Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[Stephen S]

I think that the SS has one front-firing speaker system and one side firing speaker, so the results should be representative. I happened to use Fulcrum Acoustic FA28ac's, but I think that the effect is somewhat independent of the speakers that you would use, up to a point. Smaller cone sizes may work a bit better as they are less directional than larger speakers so they should spread the sound a bit better.

 

I positioned the speakers directly adjacent to each other (almost touching) and aimed them at 90 degrees relative to each other. You can use the master L/R mixer outputs to balance the mid and side signals to taste.

 

I just did this as a quick mock up to get a feeling for the result. There are lots of refinements that you could make; adjust the EQ controls on the side speaker relative to the main speaker, etc. The SS3 wraps all of this stuff into one package which avoids having to tinker with all of this stuff. But, if you wanted to get a similar effect with much higher output speakers, you could do it in this fashion. Of course, it requires fiddling and tweaking....

[I-missRichardTee]

Hi,

I'm still trying to work out what sub I'd like to buy to use with my SS (it'll arrive in July sometime..from Thomann in Germany).

 

Regards

Niven8.

 

 

Jazzmammalian ( Bob ) Mentioned his comparison between a $2000 Infinity Sub and a $300 sub. He said there was a world of difference. The music involved all sorts of hugely demanding effects.. loud ammunition explosions etc.

I mention this because subs are characterized as dealing with such low frequency sound ( so it does not matter the quality ) , and only barely turned on ( implying quality sub is barely noticeable ) , etc. The QUALITY of the sub issue, seems to disappear.

Not only price, but weight, and form factor enter into this problem.

 

Bob, can you give more info, or did I just bypass it? If I did, sorry bout that!

[Bossbandbob]

Keys,this sounds like fun to try! Any way to do this with a powered mixer with no pan controls? I have a Yamaha EMX312sc in my studio. I can probably reverse the polarity on input 4 with cabling. I also have pair of powered monitors.

[Brettymike]

No, the quality of the sub never disappears.

Those flash Infinities sound incredible at all volumes - have you never heard them?.

Brett

[MalH]

I think that the SS has one front-firing speaker system and one side firing speaker, so the results should be representative.

 

Correct, but my understanding is that the SS side speaker sends an out-of-phase signal out the other side of almost equal amplitude, which a standard PA speaker won't do. Hence my suggestion to use 2 out-of-phase side speakers.

[I-missRichardTee]

Infinity sounds incredible? What, at 30- 100 hz? I thought those frequencies are as nothing? ( Tongue and cheek there a bit ).

 

I am afraid to ask the weight and price. Is there a lesser model that is not 300 lbs and $2000 ?

[Joe Muscara]

Correct, but my understanding is that the SS side speaker sends an out-of-phase signal out the other side of almost equal amplitude

Wouldn't that be literally the same amplitude?

[Brettymike]

Yep , from about 20hz up (which we feel of course).

Huge speakers and they cost an absolute fortune.

Brett

[roygBiv]

Hey guys

I'm intrigued, but I think you would have to have at least the 2nd, sideways, "perpendicular" speaker be an open back cabinet - to produce the Figure 8 pattern. Not sure how you would do that with a powered PA speaker, those are always enclosed.

 

At least that's how it makes sense to me. And both a Groove Tubes Satellite speaker cabinet I used to have, and my SS3 seem to have the perpendicular speaker in an open-back cabinet configuration. Doubt that Aspenn did that by accident, or to save a few bucks on cabinet material .

 

Anyway, I'm just going by analogy with microphones in a mid-side configuration.

 

Bottom line for me was I figured why not just get the one made by the guy who designed this. As I get older, my patience for tolerating twiddly things on stage is plummeting in an inverse relationship with my appreciation of well made, simple to use gear.

 

Hence my purchase of the SS3

[elif]

Hey guys

I'm intrigued, but I think you would have to have at least the 2nd, sideways, "perpendicular" speaker be an open back cabinet - to produce the Figure 8 pattern. Not sure how you would do that with a powered PA speaker, those are always enclosed.

You'd have to put two back-to-back and run one out of phase with the other. A single free-space driver is probably best. Maybe some time delay could be added compensate for driver spacing but I suppose that would work for the far field only (which is maybe good enough).

[Jazzmammal]

I mention this because subs are characterized as dealing with such low frequency sound ( so it does not matter the quality ) , and only barely turned on ( implying quality sub is barely noticeable ) , etc. The QUALITY of the sub issue, seems to disappear.

 

Tee, quality ALWAYS matters until you reach the 90/50 formula. That's where you can buy 90% of the sound of the best for 50% of the cost. That's where the best bang for the buck lies but if you can afford the very best anyway, fine go for it.

