Roland V-Combo VR-09

[Craig MacDonald]

ToB3 I think that's a good plan.. assuming you like it of course. The idea that the VR09 has two different functions depending on the rig you're gigging with, illustrates my point that at this pricepoint, the VR-09 is a very flexible instrument that can serve many purposes.

 

Remember, when you get a chance to try the VR-09, make sure you're hearing it through a good keyboard amp (or good headphones or whatever).. and make sure you explore the tone controls.. This tone control is not an EQ it's something different it emphasizes certain frequencies while de-emphasizing others.. it can completely change the tone of an instrument. If is very useful!

[To B3]

I'm certain of that. One doubt that remained, is: if I shape a clav sound the way I want using tone knob for example, save it and later use that modified sound as the lower part of a B3/Clav split (B3 being the upper, clav being the lower), would the clav sound retain the tone modifications on that split or would they get lost like the MFX/drive and other settings on the lower sounds?

 

Nother thing: do the clav and EP sounds contain key off/release noises?

[Outkaster]

Maybe its just me, but it seems this thread has polar opposites afa loyalty, and dare I say pseudo fanboi fervor regarding this board.

 

There is also another thread where some "dude" defends the Kronos and any other board is mere feces.

 

I contrast that with the PX5 thread, which seems balanced and mellow..

 

Having said that, I get PO when some one disses my beloved Stage 2

 

I would certainly entertain this product for its Strengths and accept its weaknesses. I could see pulling off a gig with just this board.

 

 

That was the thread when people were saying an Electro was as deep as a Kronos.I think it was in the winter.

[Charleston]

I hear that McDonalds is selling crappy hamburgers for 99 cents. Don't you even dare to compare them to sirloin!

 

Another analogy: I may not have the means for a Ferrari or even a Porsche so my MG gets me where I need to go in an enjoyable, fun loving way. And it's easier to get around in than my old Oldsmobile Matador, and more fun than a Geo or a Yugo.

 

You owned an MG? I am surprised it ran at all... Sorry to hear about that... (Just call me an "Elite"....)

 

HIP Elite!

[Ekewaka]

BTW I didn't find any band names called Hip Elite with a quick Google search -- hint hint in case someone wants a cool name.

 

Anyway, I'm a proud member #2 in the Hip Elite group :-).

[Josh Paxton]

if I shape a clav sound the way I want using tone knob for example, save it and later use that modified sound as the lower part of a B3/Clav split (B3 being the upper, clav being the lower), would the clav sound retain the tone modifications on that split or would they get lost like the MFX/drive and other settings on the lower sounds?

 

The latter, unfortunately.

 

The Clavs have release samples, the EPs do not. To my ear, the EPs and Clavs on the SK1 are a significant step up from the VR09. The VR's are adequate, where some of the SK's are actually fun. YMMV, of course.

[Craig MacDonald]

I'm certain of that. One doubt that remained, is: if I shape a clav sound the way I want using tone knob for example, save it and later use that modified sound as the lower part of a B3/Clav split (B3 being the upper, clav being the lower), would the clav sound retain the tone modifications on that split or would they get lost like the MFX/drive and other settings on the lower sounds?

 

Nother thing: do the clav and EP sounds contain key off/release noises?

As it stands right now, the VR-09 doesn't seem to retain effects on the sound that is being used in the lower part of a split. I just tried it with wah wah clav on the lower manual and organ on the upper part. As soon as you create the split the auto wah effects dissappear on the clav. That seems to be a limitation of the instrument at this time. I don't think it will save the tone control or those parameters either... they're considered effects.

 

The clav has release noises.. I don't hear any on the EP's.

[Craig MacDonald]

if I shape a clav sound the way I want using tone knob for example, save it and later use that modified sound as the lower part of a B3/Clav split (B3 being the upper, clav being the lower), would the clav sound retain the tone modifications on that split or would they get lost like the MFX/drive and other settings on the lower sounds?

 

The latter, unfortunately.

 

The Clavs have release samples, the EPs do not. To my ear, the EPs and Clavs on the SK1 are a big step up from the VR09. The VR's are adequate, where the SK's are actually fun. YMMV, of course.

 

It's been almost a year and a half since I returned my SK1, but one of the reasons I returned it was the poor quality of the Extra voices. I do recall the wah wah clav being really cool, otherwise, the EP's didn't strike me as particularly good and the AP was awful.. HOWEVER, I think there have been a number of updates since that time, and likely some of the EV's have been improved, so I defer to FKS's judgement on this.. if he says the SK1 EP's and Clavs are better and he has more recent experience than they may well be. Beyond that however, the brass/strings and other sounds, especially synth tones are better on the VR-09 and it has a much more comprehensive set of sounds (SK1 has no warm strings for example) and the built in VA synth, and supernatural tones makes a big difference.

