Playing jazz organ with a bass player

[boatnoise]

I play regularly in piano trio settings (piano, bass, drums) and organ trio settings (horn, organ, and drums), but have never played organ with a bass player. I'm wondering if anyone has thoughts on playing organ in a "piano trio" setting? The reason I'm interested is that I will hopefully be receiving my Hamichord M-C3 in the next week or so and want to show it off (as well as the rotary speaker I built) on my next Sunday brunch trio gig (horn, keys, bass). I'm curious to know if other people do this sort of thing and what kind of registrations you use for LH comping.

 

BTW, I'm a new member to the forum but have been thoroughly enjoying the wisdom and banter from you guys for several weeks now. It's been the only thing keeping me from crawling up a wall as I endure the wait through the Italian August vacation month and the additional weeks it is taking for our Crumar friends to finish building my organ. Glad to see such a cool bunch of folks all together in one place!

[Bobadohshe]

Alfredson does that a lot. He should be along shortly....

[Bobadohshe]

I'll chime in with my limited and humble experience in saying that I really like a 008800000 or 008805000 lower manual sound for a L.H. comp. Gospel guys use that a lot.

[kanker.]

008800000 works great, although you'll find it can be too loud at times for comping your own solos, so a little adjustment can be in order.

[marino]

Confession time: I don't like the sound of Hammond bass, either played with the pedals or with the lower manual. I much prefer hearing a good electric bassist: It brings the overall sound to another level of power and definition.

That said, I have a very limited first-hand experience on organ, so I'll only venture to suggest one setting I like for L.H. chordal comping (mostly staccato) in a jazz or light funk environment:

038503000

It mostly works with full/robust solo sounds in the upper manual.

 

 

[dazzjazz]

I really, REALLY hate hearing a bass player of any description with organ. It never feels right.

[Rusty Mike]

I think it depends on the musician. If you listen to an organist with a great sense of groove, like Dr. Lonnie Smith, the bass sits in the pocket very well. I think great players like Tony Monaco do an incredible job of driving the groove, and watching Barbera Dennerlein is absolutely fascinating.

 

I do find overall, however, that in a lot of organ jazz, the left hand/pedals are not really emphasized and seem to be holding up the bottom end rather than being the foundation of the groove. Just my interpretation and opinion.

 

If you listen to a schlep with a crappy left hand, like me, you have a sincere appreciation for a decent bassist. That's why I'm interested in reading the responses from the experts.

 

[MojoGuyPan]

A good starting place for the lower manual is 00884 or 0088 like a lot of guys are saying. This will put your left hand in a comfortable place to comp. I prefer 00884.

 

As far as a real bass with organ, contrary to what Dazz says, it sounds great. No need to fear it. Shirley Scott almost always had an upright bassist and even the great Jimmy Smith had some cat on the Fender bass on that Root Down album and that LP cooks. Also on Grant Green's Live at the Lighthouse album it has Sonny Lester on the B3 and Wilton Felder on the Fender Bass and it is bad ass.

 

So it certainly is a workable configuration. And for jazz-funk type stuff a good bass player can add a lot more pop than left hand bass on the organ.

[andi85]

I felt the same way for quite some time. I moved from piano to the organ and picked up left-hand bass right away (pedal is to follow in the next weeks, ha!). Having a bass player felt incredibly weird at first, however, when I dropped my inward resistance and simply let it happen, I got accustomed to that kind of feeling. It's still somewhat weird because I sometimes feel my left hand should be doing something else, but I've come to like the experience.

 

Soundwise, I prefer electric bass with the hammond organ, to my ears acoustic bass never really fits. But that's just me

[solpincus]

I reached the point where I would not even CONSIDER playing organ with ANY bass player. I DO listen to other organists who usually (always) play organ with a bass player ( Keith,Booker,Jon,etc) & sometimes like the sound, but i would rather hear them play the bass ( lower manual/pedals). the times i have played organ with the bass felt intolerably hideous. Then again, I'm from the Tatum,teddy wilson,Dave Mc kenna school for LEFT HAND piano : bass lines,swing bass, walking 10ths, accents , though for RIGHT HAND playing, i like bud Powell, Hampton Hawes,Oscar, & Phnieas Newborn.Needless to say, I often had conflicts with bassists ( & guitarists ) so I'm probably better off sticking to solo playing,recordings, gigs. I'm violently antisocial anyway . My way of communing with other players is now pretty much restricted to forums. safer that way........

