Will these new lightweight keyboards last?

[Craig MacDonald]

All that said, my VR-09 worked perfectly out of the box. Roland has just provided a timely update that fixed most of the user issues, and based on feedback from my VR-09 Hints and Tips thread, there's only been one issue with all of the VR-09's that are in use by forum members and that is nothing more than a drawbar button falling off. Compare this to the initial problems with the first series of the more expensive SK1 keyboard.. my perspective is that despite having a higher build quality, it seems to have had numerous early life problems (the one I bought was defective and had to be returned). Heavier gauge switches, knobs and cases, do not necessarily ensure better reliability, and neither do light weight knobs and switches necessarily mean poorer reliability.

 

 

I decided on getting an SK1... are these problems widespread?

 

I wouldn't worry now, these were mostly early life things.. I think that the sk1 is probably pretty reliable now. I was just trying to make the point that lighter doesn't necessarily mean less reliable.. Newer, lighter composite materials are available these days and they are both lighter and better.

[Michael Wright]

Personally, I think the modern corporate mentality of designing and manufacturing 'disposable' instruments/products is merely a result of apathetical consumerism driven by forced corporate greed (the perceived need to constantly show overzealous increasing profits to shareholders at the expense of consumers)

I applaud the efforts of companies like Casio in offering low cost bang for the buck instruments/products, but I'd rather pay extra for the same feature sets that are contained in a higher build quality instrument/product. Keep pushing towards the lightness factor, and include the jam packed # of features, but build these instruments/products to LAST!

You certainly have some good points. Manufacturing cost and profit margins are always going to be a consideration for companies. They are not in business to lose money. It's a balancing act. The market is there for high quality professional gear, but it is small, and the instruments expensive. Compared with what we could buy 20 years ago, I think price/features wise we have many more alternatives. The better mousetrap is indeed the product that provides quality, desirable features and attractive price.

[David Emm]

It makes perfect sense to have a central keyboard as your most familiar controller, with respect to those who use 2 or 3 instruments in a stack. Well over half of what I have seen released in the last 12 months would rarely be used as anything but a module at my house, same as my old Casio CZ-101 was. The King Korg would make a great tabletop, but its keyboard doesn't exactly say "solid instrument." If you have a high-end synth with a creamy action or maybe a higher-end Novation, the issue fades a lot.

 

Here's a little experiment to envision: you've got a Korg Kross for bopping around and playing casual mini-gigs for fun.

 

Setup A: you trigger it from a controller and program the controller to run a 2nd synth like a Little Phatty through the Kross's ports. The odds are fairly good that if you pamper it with a solid case for travel and keep dust covers on things, it really could last 7-10 years.

 

Setup B: You use just the Kross, controlling the outboard module with it. It weighs so little that it squirts off the stand any time you hit a big chord. You play vigorously, so it disintegrates after about 200 hours. If you haul it around in a cardboard box, make that 100.

 

Has anyone besides me ever observed this phenomenon?

[Jazzmammal]

Personally, I think the modern corporate mentality of designing and manufacturing 'disposable' instruments/products is merely a result of apathetical consumerism driven by forced corporate greed (the perceived need to constantly show overzealous increasing profits to shareholders at the expense of consumers).

 

For what we're discussing here, this is absolutely incorrect. Yamaha for example lost 385 mil last year and Roland lost a ton as well. I'm not posting links, this info was already linked and talked about in another thread earlier this year. Losing money is losing money. What's greedy about that? No profit=no business.

 

Also, Yamaha has been running Korg for years. Korg hasn't been independent since the 80's.

 

Bob

[David Loving]

What's for supper?

[The Real MC]

Almost nobody is playing 10-year old keyboards anymore

 

You make it sound like it's a bad thing

 

I gigged with any one of these at one time or another

 

2010 Moog Taurus 3

2004 Hammond XK3

2004 Yamaha P-90

2003 Moog Voyager SE

1989 Kurzweil MIDIBoard (x2)

1986 Korg DSS-1

1985 Moog Taurus II

1984 Moog Memorymoog plus

1981 Oberheim OB-SX

1981 Moog Source

1979 Oberheim OB-X

1978 Moog Polymoog

1975 Moog Taurus 1

1973 ARP ProSoloist

1971 Moog Minimoog

1971 Hammond Porta-B

1967 Fender Rhodes

1967 Vox Continental

[opdigits]

For what we're discussing here, this is absolutely incorrect. Yamaha for example lost 385 mil last year and Roland lost a ton as well. I'm not posting links, this info was already linked and talked about in another thread earlier this year. Losing money is losing money. What's greedy about that? No profit=no business.

Actually, this kind of proves my point. Only when manufacturers started mass producing cheap disposable products aimed at the masses did they start their downhill slide.

