Stereo amps and powered speakers -do players here prefer it?

[cphollis]

Hammonddave

 

I'm guessing you'd potentially be a convert if you hear a clonewheel through a decent Leslie sim and into the SSv3 -- even without a sub. Jeez! It was a religious experience for me -- almost like a miniature leslie.

 

Then again, if you're hauling around real B3s and Leslies to gigs, I'm not worthy

[Synthaholic]

EV went through a huge change a few years ago when they started to build their speakers in China. I used to own a pair of SXA360's (made in USA) that I loved, but stupidly sold them. The problem with those speakers that their high end components and their built in the USA pedigree forced EV to sell them for around $1000 each! That was a problem as they were competing against QSC and other more budget options. So EV stopped the US production of their lower end products and are now almost exclusively made in China. That being said, I am VERY impressed that they don't sound like cheap speakers. In fact, they blow QSC out of the water! Many here agree.

 

Now for the SS3... Many musicians on the board swear by them. I suggest that you buy one, try it out, and return it if you don't like it. Personally, I am very happy with what I gig with (you never know when the guitar player will get crazy and start cranking up his volume). It all depends on the kinds of gigs you are playing. I need a big bottom end for my organ (please, no jokes). The bigger the better. When I auditioned the SS3 at NAMM I did not "feel" that bass. It's very difficult for one 8" speaker to produce that air. So I would need a sub with it. The speaker is heavy already (compared to the EV's) and schlepping a sub with it would be a hassle (and much more $$$). This is why I have not yearned to buy a SS3.

 

 

Usually I am playing beach bar/restaurant type gigs, where they don't want it too loud, and I use just the JBL 510s, and they do fine. Whenever I need more bottom I add my front-loaded JBL 2226H 600 watt 15", with a crossover to dial out the mids. It's a monster speaker, and definitely does the trick. I just don't know if the SS would replace the 510s which, even though they only have 10" speakers, cover the bass well enough for a low volume, restaurant setting.

[HammondDave]

Hammonddave

 

I'm guessing you'd potentially be a convert if you hear a clonewheel through a decent Leslie sim and into the SSv3 -- even without a sub. Jeez! It was a religious experience for me -- almost like a miniature leslie.

 

Then again, if you're hauling around real B3s and Leslies to gigs, I'm not worthy

 

Maybe you are correct. I am just real happy with my sound now.

 

No, I am not hauling real hammonds and Leslie's to gigs. Either they are there as a back line, or I use a clone, Vent, and my EV's for more casual bar gigs.

 

I think another consideration away from the SS3 is that I really like an aggressive, biting organ sound. It needs a lot of bottom end and a lot of punch to reproduce the sound I like.

[Markay]

Back to the OP. The first decision you have make is whether you plan to perform in mono or stereo? Just because the board you use has stereo sound doesn't mean you have to perform in stereo.

 

I use software only and have sound output in mono. The logistics of setting up two stage monitors for stereo, and being able to place these so I am in the sweet spot on a cramped stage overwhelms me.

 

The only way I would consider stereo is with a one box solution like the SS3. But then I still need a mono feed for FOH and will my stereo patches consistently mix down to mono satisfactorily for FOH? Dunno, makes my head hurt just thinking about it.

 

This is for cover band material so I am covering everything from AP through to synths to short samples. The Norton 650 sample I trigger in Would I Lie To You would sound great crossing the stage in stereo, but I would need a sub if I were to go stereo with a SS3 for that sound.

 

Stereo would be nice at home but then I would need to set up duplicate concerts, one in mono for gigging and one in stereo for home and that would take more time than I have available.

 

Plenty of food for thought on this thread. Are you up for the stereo challenge?

 

[Six-string-man]

I perform with a pair of EV ZLX12P's.

 

Good speakers for sure with great low end, but I did not like them at all for AP's.

 

 

 

I have been preaching this on here for over a year now, yet every time the "what speaker?" question arises, people fall over themselves to type "ZLX 12P".

 

For decent AP sound, look at EV ELX 112P, or Line 6 L2T for reasonably priced speakers. I haven't tried the DBR, but the DXR are passable, and still way better than the ZLX.

