What is wrong with me?

[Michelle ggurl]

[its not fun, Ive said it every time these new songs get thrown on the agenda, and even though Im trying to put my best foot forward and force myself to do the homework, last nite, I was actually experiencing anxiety just getting through the chord changes, forget dialing up a shitty synth patch to play it. I could use the bread, but I have a fkn day job now, so I feel the same way: Play what I want. I guess the other issue in this is Im at that point where if a tree falls in the forest, and no one was there, Im not sure it makes a sound: In other words, I like playing in front of 200 people a lot more than 25, so the Attention Deficit whore in me wants the attention, but not at this expense.

 

I think your response here says a whole lot, Tony. I've chosen the path of musical fulfillment over playing music I don't like only for money, and I have enough experience doing both to know what I like and don't like, and it really isn't an isolated incident of (in my case) just not liking to work in one casuals/cover band. In fact I became best of friends with most the folks I was in one of those bands with, but I will likely never go down that road again. Music biz is hard enough without having to play soul-killing music on top of that, however you define that.

 

If you are legitimately having anxiety attacks, to me that is a real problem.

 

I realize these guys want to make money, but I am curious as to why the repertoire focus changed so quickly. I agree with others who say a band meeting is in order: you can air your feelings about current repertoire, remind them of what you guys started out intending to do, and emphasize how much you really, really love playing with them and would continue to do so if there was a shift in repertoire (how big of one, leave up to negotiation based on your gut).

 

Regarding the jam-band thing, I'm sorry to hear it's not coming together. I know you have experience pulling together viable bands so this must be hard, and the news of its difficulty is unexpected to me.

 

If you want a radical solution to your problem, see if your job will allow you to move to the Bay Area; there actually IS a jam-band scene of sorts here. You might not be playing to 200 people, but hey, I almost never am by doing what I'm doing, but I'm doing what I love. And I just might be able to say I feel my current gig is the most musically rewarding I've ever had.

[allan_evett]

It's bad enough having to play some of the gigs I already have. Adding more suck to the ratio wouldn't be good for my mental health.....

 

One the other hand....

 

How much does the gig pay?

 

From one ho to another: Therein lies the dilemma: I think it will pay very well.

 

 

Dilemma, indeed, from one ho' to two others... I just jumped bands due to the pay factor. In a bigger market, I'd likely job around, vs. commit to one act. I'm just a music tramp who got his start in the church; who'd a thunk ?

[Michelle ggurl]

Another thing comes to mind: I don't know if you've mentioned the ages of these other guys, but if most of them are in the target age group of the audience (particularly the singer), you guys might get some real mileage out of reinterpreting the classic songs YOU like to play. As I was reading another response of yours, Tony, I kept thinking about the band Jet. I don't have a whole lot of familiarity with them, but they seem to be a fairly recent band with a very retro feel if I remember correctly. Whether you personally love or hate them I don't know, but if you have the same take then maybe it's possible to find newer bands with a real rock 'n' roll energy and combine that repertoire with older stuff that also kicks ass, and tie it together visually because the band (especially the singer) has the goods.

 

You did mention another point, which is, how many 25-year-olds want to see 45-year-olds playing their music for them? If that really is the image your band is presenting, it might have some inherent flaws attempting to go after that market. Just my .02.

[Dana.]

To that I say, even though it's just starting booking, it is NOT in dive bars but actual premier clubs in the suburbs (250-800 capacity).

"Suburbs" is the key word. I think your location is a limiting factor and ultimately determining demand.

[Griffinator]

I'm confused by your post: what this band would be playing IS the latest stuff on MTV...or at least the radio equivalent.

 

And the pull of "safe money" is what, playing this modern rock? Or doing the jam thing??? I'm not sure what your advice is, or what your stance is.

 

Safe money is doing what all the other bar bands do - a bunch of staples and whatever's on the radio last week.

 

A high risk maneuver is carving yourself out a niche doing the jam band thing (unless there is an excess of such bands in your area, I don't know the scene). You could develop a really strong following if you fully dedicate yourself to delivering the complete experience (well, they'd have to BYOD...) and become in demand for it, or it could flop miserably and you'd be playing dives for crap money for a while until you got sick of it.

