HSS Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I've been thinking since last Xmas about picking an SK1 up because I want the much lighter weight, the supposedly improved Leslie sim, and utility of the extra sounds compared to the XK1 that I've had for nearly 4 years. Since an SK1 showed up in a local GC here in Vegas couple of months ago, I've been in several times to play it. Although the Leslie sim is indeed much better than on my XK1 and the basic B3 sound engine seems similar, IMHO the drawbars seem to lack easily discernible notches and felt less substantial and more like faders compared to my XK1 (or for that matter the XK2 I had previously). Also, I had more difficulty pushing them back flush to "0" than I do on my XK1. Is my "impression" about the drawbars on the SK1 valid or perhaps was I playing a used / abused floor model? Gigs: Nord 5D 73, Kurz PC4-7 & SP4-7, Hammond SK1, Yamaha CK88, MX88, & P121, Numa Compact 2x, Casio CGP700, QSC K12, Yamaha DBR10, JBL515xt(2). Alto TS310(2) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcS Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 The drawbars are different from those on the XK-1. They are faders similar to those used in mixers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Our hosts spoke pretty clearly about this in their review of the SK1: The SK1s drawbars move smoothly, lacking the usual clicky feel. Presumably this saves on cost (because that clicky mechanism involves more moving parts) and front-to-back depth (because the guts that read drawbar positions go under the drawbars instead of behind them). Fair enough, but there is one thing that makes it a bit fiddly to play the drawbars as you play the organ. Many seasoned players use the base of the hand as a stop, resting it against the fronts of the drawbars while curling the fingers over and behind them. On a real B-3 or the Hammond XK series, theres a flat terrace on which you can rest your hand in front of the drawbars. On the SK1, the drawbars sit in a sort of tray thats sunk into the chassis about 3/8" on all sides. My hand sat on the raised panel between the south edge of the tray and the north edge of the keys, and if I pressed it down into the tray while manipulating drawbars, things started to feel a bit cramped. I also had a tendency to pinch the skin at the base of my thumb if I wasnt careful when pulling drawbars back out, which necessitated modifying my technique just a little. Look, some compromises are inevitable when designing an instrument this compact, and Id still rather have this setup than pushbuttons for drawbars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSS Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 Many thanks for the quick replies and the food for thought... I'll have to think more carefully about cost / benefit of the SK1 compared to my XK1. Gigs: Nord 5D 73, Kurz PC4-7 & SP4-7, Hammond SK1, Yamaha CK88, MX88, & P121, Numa Compact 2x, Casio CGP700, QSC K12, Yamaha DBR10, JBL515xt(2). Alto TS310(2) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiWhitaker Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 My hand sat on the raised panel between the south edge of the tray and the north edge of the keys, and if I pressed it down into the tray while manipulating drawbars, things started to feel a bit cramped. I also had a tendency to pinch the skin at the base of my thumb if I wasnt careful when pulling drawbars back out, which necessitated modifying my technique just a little. Look, some compromises are inevitable when designing an instrument this compact, and Id still rather have this setup than pushbuttons for drawbars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcS Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I'll have to think more carefully about cost / benefit of the SK1 compared to my XK1. The XK-1 would make an excellent lower manual for the SK-1. It provides a second set of drawbars so each manual would have its own. It also provides a pitch bend and mod wheel which the SK-1 doesn't have but can respond to. It would be pretty easy to make a frame/platform for the SK-1 to allow it to sit properly positioned over the XK-1. And, you could have two extra voices when desired. More food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammondDave Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Hammond Suzuki really screwed up on this one. Unless you can improve on the original design, and draw faders certainly NOT an improvement, then leave well alone.... '55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Hammond Suzuki really screwed up on this one. Unless you can improve on the original design, and draw faders certainly NOT an improvement, then leave well alone.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Hammond Suzuki really screwed up on this one. Unless you can improve on the original design, and draw faders certainly NOT an improvement, then leave well alone.... OTOH, how else to get that functionality into that size space? Drawbars need a lot of free depth behind them to operate, and one of the virtues of the SK1 is the minimization of size and weight. It's not for everyone, but that doesn't mean it's a screwup. Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delaware Dave Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 OTOH, how else to get that functionality into that size space? Drawbars need a lot of free depth behind them to operate, and one of the virtues of the SK1 is the minimization of size and weight. It's not for everyone, but that doesn't mean it's a screwup. I'm on the fence with this comment. I get the size/weight piece; however I don't particularly find a keyboard in the 37-40 pound range to be weighty, especially when previous keyboards I gigged with were twice that weight. Also, for a hammond clone (a very controversial topic on these forums) I read alot about authenticity, feel of the keybed, drawbars (vs. drawfaders, drawbuttons), placement of controls, etc. all being part of the playing experience. That being said it becomes somewhat difficult to have two sets of drawbars, percussion tabs in the upper right, V/C on the upper left, etc. and be able to get down to 15-20 pounds. For some the authenticity of the layout is part of the hammond experience. That's going to put the keyboard in the 30 pound or so range. So for users who think the sound and light weight is the most important while layout and authenticity not as important then I get your point; while others who believe that sitting behind the clone and knowing exactly where everything is and have that authentic feel (and having that manufacturer already have previously produced a pretty close replica) I can understand where someone may think they actually took a step backwards. So I see both sides. 57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn Delaware Dave Exit93band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adan Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Human beings (most, anyway) are incredibly adaptable. Think of pre-historic societies that migrated from cradle of civilization in what is now the MIddle East towards the colder climes of what is now Europe. Within a few hours of use, you'll be able to accomplish what you want using the XK-1 faders. Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro Home: Vintage Vibe 64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wruess Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Took me less than one gig to get used to the 'non-clicky' drawbars. The organ engine is very good, the keyboard action is very good, the 'extra voice' sounds are actually useful, and I smile every time I have to pick up this instrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dgas Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I had an XK1 for about a year before I got my SK1. Loved it; got tired of carrying it up & down stairs though; plus bringing a piano along for the few times when I needed piano sounds. Thought I'd keep the XK1 for lower manual, or maybe leave it at one of my rehearsal spaces. Didn't. As much as I liked the XK1, it sat unused. Really like the SK1 light weight, the extra voice option, & even the small footprint for those space limited gigs. I was initially concerned about the drawbar/fader thing....no problem, never even think about it. I'm a bit on the short side & getting on in years. Lugging a longish 35lb board (XK1) vs a short 15lb board with more function (SK2) is a big deal. For me, the SK1 is a much better fit vs XK1. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I don't particularly find a keyboard in the 37-40 pound range to be weighty I could cite scores of posts over the last 5 years where people complain about weighted action digital pianos that were too heavy over 35 pounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delaware Dave Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I don't particularly find a keyboard in the 37-40 pound range to be weighty I could cite scores of posts over the last 5 years where people complain about weighted action digital pianos that were too heavy over 35 pounds. So can I. But as I said I don't find a keyboard 37-40 pounds weighty especially when I carried a Stage piano around twice that heavy for 11 years. And I believe that I acknowledged the weight issue when I said " ..So for users who think the sound and light weight is the most important while layout and authenticity not as important then I get your point.." 57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn Delaware Dave Exit93band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tompass Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinny Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I could cite scores of posts over the last 5 years where people complain about weighted action digital pianos that were too heavy over 35 pounds. Scores! I'm suprised you didn't say 'dozens'. Stuff and things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I could cite scores of posts over the last 5 years where people complain about weighted action digital pianos that were too heavy over 35 pounds. Scores! I'm suprised you didn't say 'dozens'. Started with 'hundreds', then changed it to 'dozens', but 'scores' seemed to be right in the sweet spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 How about "parsecs"? Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 How about "parsecs"? Ummm... no, because that's a measurement of distance, not quantity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 How about "parsecs"? Ummm... no, because that's a measurement of distance, not quantity... Right up there with saying 20,000 leagues under the sea, eh? I could cite scores of posts over the last 5 years where people complain about weighted action digital pianos that were too heavy over 35 pounds. Scores! I'm suprised you didn't say 'dozens'. I wasn't gonna say it... "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 How about "parsecs"? Ummm... no, because that's a measurement of distance, not quantity... It was good enough for Han Solo. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I don't have a problem with an 80 lb stage piano. I couldn't care less, within reason, what a piece weighs. That said, what is attractive about the SK1's size and weight is that I could fly it. A 40 lb keyboard wouldn't fly - can't find a 10 lb case that would safely protect it. I'm venturing it would be possible to carry the SK1 on to an airplane too. I hope to test that theory sometime soon. A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I don't have a problem with an 80 lb stage piano. I couldn't care less, within reason, what a piece weighs. Unfortunately, some of us are lugging our own gear up and down stairs, and we're not getting any younger! (And yes, I'm sure I'm well represented among Sven's Scores of posts.) Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff7b9 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Took me less than one gig to get used to the 'non-clicky' drawbars. The organ engine is very good, the keyboard action is very good, the 'extra voice' sounds are actually useful, and I smile every time I have to pick up this instrument. +1 People love to cry about stuff, but this is something where you gotta look for a reason to cry. It took me about zero seconds to get used to the drawbars. They are fine. Toys: Hammond SK1, Yamaha Motif ES6, Voce V5+, Virus ti 61, Mason & Hamlin upright, Everett upright, Hammond M3, Korg CX3 analog, Motion Sound Pro145, QSC K10, H&K Rotosphere.. etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opdigits Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 What sold me on the difference between the XK1 and the SK1 was that the "S" in the SK1 is curvy and sensual as opposed to the blocky and squareish "X" in the XK1. I like sensual curves. Nobody told me there'd be days like these... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSS Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 Many thanks for the reassurance about getting used to the SK1's drawbars and interface. I didn't mean to sound like a "Hammond Nazi", I can adapt to the drawbar faders on the SK1. I was in fact also concerned about quality of build in the SK1 because the drawbars feel a bit delicate and the board is light as a feather, but comments on this thread indicate it is indeed gig worthy and can hopefully hold up for the long haul like my XK2 and XK1 did, both of which are built like tanks. With the aid of all of the useful info on this thread, I'm still thinking whether the extra cost is worth it for the SK1 compared to what I would get for my XK1. On the rare occasions when I've gigged with just the XK1, I have midi'd a Kurx ME-1 module to it for AP and EP sounds and survived, so the SK1 doesn't give me a big bump in this regard. Also for a lot less that the price difference between the Sk1 and my Xk1, I can pick up a Vent (or a cheaper Lex?) for my XK1 and probably equal or exceed the quality of the SK1's on board Leslie sim. So in the final analysis for me, it probably comes down to whether the SK1's portability and all-in-one simplicity is worth it compared to my XK1. I have also of course considered swapping my XK1 out for an NE3 but its lack of physical drawbars, poor midi capabilities. and IMHO the slightly less authentic B3 sound engine are concerns. BTW... Sorry for my reference to "Hammond Nazi". There are more than enoough musical "Nazi's" for all manner of different instruments and musical genres, and I plead guilty to being one at times myself, especially when I'm in an old fart cranky mood. Gigs: Nord 5D 73, Kurz PC4-7 & SP4-7, Hammond SK1, Yamaha CK88, MX88, & P121, Numa Compact 2x, Casio CGP700, QSC K12, Yamaha DBR10, JBL515xt(2). Alto TS310(2) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I have also of course considered swapping my XK1 out for an NE3 but its lack of physical drawbars, poor midi capabilities. and IMHO the slightly less authentic B3 sound engine are concerns. Possibly largely addressed in the Electro 4D... Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELP71 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I was irritated at the lack of "clicky" drawbars, but let's be honest. They're not trying to reproduce the "Hammond experience" with this product, other than sound. The "drawfaders" are a bonus, really. If you want a true "B3 clone", they still sell the XK3c. Weasels ripped my flesh. Rzzzzzzz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSS Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 I have also of course considered swapping my XK1 out for an NE3 but its lack of physical drawbars, poor midi capabilities. and IMHO the slightly less authentic B3 sound engine are concerns. Possibly largely addressed in the Electro 4D... Agreed... I'm anxious to check the new NE 4D out but, like other Nord stuff, it might be rather pricey after it makes it across the Atlantic. Also, based on the scant info I've seen, I'm still not sure if the new 4D is multi-timbral. http://beta.musicradar.com/gear/all/keys-synths/pianos-and-personal-keyboards/personal-keyboards/electro-4d-556788/review Gigs: Nord 5D 73, Kurz PC4-7 & SP4-7, Hammond SK1, Yamaha CK88, MX88, & P121, Numa Compact 2x, Casio CGP700, QSC K12, Yamaha DBR10, JBL515xt(2). Alto TS310(2) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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