 

 

SSM

 

[CEB]

Stereo can cause you a lot of problems. Especially with EPs and other sounds with a lot of effects implemented. I'm running stereo but mono is way easier. Even if you run mono I would run a pair of monitors. I just like two. A pair moves more air, gives you better bass and headroom.

[Aidan]

Nothing like that mixture of respect and relief on the face of the sound guy when you hand him a mono feed direct from your DI box.

[WesG]

HammondDave, you need to audition Yorkville NX55Ps. More bottom end from a 12" speaker than anything else I know of. The horn is also really sweet, does a great job on vocals and presumably organ (I still run old school for organ). The speaker is EQd very flat right out of the box.

 

Wes

[Joe Muscara]

However, I wish I could check out a SS3 before I bought it because I'm pretty curious about it, with or without a sub.

Check out this thread, see if anyone is near you and is willing to let you try theirs.

 

If you're near Fort Wayne, Indiana you can try it at the exclusive U.S. distributor, Sweetwater (call ahead first) or if you're in Southern California you can contact Aspen himself at Center Point Stereo and see if you can set up something with him.

[HammondDave]

 

This is for cover band material so I am covering everything from AP through to synths to short samples. The Norton 650 sample I trigger in Would I Lie To You would sound great crossing the stage in stereo, but I would need a sub if I were to go stereo with a SS3 for that sound.

 

 

 

From my understanding (and I may be wrong), the SS3 does not produce "True" stereo, but more precisely a simulated stereo effect. Meaning that not everyone in the audience would hear the left side of the piano on the left and the right side on the right. Or if there was a sound that panned across from left to right, you may not hear that on stage (or in the audience).

 

This type of simulated stereo can be a powerful effect for rotating speaker effects and for greater aural depth in the sound, but for creating a truly accurate stereo sound field, the SS3 may not be what it seems to be.

[cphollis]

 

This is for cover band material so I am covering everything from AP through to synths to short samples. The Norton 650 sample I trigger in Would I Lie To You would sound great crossing the stage in stereo, but I would need a sub if I were to go stereo with a SS3 for that sound.

 

 

 

From my understanding (and I may be wrong), the SS3 does not produce "True" stereo, but more precisely a simulated stereo effect. Meaning that not everyone in the audience would hear the left side of the piano on the left and the right side on the right. Or if there was a sound that panned across from left to right, you may not hear that on stage (or in the audience).

 

This type of simulated stereo can be a powerful effect for rotating speaker effects and for greater aural depth in the sound, but for creating a truly accurate stereo sound field, the SS3 may not be what it seems to be.

 

This is true. If you want real-deal hard-panned L/R stereo effects, the SSv3 is not what you want. That being said, so many stereo effects are about presence and aural motion vs. specific directionality: chorus, reverb, leslie, ping-pong, etc. All of those are brilliant through the SSv3.

[Markay]

Interesting point. I think Aspen said the sum and difference algorithm maintained the left right location but by mixing with centre speaker threw the stereo positioning well out into and around the room.

 

It would be interesting to hear an orchestral piece played through the SS3, and see if the precise positioning of each instrument section location is retained when played back through the SS3. Might post this question on the SS3 thread.

 

Of academic interest to me, if I get one it will be primarily used to re-create the illusion of a rotary speaker at home.

[HammondDave]

 

This is for cover band material so I am covering everything from AP through to synths to short samples. The Norton 650 sample I trigger in Would I Lie To You would sound great crossing the stage in stereo, but I would need a sub if I were to go stereo with a SS3 for that sound.

 

 

 

From my understanding (and I may be wrong), the SS3 does not produce "True" stereo, but more precisely a simulated stereo effect. Meaning that not everyone in the audience would hear the left side of the piano on the left and the right side on the right. Or if there was a sound that panned across from left to right, you may not hear that on stage (or in the audience).

 

This type of simulated stereo can be a powerful effect for rotating speaker effects and for greater aural depth in the sound, but for creating a truly accurate stereo sound field, the SS3 may not be what it seems to be.