 

My quick take on the history of subs. Nobody heard of a sub until the mid 80's or so. That when surround sound came in and it revolutionized movie soundtracks. Now they could completely isolate the bass track and really make the explosions pop. That meant theaters could use completely separate speaker systems for each freq range and have them spread out all over the theater. At the same time hip hop came in with their huge thumping bass. Those two things caused a complete redefinitioin and redesign of what a bass woofer was. Prior to that a woofer was strictly musical but now they needed a new type of woofer to handle all the action movie stuff plus the hip hop stuff. Hence the invention of the sub woofer. The standard musical woofers are still there and are still being made.

 

This means we need to clarify what we mean when we use the term sub. It's become a generic term but really a true sub is only for the very low but very powerful sub bass stuff. Even the best JBL and Altec 15" Voice of the Theater A7 type of speaker systems were getting overdriven by the new sub bass tracks. This is the same time that Altec went out of business and other companies took over the theater sound market.

 

What that means for this discussion is we're concerned with the musical bass sound, not the special effect or hip hop bass sound. These subs we're talking about like the Behringer and others are not designed to be musical subs, they're designed for EDM and hip hop stuff. Which is why I keep talking about using a real bass amp and not a sub. Look at the freq range. 40-100hz. 40hz is the low E on a piano or 4 string bass guitar, 80hz is the octave above and 100hz is the Ab above that. It only takes a second for a musician to realize there's lots of musical activity going on in that freq range, not just bass. A cheap sub that can only really handle the lower range of that and even then only at moderate power is going to muddy up your sound as soon as you try to push it. Good clean bass requires lots of good clean power and the higher quality the better.

 

Sitting the SS on a good bass amp with a good crossover will give you not only killer clean sound but also lots of headroom. We all know how fat and loud an organ patch can get. You grab the drawbars at the same time you're stomping on the pedal bass and we can overdrive lots of otherwise good speaker systems. It's the bane of our existence. We have to have the best sound system we can afford and even then we get surprised. This is nothing new.

 

This is a long winded answer to your question. You bet your ass that Inifnity sub system with a pair of 15's would sound absolutely killer sitting beneath the SS even if you wern't pushing it, you were just playing at your normal volume. It would sound clear, transparent and just great without blowing everybody's head off. Our problem is to find something that can get us as close to that as we can handle both physically and financially.

 

Bob

[Stephen S]

Nice try, Dave

 

I think that the contribution of the exposed back side of the side woofer is overestimated. The rear radiation of the woofer has a natural low pass filter due to the shadowing by the basket and magnet. Small woofers have naturally wide/omnidirectional response (at lower frequencies) regardless of the fact that the back side is contained within the enclosure.

 

As stated previously, I don't have an SS3 on hand to compare, but my guess is that the result is quite similar. Of course, it won't be identical for a multiplicity of reasons, but there are some interesting pros/cons to each approach.

[HammondDave]

I mention this because subs are characterized as dealing with such low frequency sound ( so it does not matter the quality ) , and only barely turned on ( implying quality sub is barely noticeable ) , etc. The QUALITY of the sub issue, seems to disappear.

 

Tee, quality ALWAYS matters until you reach the 90/50 formula. That's where you can buy 90% of the sound of the best for 50% of the cost. That's where the best bang for the buck lies but if you can afford the very best anyway, fine go for it.

 

My quick take on the history of subs. Nobody heard of a sub until the mid 80's or so. That when surround sound came in and it revolutionized movie soundtracks. Now they could completely isolate the bass track and really make the explosions pop. That meant theaters could use completely separate speaker systems for each freq range and have them spread out all over the theater. At the same time hip hop came in with their huge thumping bass. Those two things caused a complete redefinitioin and redesign of what a bass woofer was. Prior to that a woofer was strictly musical but now they needed a new type of woofer to handle all the action movie stuff plus the hip hop stuff. Hence the invention of the sub woofer. The standard musical woofers are still there and are still being made.

 

This means we need to clarify what we mean when we use the term sub. It's become a generic term but really a true sub is only for the very low but very powerful sub bass stuff. Even the best JBL and Altec 15" Voice of the Theater A7 type of speaker systems were getting overdriven by the new sub bass tracks. This is the same time that Altec went out of business and other companies took over the theater sound market.

 

What that means for this discussion is we're concerned with the musical bass sound, not the special effect or hip hop bass sound. These subs we're talking about like the Behringer and others are not designed to be musical subs, they're designed for EDM and hip hop stuff. Which is why I keep talking about using a real bass amp and not a sub. Look at the freq range. 40-100hz. 40hz is the low E on a piano or 4 string bass guitar, 80hz is the octave above and 100hz is the Ab above that. It only takes a second for a musician to realize there's lots of musical activity going on in that freq range, not just bass. A cheap sub that can only really handle the lower range of that and even then only at moderate power is going to muddy up your sound as soon as you try to push it. Good clean bass requires lots of good clean power and the higher quality the better.