[Steveaudio]

As much as a fan as I am of the trad. organ trio format (horn, organ, and drums), it would seem like there would be huge possibilities in being able to comp on the lower manual while soloing on the upper. With the right bass player, & even then I'd assume a "learning curve" (if you're used to playing LH bass).

 

I just listened to Herbie H. playing organ on the Red Clay album, the tune Delphia. It's a crazy good organ solo that he does, given that he never played organ before or since, as far as I know, & the interplay between his RH & LH is brilliant. Of course most of us aren't Herbie, & don't have Ron Carter playing bass......

 

 

 

 

 

[Bobadohshe]

even the great Jimmy Smith had some cat on the Fender bass on that Root Down album and that LP cooks.

 

Quite right!!

[kanker.]

even the great Jimmy Smith had some cat on the Fender bass on that Root Down album and that LP cooks.

 

Quite right!!

A good friend of mine was McDuff's bass player in the early 80's, and was Smith's bass player the last few years of Jimmy's life. If it's ok for those guys....

[Michelle ggurl]

I feel like a hack at this sort of thing (playing organ; piano is more my thing) compared to many on this board, but if you want thoughts, I can offer mine for what they are worth.

 

From time time I do play in a funk-jazz group. I play mostly organ (well, Nord), and I MIDI two keyboards together to have a lower and upper manual. We have a bass player (he's the one who hires me for the gig!). So, I do the comping LH and RH solo thing, with rhythmic interplay that involves variation on this. I feel it sounds good, listeners seem to like it, the rest of the band does, other musicians seem to also ... From my humble personal experience a bassist can coexist with organ just fine...

[yannis D]

I feel like a hack at this sort of thing (playing organ; piano is more my thing) compared to many on this board, but if you want thoughts, I can offer mine for what they are worth.

 

From time time I do play in a funk-jazz group. I play mostly organ (well, Nord), and I MIDI two keyboards together to have a lower and upper manual. We have a bass player (he's the one who hires me for the gig!). So, I do the comping LH and RH solo thing, with rhythmic interplay that involves variation on this. I feel it sounds good, listeners seem to like it, the rest of the band does, other musicians seem to also ... From my humble personal experience a bassist can coexist with organ just fine...

 

+1. You're absolutely right. A nice left hand comping on the organ can add a lot to the solo line, since you got the right guy on the bass...in my group, where there's a bass player and i do mostly organ, I enjoy the interplay between hands (although I only use a nord electro, so I play the split setting).

[kanker.]

I should mention, my favorite organ comping while soloing of all time the is shit Ray Charles did on Genius + Soul = Jazz. Some of it's totally ignorant in the most beautiful way ever, particularly on One Mint Julep. Honestly, probably my favorite organ record

[Theo Verelst]

I've probably played quite more piano years of my life than organ, but the years I played organ type of machines *with* bass players tell me that in jazz the organ is restrictive because of the nature of the instrument, and bass players will have to "understand" and invent ways to deal with that, just like guitar players with an organ.

 

However the most fun with organ type sounds and actual bass playing is an "unreal" organ where the tonewheels cannot be "motored along" with, like when I started using a (Korg) M1 with organ patches.

 

Also the scientific sides of the distinct transients coming from the organ percussion, and sounding through a amp, become more interesting when a bass plays along. But I like a combo sound, modern small "pole" speakers with "reflected" low frequency tone build-up are too boring for me to have fun with. For fusion bass players, or keyboard/synth bass parts with an organ sound, the tradeoffs are in that area as well. A neutral headphone with good room simulation, or a very neutral studio monitoring system (like a bigger studio with 3 or 4 way Quested-s or something comparable) can probably answer most of the questions as to "why" an electromechanical bass sound doesn't automatially work with traditional ogran sounds.

 

And there's th "modernisation" trend where electronic/digital instruments are "programmed" by people who think it is entertaining when they include their own "feel" in the instruments, according to lines which really in short or long run interested me not at all. Honestly.

 

[Jazzmammal]

Left hand bass is an art form by itself. The key to quote a famous cat, "the bass is the boss". I learned that by myself without anybody having to tell me. If the bass isn't happening the whole sound sucks so I learned when I play organ bass it takes priority. Years ago if I didn't feel right trying to solo I didn't. You have to gradually work into it and that's exactly how and why the great players groove so well because their solos and comps are working with the bass. It's not easy to master.