[Tonysounds]

Im the oldest in the band, but only by a handful of years and none of us really looks quite as old as we are although we do not look 25. (Luckily for them, I am not the best looking guy in the band by any means!) The singer currently is attracting a 30-45 year old audience.

 

I dont hate all the material, and Ive been able to suggest some things that fit with the style shift (Gavin DeGraw, Trains dreaded drops), but the new stuff that is being railroaded in makes the original 70s things seem completely at odds and soon to be discarded. Doing a couple songs I hate isnt the issue; doing a predominantly distasteful set list is, and its populated with music that (no offense to those bands and the work theyve done) have absolutely no appeal to me: Pee On Trees, 30 Seconds to Mars, (not so) Good Charlotte.

 

And you couldnt get further away from jam music without a motor vehicle.

 

[CEB]

I've never heard of any of those bands.

[Dana.]

If your band members are as top-notch as you say they are, why waste their talents by being just another cover band playing these songs straight? Take a cue from Jon Brion and recontextualize them. If, collectively, you can figure out what it's going to take to make playing these songs interesting and fun for you (extreme example: play them as polkas), you may be able to carve out a niche for the band and make it worth your while.

[Tonysounds]

Safe money is doing what all the other bar bands do - a bunch of staples and whatever's on the radio last week.

 

A high risk maneuver is carving yourself out a niche doing the jam band thing (unless there is an excess of such bands in your area, I don't know the scene). You could develop a really strong following if you fully dedicate yourself to delivering the complete experience (well, they'd have to BYOD...) and become in demand for it, or it could flop miserably and you'd be playing dives for crap money for a while until you got sick of it.

 

Thanks for the clarification, it helps a lot!

 

What Im finding about the jam scene here in town (so far) is that there is one really good band (Mr. Blotto) who do covers and their own music (4 albums or more of it, one of which was reviewed in Keyboard a number of years ago, their keyboardist at the time was really very very good, and became a pal of mine). They work a few weekends a month, and have a loyal following. And theyre more or less my age.

 

The rest are 20something bands, most of whom are very enthusiastic, but not quite so proficient yet, either in execution or mostly in songwriting. There is definitely room for another jam band that can play great material (covers and originals, even if the originals arent forthcoming yet), and while I dont expect it to be a great breadwinner, I expect it to be satisfying. That requires players. And while Im finding those players, they are more of the mind of how much does it pay (of course), but not willing to do extend any effort to get it up and running, when there are Sopranos reruns and Makers to be had. Im not giving up hopebut man, much tougher than I ever imagined it would be.

 

[stepay]

So I've been trying and failing to get the jam band going.

 

Meanwhile, I find myself in all kinds of other musical situations that are about as far removed from that as you can get while still playing music. I'm about to walk away from a startup with a bunch of very talented players, all of whom are in other bands, led by a very good vocalist with an excellent track record of getting a project off the ground and lucrative.

 

I was drafted by him into this band, and while it started off with music I like (sort of 70s hits no one does, like Born to Run, I Came For You, stuff like that), and it rather quickly turned into modern covers by All American Rejects, Neon Trees, James Blunt, etc.

 

And I hate it. That music gives me an anxiety attack just listening to it. Guitar and synths play the same parts. Can't tell a chorus from a verse. The kind of stuff I would have laughed at when I was 20.

 

And I know that when I walk away from this thing, it'll be a serious bread torque-er. The players are very good. The vocals are very good. But the music is NOT very good, and it'll probably do extremely well with the 25year olds. Do 25 years really want to watch 45 years do this? It's not going to change my mind, but what would YOU do?

 

WTF.

 

Good Lord...James Blunt? Oh man what deal with the devil did that guy make? I would walk, no run, away from that band today.

 

Do you guys talk about the songs? In MOST of my former bands (one not so much), if ANYONE had a problem with a certain song, we'd not play it. Being forced to play a James Blunt song is like...well, being forced to play a James Blunt song.

 

Not just no, but HELL NO!

[Analogaddict]

And the thing about the call back is important to me. I have gone to auditions or taken sub gigs knowing I would not take the gig when it was offered (Im so arrogant, it never occurs to me itll be an if situation), but prepared thoroughly and went so that I could make contacts for the future, and walked away from an opportunity making them want me. It has never served me wrong that I know of. I want to keep it that way.

