Yamaha hasn't released a new flagship synth because ________

[Bif_]

 

yep, hope springs eternal. There is always next year, etc.

 

If this is the prevailing gut feel, that could be a reason to not buy the XF .

 

Lot's of folks have been speculating that the XF successor would have been unveiled two years ago (!) so I don't know if waiting would pay off. :idk I just think they aren't done with it high end synths.

 

Now, if I was in the market today for a top-tier workstation it might be a tough decision. It would most certainly be a Kronos or Motif XF (quite likely Kronos).

 

Thankfully I don't have the decision to make. And I have more gear than I currently need. Not that that's a bad thing.

[piano39]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pichosterforme/AgePole.jpg

 

I have a theory on this pole. I think the shape of this bar graph generally doesn't change based on the idea that the guys who are 20-40 are way too busy gigging for nothing and getting l@id to bother with this forum. When the steady paying gig shows up and you settle down and have kids, you can afford the rig and you might be drawn to a place like this to chat with guys you run into less and less as your time is very prioritized.

 

Rig wise, we definitely have seen a shift in what younger players and the mass market can afford to drop on a keyboard. Casio has killed it the last few years with that PX-5S's feature to price point + weight. And synthesis is back in a big way. The kids are very interested in that and the term ROMpler has become something they want to avoid at all costs... like that's their Dad's rig. On the other hand, they are also finding all these cool DW-8000's, DX7s, Juno 106s, etc. on eBay in reach. Actually, enough so that they are rising in asking price!

 

I think Yamaha is very aware of this, hence the big push lately about their 40 year synth history, and we are likely to see synths (analog and/or VA) from them very soon.

 

I'll tell you what though, we are small potatoes compared to guitars these days. And this is a trend I would sure'd like to see change.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pichosterforme/JapanDigital-1.jpg

 

On the other hand sales of synths in the US is pretty steady.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pichosterforme/US%20Keyboard%20Synth.jpg

 

Curious about what the kids are into, poke around on Reddit

Check out these conversations:

synthesizers/Reddit

 

Gosh , I wonder why things started to plummet after 2008? , Oh look, no figures after 2013 because they would be off the graph down in the basement.

 

Brett

 

I think that the graphs need some clarification. Note that the graph is headed "Japan Domestic Sales and Exports". The reason for the fallout could simply because a lot of production has moved to China. If the product is being made and shipped from China(no matter who the parent company is), Japan isn't going to get credit for the export.

 

On the other hand, the recession definitely had to make a difference.

[Musicale]

Perhaps there is no demaand for one...

 

Musicale

[Outkaster]

Man this thread is kind of depressing. It's not anyone's fault it's just how things are, everyone brings up valid points. I fear for the future, gigging musicians are becoming a thing of the past in some places. The phrase "bedroom producers" is kind of scary because it seems things are heading there.

[Michael W]

We had a nasty recession in the US in 2008/09. It likely changed some discretionary spending.

 

Agree 100%. Those were a couple of really bad years.

 

[Brettymike]

Man this thread is kind of depressing. It's not anyone's fault it's just how things are, everyone brings up valid points. I fear for the future, gigging musicians are becoming a thing of the past in some places. The phrase "bedroom producers" is kind of scary because it seems things are heading there.

 

Doesn't make any difference at all.

The muso's that stick with live concerts will be more valuable.

 

Brett

[Brettymike]

We had a nasty recession in the US in 2008/09. It likely changed some discretionary spending.

 

Agree 100%. Those were a couple of really bad years.

 

Isn't it awesome how things are on the up and up now.

 

Brett

[Ken Beaumont]

You would think so. Wait until the fed stops the zero interest on bank to bank short term loans.

[Brettymike]

We have to keep pretending everything is good ;-).

 

Brett

[Theo Verelst]

Or learn that a flagship like the CP4 has more power than most use, because many don't learn a thing when it's about an art above the level of dog-sh*t distributing.

 

T.

[Outkaster]

Man this thread is kind of depressing. It's not anyone's fault it's just how things are, everyone brings up valid points. I fear for the future, gigging musicians are becoming a thing of the past in some places. The phrase "bedroom producers" is kind of scary because it seems things are heading there.

 

Doesn't make any difference at all.

The muso's that stick with live concerts will be more valuable.

 

Brett

 

Explain that in a little more detail why don't you.