 

 

[To B3]

Hmmm... nother quirky thing, unfortanetly... hope that the on board clav presets that are available for that split example can offer enough variation for being useful for my uses (for example, darker, thinner, fuller, etc)... The release noises on the clav are good news, tho...

 

Another thing, on the preset list, there are sounds listed as tremolo EP, for example... is that tremolo a MFX or it's "glued" to the sample? If it's "integral" on the sample, part of the sound and not an effect appplied, does it get lost too when that sound is used as a lower part of a split? (Please Roland, give us at least that!)

 

And last, but not least, Craig, can you post some of your mellotron workarounds made on the VR-09, as well as the path used to get to them?

[voxpops]

At the risk of being shot down in flames by both the opposing camps here, I'll try to offer a perspective that recognizes the validity of both arguments, but that also presents one logical (I hope) rationale for purchase.

 

Firstly, I accept that the keybed is on the poor side of average for an unweighted board these days; that the non-organ sounds range from quite nice to quite disappointing, with some obvious velocity jumps, overt looping, and egregious stretching; and that the software compromises are, in some cases, at the level of faults rather than just oversights or a you-didn't-pay-enough-to-get-a-fully-functional-device

attitude on the part of Roland. However, just taking the organ/rotary on its own, I would say that it's twice as good as that in the XW-P1, and well over half as good as that in the Electro, SK, or Numa - probably nearer 75%. And, has been said many times, it has a well-designed, easy-to-use interface that lends itself to live performance.

 

Organ purists are not going to want this board. Understood. Professionals needing a single keyboard to cover piano, organ and synth would not choose the VR over a Stage 2 or a Kronos. Understood again. But that leaves a vast army of people ranging from teenage twiddlers to semi-pros who can make good use of its versatility.

 

I played the VR alongside the Electro 4, and there was no contest - the Nord was a clear winner, and by a wide margin. However, these days I'm gravitating more towards AP and EP sounds for over 90% of what I do, and I wouldn't dream of playing an unweighted board for those, so I have a Nord Piano, Korg SV-1 or Roland RD-64 to choose from, depending on the gig. For the remaining 10% of sounds it makes sense for me to have a really easy-to-carry and setup top-tier (as I find a single board limiting for rapid changes). However, as I don't produce my main income from playing these days, why should I invest an additional $3k-plus on the alternative (but admittedly better) boards? If I want a purer B3 sound, I'll take my Numa along, but it's quite a bit bulkier, and for the occasional synth sounds I need, I have to MIDI up a module, or perch a Micron (or similar) precariously on its flat but narrow top shelf - more gear, more hassle. The VR is a tangle of compromises, but it does enough, well enough, for me, since I am not reliant on its piano engine.

 

As for sending a message to Roland by not purchasing, I really think that's a specious argument. If the Hammond XK/SK had used the VK-7's diving-board action, would the VR detractors have boycotted Hammond? I doubt it. Do people boycott Nord because they use a so-so Fatar action? Not really. You take all the factors into account, weigh them up, and make a decision depending on which side the scales balance. Roland will have known that this board would not appeal to pros as their main board, and they don't expect those people to purchase it. They have a VR-700, with what some have described as a commendably good action, to attract their share of single-board users.

 

Edit: just to add that I'm of the opinion, in this day of excellent software pianos and other instruments, that there is no real excuse for putting tiny, over-looped/stretched piano samples in hardware instruments. Korg, to their credit, has recognized this, and fully embraced the potential that software opens up - which is great, as long as you can live with the start-up time involved.

[Adan]

Roland will sell a kabillion of these to a worldwide market. Most buyers will be amateurs or dabbling weekend warriors. Roland couldn't care less about being boycotted by the Hip Elite.

 

(I'm picturing a few graybeards and hipsters carrying picket signs in front of Roland USA HQ. The signs say things like "You call that a wurly!" and "I've seen better action on a pinball machine"). At 11:21 am on the first day of the boycott, our heroes decide to take a beer break. They do not return. The next day, city workers have to clean up the discarded picket signs.)

 

Both FKS and Voxpops have given us eloquent and well-reasoned examples of how the board might reasonable fit into the keyboard schema of a pro.

 

[Ekewaka]

Never underestimate the power of hip elite, if it considers VR-09 not hip, the amateurs or weekend warriors will shun the product :-).