 

That's how I roll too. :-) A word of wisdom I heard not many years ago was that (in essence) 'what you do, you get more of' - ergo - focus on stuff you enjoy and end up doing more of it..!

[montunoman]

You did mention another point, which is, how many 25-year-olds want to see 45-year-olds playing their music for them?

 

I don't know.... When I was in high school in the late 80's, kids at my school were really into the Greatful Dead. By that time the members of that band most have been well into their 40's. I'm sure this was a bit atypical, but I think there will always be a "retro" market.

 

[kanker.]

It's bad enough having to play some of the gigs I already have. Adding more suck to the ratio wouldn't be good for my mental health.....

 

One the other hand....

 

How much does the gig pay?

 

From one ho to another: Therein lies the dilemma: I think it will pay very well.

In other words - it's not the suck, it's the swallow....

[J. Dan]

how many 25-year-olds want to see 45-year-olds playing their music for them? If that really is the image your band is presenting, it might have some inherent flaws attempting to go after that market. Just my .02.

 

We have lots of 20-something's in our crowd...all though I suppose one could make the case that we are age appropriate for what we play. Our ages range around 34 to 48 or so. It's all in the delivery.

[Bill H.]

The room I DJ for is mostly the age of my kids. It wasn't something that I planned or even thought possible. I subbed a couple of times as a favor to an old friend who was managing the room, and the job just stuck.

 

To this day I can't believe that they accept me as a DJ but they do. Anything is possible if the music's right.

[Michelle ggurl]

You did mention another point, which is, how many 25-year-olds want to see 45-year-olds playing their music for them?

 

I don't know.... When I was in high school in the late 80's, kids at my school were really into the Greatful Dead. By that time the members of that band most have been well into their 40's. I'm sure this was a bit atypical, but I think there will always be a "retro" market.

 

yeah, but the big difference here is that you are talking about an original band doing their own material, and one that has iconic status within their genre. I am talking about cover bands hired to entertain a certain demographic. Seems to me members of those bands tend to look more like the demographic they are hired to serve on the party scene. Bands doing their own original music (especially if they are established bands) is a completely different matter. I know there are exceptions, and I could be wrong about the scene where Tony is, too, because I don't know the bars or clientele firsthand.

[Michelle ggurl]

We have lots of 20-something's in our crowd...all though I suppose one could make the case that we are age appropriate for what we play. Our ages range around 34 to 48 or so. It's all in the delivery.

 

To this day I can't believe that they accept me as a DJ but they do. Anything is possible if the music's right.

 

These anecdotes give me hope in terms of Tony's situation. I was especially hoping you'd chime in on this, Dan (but yes, I admit, whether I am right or not, that I assume "age appropriate"-ness for material is a factor of whether a band pulls off a given repertoire).

 

So Tony, I hope the situation works out so you don't have to play the tunes that cause anxiety attacks ... it sounds like if you can lobby for some songs you at least like somewhat that it could still be a salvageable gig.

 

And I definitely hope you don't give up on the jam-band idea. I know the dilemma you speak of (mercenary talent vs. young and eager but still green players) very well.

[Dglavko]

Life's too short to do something you hate you hate for long... but a little while is ok sometimes. Talk to the others in the group who you respect - maybe they feel the same way, and you'll make some connections of benefit later on...?

[Tonysounds]

Interesting meeting last nite. Turns out everyone has the same problems/issues I do. Everyone showed up not knowing or confused about something. The sick thing is we can hammer these songs together in about 5 minutes and make them sound good. But being able to warm up a can of soup isnt exactly cooking, is it, and doesnt change the fact that youre still eating canned soup.

 

But politically, we all had the same reservations: not in love with the material, are we too old, etc. So the conversation was very good, although nothing was resolved. The leader shares our concerns: hed rather play the 70s material we worked up, but fears that once we get out there, audience response will dictate that material falls by the wayside. And his logic and theory are sound, younger crowds in bars, female positive music means draw, and you cant keep a band together if its not making money.

 

Nothing resolved except arrangement issues, but everyones feelings are on the table, nobody is stressed that someone shows up unprepared, and everyone calmly helps everyone else out.