[Brettymike]

Which part.

 

Brett

[JeffLearman]

It's too bad we even have to make jokes about it from a company that as wide as it is deep like Yamaha. Some of us here really like their products.

Yeah, I'd rather ride a motorcycle built by Yamaha than by ANY other keyboard manufacturer!

[Jim Alfredson]

Man this thread is kind of depressing. It's not anyone's fault it's just how things are, everyone brings up valid points. I fear for the future, gigging musicians are becoming a thing of the past in some places. The phrase "bedroom producers" is kind of scary because it seems things are heading there.

 

I'm not worried because, to extrapolate on my earlier post, the current crop of instruments can do amazing things. How much more do you need? Even if Yamaha completely abandoned the high-end workstation market (which I don't think they will), we still have 30+ years of their products floating around. Ditto for the other bigs like Korg and Roland.

 

I look at what the Motif XF can do and it's just incredible. Who is going to max out that capability?

[J. Dan]

It's too bad we even have to make jokes about it from a company that as wide as it is deep like Yamaha. Some of us here really like their products.

Yeah, I'd rather ride a motorcycle built by Yamaha than by ANY other keyboard manufacturer!

 

Yeah, but it's Harley clone isn't as good as some of the others.

[Tusker]

Ever since the the Motif line and now the Kronos line have dominated the workstation synth market ... many of us have felt this is as good as it needs to be, for a society which habitually listens to music at mp3/youtube quality.

 

That could make a practical argument for why Yamaha should not come out with another high end workstation ... but the psychology of Japanese industry structure argues otherwise, I feel. The most powerful companies in an industry are expected to lead the way with the highest quality and specifications ... it's a type of industrial noblesse oblige and I don't see Yamaha shirking that responsibility.

[Brettymike]

It's too bad we even have to make jokes about it from a company that as wide as it is deep like Yamaha. Some of us here really like their products.

Yeah, I'd rather ride a motorcycle built by Yamaha than by ANY other keyboard manufacturer!

 

Yeah, but it's Harley clone isn't as good as some of the others.

 

They have had to lower the bar to make it like a Harley.

Yamaha make some of the finest machines and rocket ships on the planet. They are an Awesome company , not many around like them that are so versatile and successful.

 

Brett

[J. Dan]

http://i.imgur.com/jDEYwbZ.jpg

[dsetto]

In a nutshell:

What do you guys think will happen with Flash memory in a Yamaha successor? Based on all we've seen thus far.

 

---

The long-winded backstory ...

 

I'm going to look at electronic keyboard history until now, to hear what you guys think we're headed regarding flash memory. (Correct me where I'm wrong.) The organ branches into mellotron & synthesizer. There are also the electro-mechanicals. Yamaha comes in at the end there with the CP series. The synthesizer tries to emulate acoustic instruments. The oscillator goes digital. Digital front-analog back hybrids. The DX series brings very expressive control, with higher frequency timbres. But, then, the mellotron approach is reinterpreted in the rompler/sampler. Rompler rules the roost. User-samples remain. Synthesis remains, intertwined. Becomes all digital. Physical modeling synthesis. Modeling for analog synthesis, organs, pianos is explored, and developed. Analog synthesis returns. 2008, Great Recession. By 2010, Yamaha goes deep with user-placed variable "rom". With simple & effective synthesis, with massive layerying possibilities. This is based on Parallel-NOR FlashROM, with access time less than 110ns. (http://www.mutec-net.com/product_fmc-567.php#data) Simultaneously, analog synthesis is fully expressed. Modular to polyphonic. Hybrids, VA's, piano & organ modeling. And, even newly fabricated traditional electro-mechanicals. 2011, Kronos - brings VA's, modeling, ram & disk streaming sampling in one board- to a larger audience. 2014, Yamaha puts flash expansion in middle tier "production synthesizer". 2014, Forte puts non-user accessible 16GB flash in a keyboard. Around 2014, a 3rd party doubles the available Flash memory for Yamaha's boards. 2015, Yamaha does a little synthesis cheer. (Including "Sequential" goodwill.)

 

Equipment & features come & go. Related to us (consumers), and trends. Striving for authenticity & portability, to serve expresssion, for communication seem to be amongst the core drivers.