 

As to working with a bass player when I'm doing organ, sure what's wrong with that? I know there's a lot of tradition there, see an organ you expect to hear organ bass and that's fine but don't be closed minded about it. There's a few really good bassists I work with and love every minute of it because it frees me to do things I wouldn't normally do and who doesn't enjoy working with another really good player? But there's some bass players where I'm better than they are and the drummer has told me so and wishes I was doing it. I have a strong left hand and can really lay it down and drummers love that. I take the time to actually practice bass lines, some tunes like Senor Blues has a specific bass part and I had to work it out.

 

The big thing is you have to play within yourself. You can't be experimenting if you're holding down the bass. Keep it solid and simple if you have to and just groove.

 

The bass is the boss.

 

Bob

[keyClicker]

I love string bass with piano.

But when it comes to organ jazz, I agree with Darren.

I don't hate stringbass+organ... but there's something about organ bass lines that moves me. Maybe the gracenotes, maybe the pedal thumps, I don't know.

[solpincus]

Indeed, many of us are fortunate to get at lest facile with an instrument that is as self-sufficient as organ ( whether it be Hammond,NORD,Roland,Mojo,etc) to me, the nord is just another form organ ,regardless of what ANYBODY thinks . The sound of organ bass IS different : to me, if THAT part is not at least partially mastered , than the rest of the stuff upstairs don't mean SHIT. Yet, on the other hand, jazz organ (whatever the make)DOES sound good with a bassist in a big Band setting, & probably SHOULD include a bassist for various reasons (doubling with bones,tenors, etc). Aside, from that.....to each his own. I love playing an axe that does not necesitate any one else. after years of big band,quartets, quintets, sextets, everything i have been exposed to has been internalized . I will NEVER listen to another bassist, guitarist or drummer argue about changes, lines, etc. I can play it the way i want it this way, with or without an audience, live or on cds. No man is an island ? maybe, but i'm way too burned out from playing with other prima donnas & jerk-offs to care. any objections out there ? Fine. Meet me in a parking lot - i'll introduce you to a new kind of physical therapy. May the better man remain standing.

[yannis D]

any objections out there ? Fine. Meet me in a parking lot - i'll introduce you to a new kind of physical therapy. May the better man remain standing.

 

I wouldn't want to be your bandmate, no matter "how the gigs pays"

[solpincus]

Ha ha ha ha ! Nothing like instant responce. i love it !

[dazzjazz]

I should mention, my favorite organ comping while soloing of all time the is shit Ray Charles did on Genius + Soul = Jazz. Some of it's totally ignorant in the most beautiful way ever, particularly on One Mint Julep. Honestly, probably my favorite organ record

 

That is one the best albums ever. Rays organ play is unique, kinda Monkish!

Some of the block chord stuff on piano is off the charts, unbelievable.

 

I have the deluxe 2CD edition, if you don't have it, get it!!!,

[solpincus]

My friend, I think that you might have just saved me from jumping off the Golden gate Bridge with THAT reply ! Maybe there IS hope ! HILARIOUS !

[Dglavko]

With a good upright bassist yes.

 

Otherwise no.

 

Dotto for the sax/guitar player, who should have at least as much happening as the organist, otherwise I can't stand it.

 

But that's just me (as I play sax too).

[Musicale]

I think it's the way the music swings when the organ player plays the left hand bass. He always knows where he's going and where he's been. That is really a lot of control, but you have to be quite proficient at bass lines to bring it to full potential.

I work pretty hard at organ/Bass, but getting enough variety take a long time. I hate when the songs start to sound the same as the last one due to a lack of education on bass lines. It's also hard to get the beautiful nuances out of the organ bass that a upright player can bring to the table, especially in a trio setting (yeah a different context, but a useful point none-the-less).

[keyman27]

+1 on the Ray Charles ABC organ big band stuff. The organ solo on "I'm Gonna Move to the Outskirts of Town" (or is it "I've Got News For You"?) just kills me. Ignorant is a good way to describe it... or maybe just gut-bucket soul. I would love to do those tunes in a blues band, but how? Is there a way to play it that sounds good without the Basie band backing you up?