 

Besides, the new keyboard generation is busy behind Ableton Live and an M-Audio keyboard controller, anyway....

[mate stubb]

As for sending a message to Roland by not purchasing, I really think that's a specious argument. If the Hammond XK/SK had used the VK-7's diving-board action, would the VR detractors have boycotted Hammond? I doubt it.

 

Actually, MANY of us boycotted Hammond for years over the awful and egregious faults or omissions of their previous generations of clones. It wasn't until the XK-3 series that they became a player to a lot of serious organists.

 

One could argue that we would have never gotten that improvement if we accepted the earlier attempts.

[Ekewaka]

As for sending a message to Roland by not purchasing, I really think that's a specious argument. If the Hammond XK/SK had used the VK-7's diving-board action, would the VR detractors have boycotted Hammond? I doubt it.

 

Actually, MANY of us boycotted Hammond for years over the awful and egregious faults or omissions of their previous generations of clones. It wasn't until the XK-3 series that they became a player to a lot of serious organists.

 

One could argue that we would have never gotten that improvement if we accepted the earlier attempts.

 

Yes, I find it strange that we consumers should just accept whatever the companies provide as a gift from the gods and if any issues just be stoic or let's say have a Lutheran approach of 'life is suffering and better go along with what by their grace they give us'.

 

We consumers have the power. Finally.

[voxpops]

As for sending a message to Roland by not purchasing, I really think that's a specious argument. If the Hammond XK/SK had used the VK-7's diving-board action, would the VR detractors have boycotted Hammond? I doubt it.

 

Actually, MANY of us boycotted Hammond for years over the awful and egregious faults or omissions of their previous generations of clones. It wasn't until the XK-3 series that they became a player to a lot of serious organists.

 

One could argue that we would have never gotten that improvement if we accepted the earlier attempts.

If your "boycott" had been successful, they would not have been in business long enough to produce the XK-3.

[voxpops]

As for sending a message to Roland by not purchasing, I really think that's a specious argument. If the Hammond XK/SK had used the VK-7's diving-board action, would the VR detractors have boycotted Hammond? I doubt it.

 

Actually, MANY of us boycotted Hammond for years over the awful and egregious faults or omissions of their previous generations of clones. It wasn't until the XK-3 series that they became a player to a lot of serious organists.

 

One could argue that we would have never gotten that improvement if we accepted the earlier attempts.

 

Yes, I find it strange that we consumers should just accept whatever the companies provide as a gift from the gods and if any issues just be stoic or let's say have a Lutheran approach of 'life is suffering and better go along with what by their grace they give us'.

 

We consumers have the power. Finally.

 

Thank goodness that the people never accepted all that candlelight nonsense. That five-thousand-year boycott of those greedy chandlers really produced results. We would never have gotten electricity without it.

[mate stubb]

If your "boycott" had been successful, they would not have been in business long enough to produce the XK-3.

 

Not true. They had other products.

[voxpops]

If your "boycott" had been successful, they would not have been in business long enough to produce the XK-3.

 

Not true. They had other products.

My point is that if no one had been buying Hammond products, it is doubtful whether Suzuki would have maintained the franchise, and invested in R&D, and thus new products.

 

Obviously, all manufacturers watch the level of sales to see whether they're satisfying the market or not, and Roland will gear up for its next generation of products based on those figures. If a product suits, you buy it - if it doesn't, you don't, but all this talk of a boycott is silly. It implies a homogeneous group with a common cause and grievance - and a willingness to pursue an organized and concerted action against the company to get them to change their ways. That is just not the case here.

 

What we are talking about is the rule of the market. That alone will dictate Roland's future direction.

[Ekewaka]

Roland should make products people like. That's the only rule that works in a consumer society. If enough keyboard players like VR-09, good. If not, that's how it is. No need to exactly support a company even if you are marginal about their product offerings. Won't help them at all. Even worse, they get a false perception of what the market asks for and makes an even worse key bed for the VR-09 follow-up.

[DulceLabs.com]

Besides, the new keyboard generation is busy behind Ableton Live and an M-Audio keyboard controller, anyway....

 

The kids are ditching the keyboard all together.....

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS2r13xX-nk&feature=player_embedded

[Ekewaka]

Ableton's Push was one of the main reasons to re-kindle my interest in playing jazz piano again :-). Anyone could push buttons, playing improvisational music is another story.

[voxpops]

No need to exactly support a company even if you are marginal about their product offerings.

To a greater or lesser extent, I am marginal about ALL boards! Your argument means I should give up playing altogether.