 

This is true. If you want real-deal hard-panned L/R stereo effects, the SSv3 is not what you want. That being said, so many stereo effects are about presence and aural motion vs. specific directionality: chorus, reverb, leslie, ping-pong, etc. All of those are brilliant through the SSv3.

 

 

Which would make sense considering how many of those effects are created. Introducing phase differences would exaggerate those effects. When I first heard of CPS, I immediately thought of those "simulated stereo" switches on old television sets. That circuit would use a similar off-phase signal through multiple speakers to fool the listener that they would be hearing "stereo". I am sure that Aspen's circuit is much more elegant than that, especially considering the side facing speakers. But the principle may be the same.

[cphollis]

 

This is for cover band material so I am covering everything from AP through to synths to short samples. The Norton 650 sample I trigger in Would I Lie To You would sound great crossing the stage in stereo, but I would need a sub if I were to go stereo with a SS3 for that sound.

 

 

 

From my understanding (and I may be wrong), the SS3 does not produce "True" stereo, but more precisely a simulated stereo effect. Meaning that not everyone in the audience would hear the left side of the piano on the left and the right side on the right. Or if there was a sound that panned across from left to right, you may not hear that on stage (or in the audience).

 

This type of simulated stereo can be a powerful effect for rotating speaker effects and for greater aural depth in the sound, but for creating a truly accurate stereo sound field, the SS3 may not be what it seems to be.

 

This is true. If you want real-deal hard-panned L/R stereo effects, the SSv3 is not what you want. That being said, so many stereo effects are about presence and aural motion vs. specific directionality: chorus, reverb, leslie, ping-pong, etc. All of those are brilliant through the SSv3.

 

 

Which would make sense considering how many of those effects are created. Introducing phase differences would exaggerate those effects. When I first heard of CPS, I immediately thought of those "simulated stereo" switches on old television sets. That circuit would use a similar off-phase signal through multiple speakers to fool the listener that they would be hearing "stereo". I am sure that Aspen's circuit is much more elegant than that, especially considering the side facing speakers. But the principle may be the same.

 

I'm not smart enough to comment on the science behind each approach without getting in trouble, but I can certainly say the audio effects aren't remotely comparable.

 

I do remember those "stereo effect" switches. Also, I had experience with the JC-120 and the Motion Sound KBRs that had decent "stereo effect" circuits. Nice, but ... not really that useful.

 

The SSv3 is in an entirely different league in terms of stereo effect. It's rich, enveloping and ominpresent - as long as you feed it decent stereo content.

 

Examples? I feed a mono-ish AP to the SSv3, with almost no stereo content. The sound largely emits from the front 8" driver. Nothing special, but adequate. Now add a bit of chorus or stereo reverb on the same voice, and all of the sudden it's floating everywhere in the room, thanks to the side-firing unit.

 

Same thing happens when I cut in a leslie sim on a B3 clonewheel, then cut it out. Without the leslie, I have essentially a mono signal, so no magic from the SSv3. It's a ballsy 8" front facing speaker with wide dispersion. Spin the leslie, and it's like there's a sonic blender in the room -- the sound appears to be coming from everywhere.

 

I think everyone who owns one struggles to describe exactly how it works and how it sounds. But we all have grown to like what it does, as it's quite unique and can't be easily replicated using a pair of self-powered PAs.

 

The only thing that comes close is when I plop a big self-powered PA unit stage left and stage right. The audience gets a great stereo soundfield, but (a) I get only one channel, and (b) it's very directional compared to what the SSv3 does.

[16251]

I immediately thought of those "simulated stereo" switches on old television sets. That circuit would use a similar off-phase signal through multiple speakers to fool the listener that they would be hearing "stereo". I am sure that Aspen's circuit is much more elegant than that, especially considering the side facing speakers. But the principle may be the same.

 

I think it's more than those "simulated stereo" switches though I agree that it's not stereo like listening to the Beatles with headphones. As a consumer of amplification you have to ask yourself, am I just interested in hearing true R/L stereo near my equipment or do I want everyone in the room to hear something better than R/L can offer. You don't have the sweet spot like headphones at a live gig.