 

Prior to that, they concentrated on producing quality products and weren't experiencing the losses that they do these days.

 

Disposable is OK when it comes to razors, but the current business model for musical instrument manufacturers isn't sustainable, IMO.

[GovernorSilver]

Also, Yamaha has been running Korg for years. Korg hasn't been independent since the 80's.

 

Bob

 

Granted, this is Wikipedia, but it says Korg's founder bought back most of Yamaha's shares in Korg in 1993.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korg

[AnotherScott]

Actually, this kind of proves my point. Only when manufacturers started mass producing cheap disposable products aimed at the masses did they start their downhill slide.

I don't see that at all. Sure, Yamaha is making more capable low end boards today than they used to, but they have always made low end as well as high end boards. And they still make the high end boards for the people who want them. I don't think anyone is saying that the CP1 and the Motif XF aren't as rugged as any Yamahas of the past. They have not abandoned the high end market, they have just brought more functionality to the low end.

 

Similarly, Roland has long made both low end and high end keyboards. And I would not be at all surprised to find that they are doing better with their VR-09 than they ever did with their VR-700 or VR-760.

[Adan]

Almost nobody is playing 10-year old keyboards anymore

 

You make it sound like it's a bad thing

 

I gigged with any one of these at one time or another

 

2010 Moog Taurus 3

2004 Hammond XK3

2004 Yamaha P-90

2003 Moog Voyager SE

1989 Kurzweil MIDIBoard (x2)

1986 Korg DSS-1

1985 Moog Taurus II

1984 Moog Memorymoog plus

1981 Oberheim OB-SX

1981 Moog Source

1979 Oberheim OB-X

1978 Moog Polymoog

1975 Moog Taurus 1

1973 ARP ProSoloist

1971 Moog Minimoog

1971 Hammond Porta-B

1967 Fender Rhodes

1967 Vox Continental

 

Of all these, only the P-90 is really relevant to this thread. I can see why, if someone really like the action on a DP, they might keep it around a long time. And the P-90 was built to last. But if we're talking about something like the VR-09, then I think Craig's comment is right on, they are practically disposable. Play it for maybe 6 or 7 years, then buy a new cheap keyboard that blows it away from a bang-for-buck standpoint.

 

. . . or keep on playing your Arp ProSoloist. The world is your erster!

[HAMEGZ]

. But if we're talking about something like the VR-09, then I think Craig's comment is right on, they are practically disposable. Play it for maybe 6 or 7 years, then buy a new cheap keyboard that blows it away from a bang-for-buck standpoint.

 

 

Adan, always the optimist

[Craig MacDonald]

Actually, this kind of proves my point. Only when manufacturers started mass producing cheap disposable products aimed at the masses did they start their downhill slide.

I don't see that at all. Sure, Yamaha is making more capable low end boards today than they used to, but they have always made low end as well as high end boards. And they still make the high end boards for the people who want them. I don't think anyone is saying that the CP1 and the Motif XF aren't as rugged as any Yamahas of the past. They have not abandoned the high end market, they have just brought more functionality to the low end.

 

Similarly, Roland has long made both low end and high end keyboards. And I would not be at all surprised to find that they are doing better with their VR-09 than they ever did with their VR-700 or VR-760.

 

+1

 

Given the economy, my expectation is that reducing the cost of their products, catering to the consumer market, and turning over more and more of these low cost entry level keyboards (with new models every year)is the reason that the haven't gone belly up.

 

I worked at one of Canada's largest music retailers recently as a keyboard consultant (with Sven by the way) and my experience there illustrates this point perfectly. We sold hundreds of the low end keyboard products every month (low end casios for $100 up to higher end Yamaha P-90's digital pianos etc.), and despite the crappy economy our keyboard department always exceeded it's targets in this low end stuff. On the other hand, upstairs where they sold clavinovas and real high end acoustic pianos and all that shiny stuff with polished wood cabinets.. they couldn't make a profit (and eventually scaled this back dramatically).

 

I would suggest that the cheaper keyboards are what has kept these companies in business in this bad economy, despite the lower profit margins, they still make a decent profit on all of these low end products because they sell then in high volumes. A different business model. The suggestion that musical instrument manufacturers business started to go downhill when they started making cheaper instruments is dead wrong (my opinion of course).

[Outkaster]

I have an M-1, Triton Extreme, and a Korg Kronos. There is no way in hell the Extreme and Kronos is built as well as the M-1. Not even close. Thats a bunch of BS people dont gig with ten year old gear, I see it all the time even with pro bands.

[opdigits]

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree on the economics of it all, Craig.