 

I have been through just about every brand and model that an aging player with a bad back can carry, and every single board was compromised in one way or another. I have come to accept there will be compromises at all price-points and among all manufacturers.

[Dana.]

I saw Giorgio Moroder pushing buttons Monday night. There's nothing inherently wrong with it. He also played a solo on a MiniNova.

[Ekewaka]

No need to exactly support a company even if you are marginal about their product offerings.

To a greater or lesser extent, I am marginal about ALL boards! Your argument means I should give up playing altogether.

 

I have been through just about every brand and model that an aging player with a bad back can carry, and every single board was compromised in one way or another. I have come to accept there will be compromises at all price-points and among all manufacturers.

 

No, what I mean that should demand even better products from Roland and others than just to accept all warts they release. And trust me, I know about back pain. But I would not purchase a light-weight keyboard just because it's light. There are plenty of low-cost light-weight Casio products I would never use.

[Craig MacDonald]

No need to exactly support a company even if you are marginal about their product offerings.

To a greater or lesser extent, I am marginal about ALL boards! Your argument means I should give up playing altogether.

 

I have been through just about every brand and model that an aging player with a bad back can carry, and every single board was compromised in one way or another. I have come to accept there will be compromises at all price-points and among all manufacturers.

voxpops you are absolutely right!

 

The posters who think they're going to change the "course of Roland history" by boycotting the VR-09 are sadly mistaken and they suffer from delusions of self-importance. First of all they're wrong, because the VR-09 is excellent value at this price point, and its going to sell very well! Secondly, the VR-09 isn't targeted at someone who is looking for the perfect clone, nor is it targeted at someone looking for a high end keyboard.

 

The only hammond clone that doesn't make any compromises is the new Hammond B3 with its identical cabinet, and individual multiple-contact key switches etc. and I'm not quite sure what the going price is for one today but its well over 10k! Every other clone wheel has some compromises. Time will tell whether or not Roland has made the right compromises. It's really unfortunate to see Roland take so much flack for bringing out a great sounding drawbar organ at such a great price point.

[Ekewaka]

The only hammond clone that doesn't make any compromises is the new Hammond B3 with its identical cabinet, and individual multiple-contact key switches etc. and I'm not quite sure what the going price is for one today but its well over 10k! Every other clone wheel has some compromises. Time will tell whether or not Roland has made the right compromises. It's really unfortunate to see Roland take so much flack for bringing out a great sounding drawbar organ at such a great price point.

 

They should fix the key bed itself and I would be happy. Or drop the price to around $500 which is typical for keyboards with this kind of lame key bed. Sorry, I just can't support something that has in my opinion flakes, they are just doing a disservice if they force every consumer to like it.

 

PS: And if anyone thinks that this Hip Elite is a snob, I've been doing many gigs with a Yamaha KX61.

[Craig MacDonald]

Hmmm... nother quirky thing, unfortanetly... hope that the on board clav presets that are available for that split example can offer enough variation for being useful for my uses (for example, darker, thinner, fuller, etc)... The release noises on the clav are good news, tho...

 

Another thing, on the preset list, there are sounds listed as tremolo EP, for example... is that tremolo a MFX or it's "glued" to the sample? If it's "integral" on the sample, part of the sound and not an effect appplied, does it get lost too when that sound is used as a lower part of a split? (Please Roland, give us at least that!)

 

And last, but not least, Craig, can you post some of your mellotron workarounds made on the VR-09, as well as the path used to get to them?

.

 

ToB3, I don't think the tremolo is part of the sample I'm pretty sure it's a tremolo effect.

 

As far as posting samples of "mellotron" sounds.. If I thought I could post them without Hammonddave (who is a resident mellotron expert) shitting all over me and telling me how awful they sound I would post them, but I'm really not interested in being the target of any more crap. Suffice it to say that by selecting the solo violins and adding overdrive and compression, you can get a reasonable facsimile of mellotron strings.

[Dana.]

PS: And if anyone thinks that this Hip Elite is a snob, I've been doing many gigs with a Yamaha KX61.

In a way, this makes you Hip Elite.

[DulceLabs.com]

I saw Giorgio Moroder pushing buttons Monday night. There's nothing inherently wrong with it. He also played a solo on a MiniNova.

 

Nope - not at all. I have carpal tunnel / tendonitis

so I am all about using alternative controlers.

I am saving for a laser harp!

[Ekewaka]

PS: And if anyone thinks that this Hip Elite is a snob, I've been doing many gigs with a Yamaha KX61.

In a way, this makes you Hip Elite.

 

Yes, there's a big difference between a Hip Elite and a snob.