 

Acoustic piano is a good example. Only the piano player hears the bass on left, etc. The audience, IMO, never hears R/L pan, even through a giant stereo system.

[HammondDave]

Lets face it. 90% of the gigs we play are performed in rooms with crappy acoustics and even worse FOH systems. Many of us are weekend warriors who feel lucky to play any gigs at all, and all we want is to sound as good as possible to as many people as possible.

 

I have seen it all on this forum. I don't think that Aspen is selling snake oil here. He created a product that many people are sold on, God bless 'em...

 

I say try it, and if you like it... keep it. If you don't, return it.

[Markay]

IIRC the simulated stereo devices took a mono signal and created a simulated stereo signal. The SS3 is taking a true stereo signal and creating a stereo sound using a left, right and front facing speakers in the one enclosure. The key difference is you get stereo from one box, not the conventional two.

[MotiDave]

I wish I could hear one at a brick n mortar store without buying it ... it is intriguiing to me. A few probing questions, I welcome the ridicule along with actual responses

 

Listening to his video, if the signal is pure mono (e.g. alot of synth sounds), then sound only comes out of the front speaker. only if there's stereo signal (either from channels or effects) does the side speaker kick in.

 

I wonder about that. 90% of my patches are mono except for effects. i'd like to hear how that sounds with the main mono coming from the front and only the effect (L-R as he calls it) emanating from the side. If I run a clean mono signal, the front is powered by 100w, is that enough volume to compete with my obnoxiously loud rocker band mates?

 

the side "stereo effect" speaker is only on one side, is there a difference if you're on one side vs another? I saw someone laying it on its side, was the "side" speaker pointed up?

 

Do you guys with the SS3 that also run FOH - do you use a mixer, or DI splitter, or ? Do u just run mono to the front or dual L/R channels and hope FOH pans accordingly, or ?

 

 

[Danny Linguini]

IIRC the simulated stereo devices took a mono signal and created s simulated stereo signal. The SS3 is taking a true stereo signal and creating a stereo sound using a left, right and front facing speakers in the one enclosure. The key difference is you get stereo from one box, not the conventional two.

When trying to understand what the SS3 does, you have to forget everything you know about traditional stereo. The SS3 takes what's common between left and right (L+R) and shoots that out the front speaker cluster; then it takes what's different between left and right (L-R), and shoots those out the side speaker. The side speaker is out of phase with the front, but it's also positioned to project that sound out both sides of the box. As I understand it, because I haven't actually heard one myself, instead of a left and right sound image, you get a different kind of depth of sound.

[J. Dan]

When I read the original post, I misunderstood and thought he was looking for advice on stereo keyboard amps vs a pair of powered speakers.

 

So in addition to that discussion, we have the ongoing stereo/mono debate....

 

Here's the cliff notes I've summarized in my head after pages after pages of debate over the years......

 

1). There are 2 different things to consider: front of house, and monitoring

2) if FOH is mono, you have to consider if you want to design your patches to sound good in mono and monitor in mono so that you can adjust based in what the audience is hearing, or if your attitude is "screw the audience" I want it to sound good to me, so that I'M inspired, and if it sounds worse to them, I don't care.

3) if FOH is stereo and/or you don't care about FOH and you want stereo monitoring, following is my assessment:

 

Unless it's an extremely loud band, the space station seems to be a hit....potentially with the addition of a sub.

 

IF I was running stereo, the reason MAY have an issue with that is twofold:

1) usually the rest of the band is loud and I want to hear more of me in my little corner of the stage. If the rest of the band hears more of me, they're just going to turn up even louder, defeating the purpose. I'd rather have it contained/directed towards me

2) a big part of my monitor is vocal monitor....which is monitor and again, particularly to avoid feedback while being louder in my ears than anywhere else, something like the K10 works well.

 

Ideal solution: IEM's, but only if everything is mic' duo and you have control over your own mix.

 

Many applications especially without vocal monitoring, SS is probably the next choice.

 

Given the caveats above, something like a pair of powered monitors would be next.