 

Sitting the SS on a good bass amp with a good crossover will give you not only killer clean sound but also lots of headroom. We all know how fat and loud an organ patch can get. You grab the drawbars at the same time you're stomping on the pedal bass and we can overdrive lots of otherwise good speaker systems. It's the bane of our existence. We have to have the best sound system we can afford and even then we get surprised. This is nothing new.

 

This is a long winded answer to your question. You bet your ass that Inifnity sub system with a pair of 15's would sound absolutely killer sitting beneath the SS even if you wern't pushing it, you were just playing at your normal volume. It would sound clear, transparent and just great without blowing everybody's head off. Our problem is to find something that can get us as close to that as we can handle both physically and financially.

 

Bob

 

Excellent explanation, Bob. So I guess you would have to have an outboard crossover with maybe something like a classic Ampeg bass amp/speaker to get that sound. Maybe something like this?

 

http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff374/hammonddave/Ampeg%20Bass%20amp_zpsznvnkdpr.jpg

[Doerfler]

Maybe something like this?

 

those specific Ampeg bass amp models are fn' awsome.

[HammondDave]

Maybe something like this?

 

those specific Ampeg bass amp models are fn' awsome.

 

Yup! My first bass player had one and he had no problem competing with two twin reverbs (2 guitar players) and an Ampeg V4 (me).

 

 

[elif]

Yup! My first bass player had one and he had no problem competing with two twin reverbs (2 guitar players) and an Ampeg V4 (me).

That must be because of his zen-like nature. IIRC B15n? About 30W.

[Jazzmammal]

Oh yeah, baby! Our guy back in the day had one too. All that chrome and the tubes sitting on top looked awesome. That was the go to killer bass rig if the guy could afford it. Wasn't cheap. This pic is an old road warrior, most of the guys I knew kept theirs looking pristine.

 

Bob

[HammondDave]

Yup! My first bass player had one and he had no problem competing with two twin reverbs (2 guitar players) and an Ampeg V4 (me).

That must be because of his zen-like nature. IIRC B15n? About 30W.

 

As the SS3 has proven, size can be deceiving....

 

As a 15 year old rocker in the early 70's we covered every Allman Bros song from their first three albums. I never had a problem hearing the bass.

[I-missRichardTee]

The legendary B15 Ampeg was in every studio in NYC, during the heyday.. explosion of recording activity.

I loved the sound BUT it was not loud enough for a louder gig. That turned me towards the SVT 300 watt 85-90 lb HEAD! But that head did not have the magic of the B15. Nor did the B18. I recently ( 7 years ago that's my idea of recent !) played a B15, and I will be darned if t did not have a most beautiful harmonic thing happening that no other amp, period!, has or had. The harmonics on the bass, jumped out but in such a musical way.. I suppose tubes. No amp had that wonderful effect on harmonics.. oddly, harmonics on a bass were not what bass playing and the B15 were all about. But the harmonics are a sidelight.

BUT a B15 ain't no sub. And no one here is claiming that.

[I-missRichardTee]

Yup! My first bass player had one and he had no problem competing with two twin reverbs (2 guitar players) and an Ampeg V4 (me).

That must be because of his zen-like nature. IIRC B15n? About 30W.

 

Yes in that 30-40 watt ballpark

[I-missRichardTee]

The QUALITY of the sub issue, seems to disappear.

Tee, quality ALWAYS matters

.What that means for this discussion is we're concerned with the musical bass sound, not the special effect or hip hop bass sound.

You bet your ass that Infinity sub system with a pair of 15's would sound absolutely killer sitting beneath the SS even if you wern't pushing it, you were just playing at your normal volume. It would sound clear, transparent and just great without blowing everybody's head off. Our problem is to find something that can get us as close to that as we can handle both physically and financially.

Bob

Yes, thanks for lingo update. The 90 50, used to be called The Law of Diminishing Returns.

Bob Two 15's in the monster Infinity sub? Yikes. Isn't that over kill for a single SS3?

So I will forget the Beiringer sub... but what sub??

[J. Dan]

Haven't tried this myself, but Mackie DLM12S looks pretty impressive - built in variable crossover with HP outputs, response down to 35Hz and up to 128dB max output. Certainly not cheap. But compact, 47lbs, seems like a good match.

[MathOfInsects]

I guess I differ here. In most of the situations where I use my SS3, it's purely a stage monitor. It's not FOH. The sound it produces is primarily for me and my stagemates, though they are also welcome to make their own mix out of the monitors if they want.

 

In those cases, that <100Hz bottom octave and a half of the keyboard is the loneliest real estate in California. If I touch it, it's either because I've planted my elbow there as the foundational rumble of a smear, or because I accidentally put my drink down on it and now I want my drink.

