A dude mewing through a 25+ minute song that you can't dance to while wearing a flower costume and clown make up .... that is out there.

 

Prog didn't exist till the 90's. It was label that was invented to describe old long stuff you could dance to that the DJs at KSHE played on the air when they had to go to the crapper or wanted to go get high. It was just called Rock or FM Rock or Album Rock.

 

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M58wE8GTGp4

[Markay]

It was never about the dancing Genesis wrote a song to make the point

[video:youtube]

[Joe Muscara]

Prog didn't exist till the 90's. It was label that was invented to describe old long stuff you could dance to that the DJs at KSHE played on the air when they had to go to the crapper or wanted to go get high. It was just called Rock or FM Rock or Album Rock.

You're just trying to stir up stuff here, right?

 

The term "progressive rock," which appeared in the liner notes of Caravan's 1968 self-titled debut LP, came to be applied to these bands that used classical music techniques to expand the styles and concepts available to rock music.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock

 

We were calling it progressive rock or prog rock in the 80s when I was in college.

 

1990s and 2000s

 

Third wave

 

A third wave of progressive rock bands, who might more properly be described as a second generation of neo-progressive bands,[281] emerged in the 1990s. The use of the term "progressive" to describe groups that follow in the style of bands from ten to twenty years earlier is somewhat controversial, as it has been seen as a contradiction of the spirit of experimentation and progress.

What you claim doesn't make sense, if the 90s and 00s were the "third wave" of prog rock and people were complaining about the term being applied to them.

 

Look, we get it. You don't dig it. Fine.

[Losendoskeys]

And the songs are too long. Good 'Prog' would be the 1st 4 Kansas albums and Lucky Man.

 

Guys that got me in this were Kansas, Head East Reo, One Eyed Jacks, Styx, Steppenwolf, Edgar Winter, ect.... And I like Gregg Rolie a lot.

 

CEB sometimes your are "out there" but this time you are "out there" on your own in a space suit about 30 light years away

I don't think you know what prog is

 

 

I'm not out there. A dude mewing through a 25+ minute song that you can't dance to while wearing a flower costume and clown make up .... that is out there.

 

Prog didn't exist till the 90's. It was label that was invented to describe old long stuff you could dance to that the DJs at KSHE played on the air when they had to go to the crapper or wanted to go get high. It was just called Rock or FM Rock or Album Rock.

 

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M58wE8GTGp4

 

You have to be British

We didn't just invent the word eccentric.

I think you completely missed the subtlety of Genesis CEB, go listen to Pink Floyd, thats more Yank oriented

 

PS We had someone break dancing to Suppers Ready a few years back - you had to be there...........

[AnotherScott]

Prog didn't exist till the 90's.

Right. And the Casio PX-5S isn't a MIDI controller. ;-)

 

[jimkost2002]

Thanks Markay, well said and a great way to see the big picture

[MathOfInsects]

I always wondered why the Brits clung quaintly to that 's' on the end of "maths" like it was the last tiny piece of earth in a once-sprawling empire. Now I know.

 

Anyway, we Yanks are notorious do-gooders. When we see abuse, we try to intervene. That's why, when we saw what you guys were doing to that poor helpless language, we knew we had to liberate it.

 

Before we did, "aluminum" was forced to lug around a cruel and meaningless extra syllable. You shamelessly violated "s" labor laws, making it do the work of a fully grown "z." (We refuse to call that letter by its slave-name, "zed.") You "knocked up" your citizens--men and women alike!--every morning, and made them "smoke fags" all day.

 

ELP was not a band. It was a cockney cry for 'elp. We heeded that call. You should be grateful.

 

And by the way, don't get all "but Canada" on me. Canada gets a pass for now. We expect a bit of acting out from the children of divorce.

[drawback]

And by the way, don't get all "but Canada" on me. Canada gets a pass for now. We expect a bit of acting out from the children of divorce.

 

Excuse me, but if this is at the root of our need to apologize for everything, I'm sorry.

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

Best laugh I've had in a week.

 

Sorry, I meant in half a fortnight.

[marczellm]

Saying those prog bands (in particular no less) suffered from weak songwriting is like saying modern pop suffers from over arranging.

 

Those bands used forms closer to classical forms than Verse/Chorus/Verse/Bridge/End.

Being an ELP fan, I almost always feel a very strong sense of compositional structure and "arc" in ELP works while I perceive much of what I heard from Yes and Genesis as good instrumental themes basically slapped together. But I'd appreciate pointers to prove the contrary.

[mate stubb]

Most of the sense of compositional structure from ELP came because they were playing barely disguised classical works, and the structure came from the original composition.