 

 

 

But for me, mono with a single K10 is what I use when I can't use my IEM's

[Doug Robinson]

At the outdoor gig I mentioned, I went back and forth between playing my SK1 and SS3 combo; and a recent-Roland weighted keyboard through a KB500 which then ran the FOH (all the other keyboardists were curious about my setup, so when they were sitting in I always offered to play the Roland).

 

We can discuss these things academically of course, but on an emotional level it felt like someone had thrown a wet blanket over my soul when I tried to dig into the Roland/KB500 setup. A month earlier and I would have been mildly grateful that it was loud and barky enough to cut through the rest of the players. I would have registered that the sound wasn't exactly pleasing to the others or myself but I wouldn't have cared because what were my alternatives?

 

But going back to my setup, I felt like I was providing a naturally atmospheric-- as opposed to directional--sound that wrapped itself around the band AND the audience. It is VERY different in that way, and it takes a little getting used to--I used to think of 'being loud enough' as simply being heard "well enough" as opposed to being enjoyable to hear.

 

I used to use a personal stereo P.A. which was better-sounding than the Roland, Yamaha and motion Sound (2 models) I tested in my home. This got me through 10 years of gigs. Next up was to order a pair of powered monitors even though positioning was going to be a problem--who was going to hear the coolest sounds possible from my rig? Me? The band? Or the audience? In some settings, I would have had to choose. Having done that a little, I usually chose best for me, so I would play better and inspire the band, which hopefully inspired the audience.

 

But since I've been playing with the SS3, I barely think about stuff like that. I know the other band members are stunned by how well they can hear the keys, even when I'm not playing loudly. I know from walking around the dance floor or the audience that the further away you are, the more impressive the clear and present sound is, so far true up to about 200 feet in fact.

 

I've simply stopped looking (brooding) about keyboard amplification systems. Now I feel like I'm making music.

 

The day may come when I feel the need to add a sub, but it's hard to imagine--I don't really enjoy playing so loud onstage that it hurts. It seems to me that the volume of even the r and b/blues projects I'm involved with right now is plenty loud. I don't play left hand bass, but when I play New Orleans-flavored funky piano, I of course have an active left hand at times (other times, I look like I've only got a right hand in videos!). Regardless, so far I've never felt there was anything lacking but a little more talent.

[Brettymike]

IIRC the simulated stereo devices took a mono signal and created s simulated stereo signal. The SS3 is taking a true stereo signal and creating a stereo sound using a left, right and front facing speakers in the one enclosure. The key difference is you get stereo from one box, not the conventional two.

When trying to understand what the SS3 does, you have to forget everything you know about traditional stereo. The SS3 takes what's common between left and right (L+R) and shoots that out the front speaker cluster; then it takes what's different between left and right (L-R), and shoots those out the side speaker. The side speaker is out of phase with the front, but it's also positioned to project that sound out both sides of the box. As I understand it, because I haven't actually heard one myself, instead of a left and right sound image, you get a different kind of depth of sound.

 

 

That's a good brief synopsis how it works Mr Bear

It's still a mystery to me how it sounds so damn good , and works so well, sort of like the "Bumble Bee shouldn't be able to Fly" mystery .

 

Brett

[HammondDave]

It's pretty amazing what out of phase frequencies can do. I read somewhere that it can also sterilize children.

[The Real MC]

I've been gigging since 1981.

 

Club/bar gigs aren't worth the trouble for stereo. They are poor acoustic environments and small enough that anyplace outside the middle (usually where people dance) you lose the stereo image.

 

One of the few places where stereo works is theater. Theaters are large enough with good acoustics that most seats are good enough for stereo processing. I am going stereo for a show that is performing Pink Floyd "The Wall" and there are a LOT of keyboard parts. Plus I am competing with two guitars in the full band. The stereo FX - which are my own design - are subtle and meant to get the keyboards heard with the guitars without cranking the volume. And the stereo FX is such that you do not need to be in the "sweet spot".

[MotiDave]

your Wall project sounds awesome, but your gig rig for that project is insanely maniacal! few to none of us have the fortitude or ambition to replicate your passion . I hope some videographic evidence finds its way to this forum in due time of this project success.