 

I use a sub not because I want to blat out a bunch of LH honks, but because I want to hear the full expression of the sounds I play up higher. I set the sub at the highest cross-over (100hz in this case) and lowest functional volume possible, and use it just to bring the rest of the beef to the stage version of my sounds.

 

It's not loud enough to produce mud, nor does it ever need to be. The omnidirectional aspect of the signal means that it only ever needs to get loud enough that if it were any less loud, I'd miss it.

 

When I use it for front of house--which is the case for one recurring monthly gig--I maintain the proportion between SS3 and sub, I just turn it all up louder. If the sub is loud enough that I notice how good the sound of the sub is, that's my signal that it's too loud.

 

So for my purposes, I can't imagine a context where I'd need anything more than nearly any sub. Even when I've had to provide LH bass, the Moog > mixer > SS3+sub has left plenty of room to clarify and refine at the mixer for the stage mix, with the rest left to FOH to work out.

 

So, while I would never claim that one sub is just like another, I am fairly comfortable claiming that if you are using the SS3 solely or mostly as a stage monitor, just about anything that pumps <100hz will do enough of what you're hoping for a sub to do, that it's difficult to justify spending more for one.

[I-missRichardTee]

Well fella's, the gauntlet is set. To use a $300 sub, or a $1000 sub?

[endlessummerkeys]

you cant beat the sounds of tube amps!!! I love them....... Wonder what a tube version of the SS would be like????

[B. J. Love]

I may have been the first to try the B1200. I don't recall which sub Math is using but I'm still very happy with it because of everything he just wrote. For my purposes, the $300 sub works just fine; if anything, it's overkill.

[jimkost2002]

Flip tops rule!!!'

[JeffLearman]

Has anyone tried a home-built solution? I'm thinking it wouldn't be hard to create the R+L and R-L using hardware (with a phase-invertable mixer or cross-wired cable) or software, but am thinking I'd need two side-firing speakers wired out-of-phase pointing left and right, since a standard PA wouldn't have much out-of-phase sound coming out the back.

 

i.e. a stack of 3 speakers:

Centre speaker: R+L

Left speaker: R-L

Right speaker: L-R

 

The L&R speakers would not need to be full-range, like the SS.

The first question is, are you good at making speaker cabinets? It's nontrivial. If you can make a great speaker cabinet, then chances are good that with experimentation, you can make a great mid-side speaker too. Even if you do make a great speaker, don't expect it to work out as well as what someone spent years and countless hours perfecting. But it may well be way good enough! You'll definitely get the stereo effect.

 

Mixer input 1 - keyboard channel left

Mixer input 2 - keyboard channel right

Mixer input 3 - keyboard channel left

Mixer input 4 - keyboard channel right

 

Now, pan inputs 1 and 2 to the "left" mixer output.

Pan inputs 3 & 4 to the "right" mixer output.

 

Press the "polarity" switch on input 4.

This is the most straightforward way, but you can also do it with three mixer channels:

 

1 - keys right, panned left

2 - keys left, panned center

3 - keys right, inverted and panned right

 

Mixer left output is center channel, mixer right output is side channel.

 

Depending on the pan law used by your mixer, you may need to adjust faders to balance it properly. The benefit of McGee's approach is you set all faders the same. In either case, you can use the mixer's right (side) bus fader to control width.

 

Hey guys

I'm intrigued, but I think you would have to have at least the 2nd, sideways, "perpendicular" speaker be an open back cabinet - to produce the Figure 8 pattern. Not sure how you would do that with a powered PA speaker, those are always enclosed.

Right. As mentioned above, you could use two back-to-back with one inverted. If you use just one, it'll still work, though. Just not as well, and folks to the back side of the side driver get cheated out of the high frequencies in the stereo image, unless you're bouncing the side speaker off a nearby wall.

 

The SS3 would be way more convenient and sound better, as is usually the case compared to a "poor man's" solution.

[endlessummerkeys]

off topic here but I cant figure out how to make a new post so I will just ask you guys. Does anyone know what the synthesizer was that was used on the short solo on Oh What a Night by the 4 seasons? Thanks in advance and sorry for the annoyance!!

[MalH]

The first question is, are you good at making speaker cabinets? It's nontrivial. If you can make a great speaker cabinet, then chances are good that with experimentation, you can make a great mid-side speaker too. Even if you do make a great speaker, don't expect it to work out as well as what someone spent years and countless hours perfecting. But it may well be way good enough! You'll definitely get the stereo effect.

 

My initial post on the topic was not meant to mean building a SS from scratch, which I agree is difficult and wouldn't be worth the effort unless you wanted something bigger. I meant rather using powered monitors exactly as Keys has done.

 

20kg is still heavy for me with back problems, so if I can get a good approximation with 2x12kg I'd like to try. It also means I can try using active monitors that I already own.