Drummer and I had a good post- conversation on the way home and his experience finding a project he likes has been dismal as well, theres a lot of garbage out there, etc. and hes hoping that if this doesnt pan out, hes made some new contacts with talented players, so I pitched my jam band idea to him, and while he doesnt know much about jam music, is interested.

 

So now I have a bassist and a drummermaybe.

 

Meanwhile, I am scheduling an initial rehearsal for a new funk/soul project (getting closer to jam music!) with a female vocalist with the voice of Susan Tedeschi and Aretha.

 

Homer and Ulysses have nothing on me.

 

[Steve Force]

..Meanwhile, I am scheduling an initial rehearsal for a new funk/soul project (getting closer to jam music!) with a female vocalist with the voice of Susan Tedeschi and Aretha.

 

who???

 

[Adan]

I think it's an issue, let's call it a "leadership" issue, for lack of a better term, when someone forms a band for one purpose and then does a bait and switch, turning the band into something else. From Tony's description, this bandleader does not sound like a sketchmeister. He seems to be a stand-up guy. Even so, recruiting players to do one thing and then changing the band's core material is not the coolest of moves.

 

Ever since early homojampithicus began banging sticks onto stones in some semblance of rhythm, musicians have struggled with the dilema of playing what they like versus what most folks will pay to hear. It's a personal choice and very difficult to advise someone else except perhaps helping them understand what it is they truly want.

 

I understand the perspective of "life's too short to play music you don't like," but on the other hand, if the money is enough to really make a difference to your financial bottom line, why not do it? Which is a worse way to spend a Saturday night, waiting on tables or being on stage playing James Blunt?

 

I tend to think of my musical endeavors as bifurcated between those I do for enjoyment and those I do for the money. This is an obvious oversimplification. The ones I do for enjoyment, such a playing jazz, do pay a little, and the ones I do for money, such as dance cover bands, are not completely unenjoyable. But if pressed, I'd have to say the former are my pleasure and the latter are a job. And lo and behold, there is time for both.

[David Loving]

If the pay is good, I'd bite my tongue and learn the stuff. It's amazing how money will assuage that suckiness.

[Moonglow]

....Ive been able to suggest some things that fit with the style shift (Gavin DeGraw, Trains dreaded drops)....

Ya know, T, you may be on to something here with these type of tunes. I'm wondering if more tolerable material like Train, Maroon Five, Muse, would still appeal to the younger crowd, yet not seem out of place when performed by (older) guys like us.

[Dana.]

you cant keep a band together if its not making money.

While I understand the perspective you're coming from, I don't agree with this as a universal statement.

 

I'm wondering if more tolerable material like Train, Maroon Five, Muse, would still appeal to the younger crowd, yet not seem out of place when performed by (older) guys like us.

"Tolerable" is a relative term, but I don't see any of these bands generating more interest than the ones mentioned initially. Pursuing your jam band idea seems far more gratifying an endeavor than trying to make this cover band fly.

[montunoman]

I understand the perspective of "life's too short to play music you don't like," but on the other hand, if the money is enough to really make a difference to your financial bottom line, why not do it? Which is a worse way to spend a Saturday night, waiting on tables or being on stage playing James Blunt?

 

 

This.

[montunoman]

If the pay is good, I'd bite my tongue and learn the stuff. It's amazing how money will assuage that suckiness.

 

And this.

[Tonysounds]

you cant keep a band together if its not making money.

While I understand the perspective you're coming from, I don't agree with this as a universal statement.

 

I'm wondering if more tolerable material like Train, Maroon Five, Muse, would still appeal to the younger crowd, yet not seem out of place when performed by (older) guys like us.

"Tolerable" is a relative term, but I don't see any of these bands generating more interest than the ones mentioned initially. Pursuing your jam band idea seems far more gratifying an endeavor than trying to make this cover band fly.

 

Dbon.do you work as a cover musician? No snarkiness intended, but comments youve made in this and other threads make me wonder if you are so removed from the reality of the gigging rock band/club dynamic that you just dont understand it, or whether you live in a place where people PAY to see good music, and do it often. (If that is the case, WHERE is this place?)

