Dana. Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 According to Dave, a "new user interface" addresses the "Where are the knobs?" question. [video:youtube] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 What's in the bottle behind him next to the Grammy? "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GovernorSilver Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Reminds me of the matrix approach to hardware UI design used on the Nord Modular G2/G2X. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zahush76 Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 I can completely understand the design requirements of minimizing the amount of knobs to keep it small, but the price is ridiculous. I found this on novamusik: Dave Smith Instruments Prophet 12 Polyphonic Synthesizer Module | NovaMusik.com 2199$ street price, after discount. When the P12 keys is 3000$. Now, i've seen this price ratio between a synth in full keyboard version and its desktop\rack version. But that's the case when the rack version has the same amount of knobs as the keyboard. Like, say, this: http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll150/zahush76/VirusTI2Desk-xlarge_zpsf155834b.jpg Which is 2240$ And this: http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll150/zahush76/VirusTI2Key-xlarge_zps37be229f.jpg Which is 2999$. This MAKES SENSE. The P12 rack costing 2200$ when the keyboard is 3000$ - doesn't make sense at all. Again - don't confuse what i say about price with what i say about design. Perhaps they couldn't have done it any other way in terms of cramming more knobs in there. Totally fair. Acceptable. But then - don't charge so much for it. The P08 keys is 2000$ and its rack version is 1500$ and has all the knobs. That makes sense. The P12 rack's price doesn't. Sorry. Vermona Perfourmer mkii, Nord Stage 3 76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Which brings to question, would you rather have a mostly analog without knobs or a good VA with knobs? This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zahush76 Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 I fail to see the point of your question, since we DO have an all analog example of a reasonable price ratio (which i've given, and perhaps you missed it): The P08 vs the P08 desktop. The desktop's price is 75% of the keyboard price, and has all the knobs. The P12 rack is almost 75% (price-wise) of the keyboard price and has way less knobs. So there. The P08 vs P08 rack. Analog. So your point was... ?! Vermona Perfourmer mkii, Nord Stage 3 76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 I fail to see the point of your question, since we DO have an all analog example of a reasonable price ratio (which i've given, and perhaps you missed it): The P08 vs the P08 desktop. The desktop's price is 75% of the keyboard price, and has all the knobs. The P12 rack is almost 75% (price-wise) of the keyboard price and has way less knobs. So there. The P08 vs P08 rack. Analog. So your point was... ?! Oh, I would not dare post in a thread without reading and fully understanding any comments you made. The point I was making is, would something rather have a Prophet 12 module or a Virus TI2 Tabletop? May I have permission to post that question? This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zahush76 Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 I fail to see the point of your question, since we DO have an all analog example of a reasonable price ratio (which i've given, and perhaps you missed it): The P08 vs the P08 desktop. The desktop's price is 75% of the keyboard price, and has all the knobs. The P12 rack is almost 75% (price-wise) of the keyboard price and has way less knobs. So there. The P08 vs P08 rack. Analog. So your point was... ?! Oh, I would not dare post in a thread without reading and fully understanding any comments you made. The point I was making is, would something rather have a Prophet 12 module or a Virus TI2 Tabletop? May I have permission to post that question? Yes, you have permission and by here pardoned. Anyway, sorry. I misunderstood you question and thought it was in response to my post about the price, in which i brought the TI2 as an example. You're simply asking: P12 rack vs Virus TI2, as both are 2200$ but one with knobs and the other without. Vermona Perfourmer mkii, Nord Stage 3 76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 I wondered why a normally laid back member was suddenly so upset with my point of view. Your picture of the Virus brought it home for me because a few years ago I made the choice between the Virus and DSI offerings. The sound quality between the two were not that different and I went with the increased polyphony and controls of the Virus TI. Now with the P12 having less knobs the gap has widened. An analog without knobs is like dance music without a beat. This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 P12 is more knobby than the P8. I would hate to be the designer that had to put that panel in a rack. If you kept all the knobs, the silly thing would be 10 spaces high. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 That is why I like tabletops. I was using a double keyboard stand with a Fantom X7 on the bottom and three tabletops side by side and the second tier. Lots of variety, lots of knobs. This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GovernorSilver Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 The Nord G2's button-knob matrix scheme allows me to access a lot of different parameters very quickly - provided the patch designer took the time to assign the knobs to parameters in the software editor. I could see myself flying pretty quickly through the P12 module's UI. For those of you worried about the low knob count, it's not as much menu-diving as you might think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analogaddict Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 I dig it..! The matrix seems fast, and with a good midi controller I can see myself leaving a P12 module in its case for gigs... I'd love to see an MKS style module with optional/external programmer though, as thin as the P12M is I wouldn't be surprised if it could fit in 1 rack unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zahush76 Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 The point isn't the interface having few knobs. I totally understand the design. I completely understand why it isn't possible to cram all the knobs on that limited space (well, not completely. They DID manage to cram all the knobs on the P08 desktop). I'm just saying - it's totally ok to have that amount of knobs if the matrix is smart enough. I just happen to think 2200$ is wayyyy overpriced - for this amount of knobs. Take the PEK and PER. The PEK is 2500$, and the knobless PER (which is just the guts of the PEK) was about HALF the price, exactly as it should. Vermona Perfourmer mkii, Nord Stage 3 76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Verelst Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 I Want One! If I could afford it I wouldn't care if it would have a DX7 interface: 160 parameters didn't bother me that much, but under one major condition: that is responds rapid, the feel of the knobs is accurate and well response, but, wait for it, most of all that it doesn't have that horrible software feel which every move you make tries to "teach" you what type of b*tch you're trying to operate here... The "San Francisco made" electronics may also work under notebook control, hopefully also under/with other software than Soundtower, and are hopefully a significant part of the price, I mean there are Micro Wave ovens with a decent complicated interface for a few hundred euro, that isn't necessarily so expensive. Quality engineered and produced electronics are worthy of investment. I would like a Vocoder Mode, and some digital and analog inputs, but that's me. An Open Source OS and digital signal path would be cool, too. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrythek Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 What's in the bottle behind him next to the Grammy? Knowing Dave it is a fine tequila. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GovernorSilver Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 What's in the bottle behind him next to the Grammy? Knowing Dave it is a fine tequila. Jerry I'm guessing "fine" rules out Cuervo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Mullins Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 The implication is that more knobs justifies a higher price. The initial price is driven both by what they think they can get and what it costs. I'm guessing that for the number of units they are going to sell, the R&D cost for implementing a whole new user interface is more than it would have taken to simply replicate the keyboard version's knobs. Yes, knobs cost money but so does all that software development. Yamaha CK88, Arturia Keylab 61 MkII, Moog Sub 37, Yamaha U1 Upright, Casio CT-S500, Mac Logic/Mainstage, iPad Camelot, Spacestation V.3, QSC K10.2, JBL EON One Compact www.stickmanor.com There's a thin white line between fear and fury - Stickman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Verelst Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Making that software shouldn't be overly difficult for a serious programmer as a day job, but I was talking about the sound path (analog and digital) and the things deliberately designed in there. May simple sells better with the big group of mounting pythons that aspire to have a good synthesizer, but that doesn't mean A grade design properties don't exist, even if most of the new players go astray in meaningless sound software. The lessons in the original prophet are often still not understood, even though you don't need to be much of a big synthesizer man to hear the difference. Many voices with analog parts must be designed on a printed circuit board, and steered right and accurate by the various parts of the software, which isn't easy to design. Especially with certain sound properties that do exist, and are waiting to be discovered and learned by interested people. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeronyne Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 You guys keep implying that the price is dictated by the hardware, labor, and R & D. Those things dictate the *cost*. Price is purely dictated by market forces (and if it's not, then the price is not efficient in economic terms). If the P12m's price is not acceptable to the market, it will either correct itself or Mr. Smith will discontinue the module. "For instance" is not proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Mullins Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 You guys keep implying that the price is dictated by the hardware, labor, and R & D. Those things dictate the *cost*. Price is purely dictated by market forces (and if it's not, then the price is not efficient in economic terms). If the P12m's price is not acceptable to the market, it will either correct itself or Mr. Smith will discontinue the module. That is not precisely why I said initial price. Companies don't generally set their initial price so that they can't cover their costs... but in the end market forces take over. Yamaha CK88, Arturia Keylab 61 MkII, Moog Sub 37, Yamaha U1 Upright, Casio CT-S500, Mac Logic/Mainstage, iPad Camelot, Spacestation V.3, QSC K10.2, JBL EON One Compact www.stickmanor.com There's a thin white line between fear and fury - Stickman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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