 

Right now, there is a very good mature, effective, fast workflow for the sample-centric organization/synthesis function of the Motif XF. In Voice mode, when you are editing one aspect, and you select another element, it's right at the same parameter. You can quickly view 1 oscillator details, or 4 oscillator views. You can quickly, mute or change levels of the oscillators. You can quickly tweak filter settings, amp settings. The various pages associated with each, are shared across the board. ES people: is the control of the synthesis boards decent?

 

I wonder if a competitive synthesis could be integrated into the existing button-screen workflow? I wonder if it's worthwhile tossing that workflow development.

 

But to my main point:

Flash memory. Looking backwards, I can see the arc that brought us to the Motif XF. And the flash memory. Earlier someone wrote, "Mo' Mo." I kind of hope that they continue on the path they are on, rather than abandoning it. I would love for them to somehow, beef up the synthesis component, but within the philosophy they have. And, I suppose that means, Mo flash memory. It could mean a separate synthesizer. But, I haven't paid attention long enough, to know when they've had that much diversity. Right now, there seems to be the synthesizer, the stage piano, (& I suppose the arranger). Will they split their synthesizer line?

 

I hope they don't drop the flash memory approach. I would imagine when they introduced it, they weren't planning to have it be around for only 1 generation. They saw it as their approach to their interpretation of the synthesizer.

 

My fantasy wish would be the Motif XF with 8 analog filters. And deeper fantasy CV gate out for pads. (However, velocity sensitivity is lost there.) And deeper modulation possibilities, and greater LFO variety at the element level in Voice mode. (a few more LFO wave options.) I'm still working at the Voice level. Once I go to the Performance level, or even I believe a Master-Mixing thing, I will likely be able to incorporate significantly greater, independent modulation. However, that's with greater complexity.

 

On weight: lighter weight of the 8 would be cool. But, some folks have expressed that their very old Motif's are in great condition. That, and keeping the action inside stable, is probably more important than weight. We'll see how the CP4 holds up over time. I wonder if the dimensions are necessary for longer throw keys? But, then again, CP4 feels good.

[piano39]

Well Said, dsetto. You make a good point about the flash memory.

I might add, There is something to the workflow on the Motif XF-- It takes a bit to get the hang of it, but once you "get it", it's fantastic.

 

I, for one am hoping that Yamaha continues the evolution of the Motif, and doesn't abandon the whole thing.

 

The Kronos may or may not be better than the Motif- I don't know. A few months ago, I suggested that their should be an objective 3rd party that does in depth comparisons between Motif vs Kronos vs etc. I was vilified on this forum for suggesting it.

[David Emm]

... they're trying to figure out a way to make physical modeling profitable by "dumbing it down" for the EDM crowd while still drawing profitable unit sales with its unique sound and behaviors. It'd be a high selling point in a workstation if the UI had the greaze. With PM, its still a synth, but it also requires some investment in technique beyond mere key-pressing. If they find a sweet spot between simplicity and expressiveness, voila, Next Big Thing time. I love my PM synth. Its like jousting with a worthwhile woman who only fights with you 15% of the time, which is a rational balance.

[ElmerJFudd]

Data from US market sales between '04 and '13 shows the trend. "Renewed fascination with retro analog synths". Synths are trending up (I'm guessing this is analog synths as well as VAs which purport to sound like analog synths). ROMplers are trending down. Cheap keyboards are down as keyboard controllers spiked up, leveled off and have started to fall. More expensive keyboards dropped big in '07-'09 during the recession. Improved in '10 but have yet to recover to '05 levels. Rhythm Machines are spiraling down I guess as Maschine and the like are up.

 

40 Years of Yamaha Synthesizers is clearly a beach-head as Yamaha adapts to the trends... The behemoth was slower to shift than Korg and Roland. As well as all the rest who are benefitting from a change in tastes (Dave Smith, Access, Nord, Moog, Oberheim, Novation, Waldorf, Arturia, etc.).

 

Expect a flagship with greater focus on synthesis (hopefully at least leaving the sample libraries that are doing such a great job with certain things). And synth-centric "trickle-down" offerings in each of the price tiers.

 

At least that's my theory. What do you guys think?

 

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pichosterforme/US_Keyboard_Synths.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pichosterforme/US_PortableKeyboards.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pichosterforme/US_ElectronicPianosAndOrgans.jpg

[miden]

Nice data there, thx for posting it up

[HammondDave]

You would think that manufacturers would look at this business analysis and put their eggs in the right basket. The future is not in hardware clones, but in software emulators and controller.