 

I guess the difference between our points of logic is that you consider your VR-09 to be disposable. Many musicians I know would consider that sum in-disposable.

 

I prefer quality that will last more than a period of time calculated by financial metrics. To me, it is THAT type of (non disposable) quality that has gone beyond the pale.

[HammondDave]

Um, ALL my keyboards are at least 10-year old. I guess I am in the minority.

 

Ages of my keyboards:

 

58 years old - B3

55 years old - B3

47 years old - Vox Connie

46 years old - Gibson G101

44 years old - Melltron 300

41 years old - Melloron 400

40 years old - Wurly

4 years old - Motif XS

[HammondDave]

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree on the economics of it all, Craig.

 

I guess the difference between our points of logic is that you consider your VR-09 to be disposable. Many musicians I know would consider that sum in-disposable.

 

I prefer quality that will last more than a period of time calculated by financial metrics. To me, it is THAT type of (non disposable) quality that has gone beyond the pale.

 

Plus, lets be honest... The VR-09 is a compromised instrument and is certainly not state of the art. The Hammond sound is just OK (the damn percussion goes through the CV, for gods sake), the Leslie and overdrive are not vent worthy, the piano sounds do not sound as good as a mid level DP, the samples have short loops, and the keyboard feels cheap (it is not even a waterfall keyboard that Hammond clone players were crying about for years).

 

The musicians who buy instruments like this know these compromises, and are willing to live with them. More power to them.

 

When I finally see a $999 keyboard that matches the quality of what we expect from a pro instrument, then I will worry about the Yamahas of the world. Until then, there will be a place and market for +$2000 keyboards.

[Craig MacDonald]

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree on the economics of it all, Craig.

 

I guess the difference between our points of logic is that you consider your VR-09 to be disposable. Many musicians I know would consider that sum in-disposable.

 

I prefer quality that will last more than a period of time calculated by financial metrics. To me, it is THAT type of (non disposable) quality that has gone beyond the pale.

 

Plus, lets be honest... The VR-09 is a compromised instrument and is certainly not state of the art. The Hammond sound is just OK (the damn percussion goes through the CV, for gods sake), the Leslie and overdrive are not vent worthy, the piano sounds do not sound as good as a mid level DP, the samples have short loops, and the keyboard feels cheap (it is not even a waterfall keyboard that Hammond clone players were crying about for years).

 

The musicians who buy instruments like this know these compromises, and are willing to loive with them. More power to them.

 

When I finally see a $999 keyboard that matches the quality of what we expect from a pro instrument, then I will worry about the Yamahas of the world. Until then, there will be a place and market for +$2000 keyboards.

 

Who ever said there wasn't a place for +$2000 high quality keyboards?? Certainly NOT me.. As the owner of a mojo and a Kronos! I just think that some of these low end keyboards are superb value! They're obviously a compromise compared to the higher end instruments. But let the player decide which compromises are right for him or her! I love the fact that I have low cost lightweight alternatives, to my heavier more expensive stuff.

[HammondDave]

I agree with you, Craig... Never said you didn't say that....

 

In fact, you have made some very good arguments regarding disposable keyboards. A similar movement is happening in the professional lighting controller world. Instead of paying $30,000 for a high end lighting console, we are purchasing the same software that will run on a personal computer along with a smaller controller for less than $10,000. We can always update the software, but why pay $30,000 for a controller that will be obsolete in 7 to 10 years.

 

The difference here has to do with the ultimate quality of the sound. The only difference with the lighting controller is the actual difference in the interface. The functionality of the software is the same. With musical instruments there is a difference in quality of sound between inexpensive and higher and instruments. Ultimately value is determined by the user.

 

i too am happy that companies like Roland and Casio are producing some very exciting products that are highly valued and are affordable by most people. Choice is always good.

[havlicek]

Besides mostly having external "wall wart" type power supplies, it seems these newer lightweight keyboards have some pretty cheesey actions. Some of the Yamaha "lightweight" keyboards I've tried have been amazingly powerful and affordable...but those wall-warts and cheap keybeds are significant negatives.

 

-john

[B3bluesman59]

I have been gigging (75 a year or more) with a Casio PX3 (23 lbs.) for close to three years and no problems at all.

 

[jcazzy]

The Casio PX-5S is lightweight with great action and has a 'wall-wart' power supply. I really don't see the problem with an external power supply and as I have said before, try buying a laptop with an internal power supply. Ain't gonna happen on some of these newer keyboards!

[brenner13]

I did about five years of bar band gigs 2-3 times per month with a Roland X6...fairly light weight without incident. I recently traded it out for an X7 while waiting for my VR09 to arrive. 3 months hard gigging with the duo, now...love the light weight. No build quality concerns to date.