 

When youre talking about COVER bands, you have taken Art (I wont say creativity, but hopefully, without offending anyone, we do understand that there are levels of creativity/art, and that accurately recreating someone elses material ranks pretty low on the Art Ladder, even though it takes a certain amount of craftsmanship) out of the equation, and it is now about economics. People go to bars to get drunk, get laid, hear the music that will facilitate those goals. At least in Chicago, if you want to gig original material, you will work for what I call the burrito and beer tour, meaning at the end of the night, the band will make about enough money for everyone to go get a burrito and a beer. If you want to get paid to play music, you will play covers. How much you get paid is directly proportionate to how many people you bring in. And sadly, truly sadly, what brings people in are bad Rap Cover Bands (meaning 5-10 goofs onstage with no instruments, with asses hanging OVER the top of their pants, girls with hotpants or less, and hood ornaments around their necks), or an endless array of bands playing the same 43 songs consisting of BonJourneyBoy, Oreo StyxWagon, Dont Stop The Heavin Jesses Brown Eyed Girl Workin for the Weekend in the Summer of 69s , buttressed by some unheavy version of Enter Sandman, Rock You Like A Hurricane, and Panama. But then of course, the are the truly unique bands who will do medleys of those songs.

http://www.macosxaudio.com/forums/download/file.php?avatar=4674_1263587685.gif

 

And then there are the usual 2 bands who are clamoring near the top of the food chain wearing (no offense Dan) costumes and wigs and porno moustaches playing shit-awful covers of yet that same material again and packaging is as an ironic wedding band. (Except, like Alanis MoreisLess, they truly dont understand what irony is.)

 

All of which leads to the sad truth that if you want to perform music outside the studio or your basement/garage, you will be a participant in one of those above scenarios, or be playing for your girlfriends (for a while) and the wait staff at your corner pub. There is nothing wrong with that. But when $$$ enters the equation, all dignified thought goes out the window, and the lowest common denominator wins.

 

Doubt me?

 

How many pages is the Sweet Home Alabama thread?

 

How many times has someone started a thread wanting to know how to play the arpeggiated riff in Working For The Weekend (guilty), or the intro to Turn Me Loose, or looking for the tab to Jump?

 

Ive played all sides of the fence, doing nothing but original music, slogging it out on three band bills for burritos and beer until we built a following, toured across the country for years in a van/trailer, played in wedding bands where the $$$ was very good. And you know what? It all ends the same way: eventually, if the band is not making money, it breaks up, either because of disinterest (first by audience, or club talent buyers, then eventually by the band), or lack of return on their investment (whether that investment equals to time, financial remunerations, or artistic/spiritual fulfillment). Doesnt matter what kind of music you do, or the way you do it (solo/duo/band/at home). If youre not getting back, you stop putting in. And when it comes to performing live in front of an audience, its just not about YOUR renumeration.

 

So in that regard, the singer is dead one: You cant keep a band together if its not making money.

 

[Tonysounds]

you cant keep a band together if its not making money.

While I understand the perspective you're coming from, I don't agree with this as a universal statement.

 

I'm wondering if more tolerable material like Train, Maroon Five, Muse, would still appeal to the younger crowd, yet not seem out of place when performed by (older) guys like us.

"Tolerable" is a relative term, but I don't see any of these bands generating more interest than the ones mentioned initially. Pursuing your jam band idea seems far more gratifying an endeavor than trying to make this cover band fly.

 

Gratifying, absofknglutely. Will the other thing make money? I believe it will, my own feelings aside. For now, I will continue to live without sleep and try it all until I get one of these to catch fire.

[Tonysounds]

Jesus...I sound like a bitter old fk.

[Dana.]

Dbon.do you work as a cover musician? No snarkiness intended, but comments youve made in this and other threads make me wonder if you are so removed from the reality of the gigging rock band/club dynamic that you just dont understand it, or whether you live in a place where people PAY to see good music, and do it often. (If that is the case, WHERE is this place?)

I do not work as a cover musician, but having worked in the music industry for many years, I am fully aware of what you've outlined. I live in New York City, where I pay to see good music of all types regularly. My interest in music is not predicated on making money, so that's why, in part, my perspective is different from yours.