[DanL]

We run our PF tribute band in stereo too, it's one of the things a sound company has to be able to provide for us. I run my keys in stereo and I trigger all the sound effects which are also in stereo. 2 of the guitar players have stereo rigs as well.

 

I agree that stereo in a club isn't always good- but you can still run your keys in stereo in your own monitors and enjoy the sounds as they were meant to be played. If that inspires you to play better then the people hearing your mono feed thru FOH, or your stage volume from your monitors, are going to get a better show.

[dsetto]

This snark went missing on the recent Yamaha thread asking for it. OP, sleepngbear had a recent personal amplification thread that's excellent. He gave you the summary.

 

I myself am very curious about this subject. I have not yet dared to start a new thread on it. I am glad that KC has its first post-SSv3 mono vs stereo group summary.

 

To future OP's:

This forum is rich. They are self-policing. I much prefer what happens here than the plummeting to unbelievable depths of senselessness that occurs in many other forums. It is my nature to approach this collective wisdom with respect.

 

To the OP:

On one hand, I respect you just going for it, & subsequently standing up for yourself. However, I assume what ticked people off was

I tried to search for this but I didn't come up with any specific threads.

Posed with the same concern, I found a wealth of this on KC.

 

And while, on one hand, this is reasonable.

I guess I spend too much time playing to have enough time to spend hanging out here and reading every thread.

Unfortunately, this places the time spent onto the rich contributors. They don't get paid for this. I honestly think there should be a 1-800-KC-consult hotline, via Keyboard Magazine. It's vetted. From the top. There's a pool of consulters, so someone's always reachable in one form or other.

 

[Longtcopp]

Dsetto and others: points taken and will be more careful in the future. Thanks for the feedback.

 

Despite the snark, this thread turned out to be hugely helpful for me. I learned a lot about amp/speaker preferences, stereo vs. mono, and this forum. In the past, I wasn't often in a position where people who knew a lot about this stuff ended up around my rig during tours so connecting with you all is truly valuable for me. As dsetto mentions above, I have much respect for your time and experience.

 

I'm travelling through Indiana and also have some scoring work in my hometown of LA so I'll definitely check out SS3 when I get to one or the other. Looking forward to it.

 

Thanks again.

[spazzkey]

I wish I could hear one at a brick n mortar store without buying it ... it is intriguiing to me. A few probing questions, I welcome the ridicule along with actual responses

 

Listening to his video, if the signal is pure mono (e.g. alot of synth sounds), then sound only comes out of the front speaker. only if there's stereo signal (either from channels or effects) does the side speaker kick in.

 

I wonder about that. 90% of my patches are mono except for effects. i'd like to hear how that sounds with the main mono coming from the front and only the effect (L-R as he calls it) emanating from the side. If I run a clean mono signal, the front is powered by 100w, is that enough volume to compete with my obnoxiously loud rocker band mates?

 

the side "stereo effect" speaker is only on one side, is there a difference if you're on one side vs another? I saw someone laying it on its side, was the "side" speaker pointed up?

 

Do you guys with the SS3 that also run FOH - do you use a mixer, or DI splitter, or ? Do u just run mono to the front or dual L/R channels and hope FOH pans accordingly, or ?

 

 

I use a mixer to run double tiered - last gig sound guy inserted a couple of DI's between the mixer and the SS -

 

it was a very loud grateful dead tribute event - the SS was in the back corner stage left, next to one of the drummers - drummer was stoked to be hearing me so clearly but ended up putting a cymbal cover over the right side port that was facing him -I will definitely be bringing a baffle next time... I could hear myself clearly - front man said he could hear me but I could have been louder...

 

I bought mine sight unseen, unheard and have never looked back - as far as I am concerned, even though as someone mentioned, it is only an amp - it makes the whole stereo vs mono discussion moot...

[Doerfler]

I bought mine sight unseen, unheard and have never looked back - as far as I am concerned, even though as someone mentioned, it is only an amp - it makes the whole stereo vs mono discussion moot...

 

hoping the same for me, haven't seen or heard one and should have it in 3 weeks maybe? You changed your profile name, Klaus, but your location is still the same. Lucky you.