[NuSkoolTone]

 

Very interesting points. I have to agree that Yamaha is pretty much staking out the high end, but so many younger musicians are going for tweaking cheaply made keyboards that sound "pretty good".

 

Look at Mainstage, hundreds of great sounds for $29! Look at the VR09 (yes Craig, I had to bring it up). Young (and older) keyboardists compromise playing a super crappy keyboard (IMHO) so that Roland can keep the street price under $1K.

 

And who needs sampling or sequencing when you can do it all on your iPad with a few inexpensive APs? It's only a matter of time when you can accomplish most of what you can do on a hardware workstation with an iPad.

 

I hope that Yamaha stays in the mix with a new workstation... same for Korg and Roland. Personally, I prefer to work behind a powerful full sized workstation with an excellent keyboard and quality switches, buttons and faders. The problem is that most of the musicians in the money spending demographic prefers value, and will compromise ergonomics.

 

I'd also add that by these MI companies not providing successors that move forward they are pushing me TOWARDS an iPad and a decent controller. At least for my second synth.

 

Seriously, if iPad apps can talk to each other and integrate in a live environment that works then one day it's Game Over! There is still a ways to go with quality and processing power, but my current iPad Air2 already has me rethinking some things. Between the portability and the cost, it's a VERY strong argument. Also, that new MS Surface 3 is looking better and better as well!

 

And not to start a XF versus Kronos battle, but there's plenty of things the XF does very well and in some cases better than Kronos (guitars for one). The Motif arps are a huge wealth of inspiring music content that help fill in parts for songs in instrument-specific styles or be used to create an arranger-like experience. The build quality of the Motif series is top notch (my Motif ES is still in primo condition and a joy to play).

As an owner of both a Motif XS and Kronos. I agree. However, because Korg has opened up the sampling with loop free disk streaming one can make libraries to adress these weak sots fairly easily. In fact, I'm planning to do a guitar library. At the very least I could sample the Motif fully chromatically! Granted this stuff takes work, but the fact you don't need to worry about looping is a WHOLE new ball game. The Arps in the Motif are also great. However much of this could be duplicated in Karma provided you've bought the software.

 

With these things in mind, I've been looking to move on from my Motif for 2 years leaving the Kronos as the center of my rig.

[Spider76]

Yeah, I'd rather ride a motorcycle built by Yamaha than by ANY other keyboard manufacturer!

 

Except maybe Suzuki

[stoken6]

I thought we had established that motorcycle-Suzuki was a different company from Hammond-Suzuki? Or is my memory playing tricks?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Brettymike]

The Motif ES has done the best job I have ever heard of sounding like waves on the ocean .

We saw these guy's live back in 2006 , and it was a million times better than this YT recording I can assure you > https://youtu.be/RPTvkIwEsB0

 

Brett

[Outkaster]

Which part.

 

Brett

 

Both parts , really explain it!

[Tusker]

I thought we had established that motorcycle-Suzuki was a different company from Hammond-Suzuki? Or is my memory playing tricks?

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Mike, I was curious about this question ... so I svengled it. I found two different companies in two different industries.

 

https://www.suzuki-music.co.jp/en/esgif.htm

 

(musical instruments)

 

http://www.globalsuzuki.com/corporate/outline/pdf/company_profile.pdf

 

(cars, motorcycles)

 

They are both headquartered in Hamamatsu, the 16th largest (medium-sized) city, which also happens to be where Kawai, Roland, and Yamaha are headquartered. (Honda motor company was founded in Hamamatsu but relocated the headquarters to Tokyo. They continue to have a plant in Hamamatsu along with several plants elsewhere.) The two Suzuki companies could be related, but if they are the relationship is not something they are emphasizing in their ownership structure. You could easily imagine that if one has some spare capital and is looking for an industry to enter ... Hamamatsu would have lots of experienced talent in musical instrument manufacturing: it would be a logical expansion for an entrepreneur.

 

However, Suzuki is one of the 5 most popular surnames in Japan, representing 1.8 million people (out of a total population of bout 130 million.) It's original meaning is said to be ... "rice straw bale." Suzuki would be equivalent to "Jones", the fifth most popular surname in the US.

 

Sometimes googling is like the movie Blowup. You think you know more, but you still don't have the answer to your original question.

 

Cheers, Jerry