Sorta OT: Yucky sound abounds

[CrimsonianKing]

Brings to mind a conversation I had with one of my nephews quite awhile ago... he told me he had over 3,000 mp3's in his collection. I wanted to say something like, "back in my day, we had to pay for our music."

 

 

haha, oh yeah, a lot of younger people don't know what they're missing . I remember a few years back i was in this band with younger guys, we had our own studio and would always listen to music from an ipod plugged into some speakers in between sets, i once took my whole system/vinyl player to the studio and brought some Floyd records, Queen records, and so on...I tell ya, they had the shock of their lives. Those were the singer's words "I had no idea what i was missing, thanks". Since then, last time i talked to him he had a 500 hundred records collection and that was just months later.

[reidmc]

Several things have killed expression and nuance in pop music. Among them are the rise of metal and hip-hop, mp3, iPod + stock headset and audio processing of commercial radio. Listening to T-Pain does not require a $7500 tube pre-amp. The rise of home video is a stealth culprit too, sucking up the space and the money that used to be allocated to home stereo.

 

All that said, those of us who still have audiophile 2-channel audio can literally stun interested young listeners by playing them some real music (Bill Evans, Aretha Franklin, Vienna Philharmonic, etc.) in a decent listening room.

 

 

[kanker.]

Several things have killed expression and nuance in pop music. Among them are the rise of metal and hip-hop........All that said, those of us who still have audiophile 2-channel audio can literally stun interested young listeners by playing them some real music.....

http://www.macosxaudio.com/forums/download/file.php?avatar=4674_1263587685.gif

[Cygnus64]

On the other hand, I don't know of people who print out a copy of a Picaso's or a Da Vinci's painting and put it up there in their living room, do you?

Only the millions of people who have bought prints.

[CrimsonianKing]

On the other hand, I don't know of people who print out a copy of a Picaso's or a Da Vinci's painting and put it up there in their living room, do you?

Only the millions of people who have bought prints.

 

I knew someone would say that I meant from a regular computer printer or just any cheap lossy copy, where the colors won't be as vivid or as colourful, you get my point. To put it in a better way, a mp3 is like taking a picture of a painting from your celphone, you have the whole thing in this jpg file (or whatever), yet it's not the same quality as the real thing, is it? I know some artists couldn't care less but some do, they worked their asses off to put out something well-produced and enjoyable and filling your ears with a compressed shitty quality is kind of disrespectful in a way, isnt' it?

[kanker.]

I know some artists couldn't care less but some do, they worked their asses off to put out something well-produced and enjoyable and filling your ears with a compressed shitty quality is kind of disrespectful in a way, isnt' it?

I'll remember that when I'm listening to my W.C. Handy collection.

[CrimsonianKing]

I know some artists couldn't care less but some do, they worked their asses off to put out something well-produced and enjoyable and filling your ears with a compressed shitty quality is kind of disrespectful in a way, isnt' it?

I'll remember that when I'm listening to my W.C. Handy collection.

 

[Cygnus64]

I know some artists couldn't care less but some do, they worked their asses off to put out something well-produced and enjoyable and filling your ears with a compressed shitty quality is kind of disrespectful in a way, isnt' it?

That's hilarious.

 

Here's how someone can respect me: pay me. If you buy a disc, you can use it for a coaster as far as I'm concerned. If you buy a ticket, you can sleep through the whole damn show if you'd like, more power to ya. Just pay me. I try hard for me, it's personal. How the audience chooses to listen to my music or shows is up to them.

 

I suppose, by your criteria, that listeners must be 100% sober?

 

I meant from a regular computer printer or just any cheap lossy copy, where the colors won't be as vivid or as colourful, you get my point.

Actually, I don't get your point. I have a picture of Barney Fife in a frame that I printed from my home printer. It's funny. It makes me larf. That's all I need from it. Art can exist on many, many levels. I dig my Delco radio: it's not because I don't have a good ear, it's because every time I hear it I'm driving to/from a gig that had 80 pro musicians on the stage. After that, the finest sound system in the world is like a Victrola compared to the real deal.

[CrimsonianKing]

That's hilarious.

 

Here's how someone can respect me: pay me. If you buy a disc, you can use it for a coaster as far as I'm concerned. If you buy a ticket, you can sleep through the whole damn show if you'd like, more power to ya. Just pay me. I try hard for me, it's personal. How the audience chooses to listen to my music or shows is up to them.

 

I suppose, by your criteria, that listeners must be 100% sober?

 

But that's just you, isn't it? i can understand and respect that way of thinking, but it just isn't mine. Money is one of the priorities in my life but not THE priority. And before you ask, yes, i have a family to feed, still, money wouldn't be my primary interest in that case. Of course we can't control how the public will listen to our music, i'm not that naive, but i'm just saying that I and many others listeners/musicians like to get the best experience out of a record we can. You don't have to agree

 

Actually, I don't get your point. I have a picture of Barney Fife in a frame that I printed from my home printer. It's funny. It makes me larf. That's all I need from it. Art can exist on many, many levels. I dig my Delco radio: it's not because I don't have a good ear, it's because every time I hear it I'm driving to/from a gig that had 80 pro musicians on the stage. After that, the finest sound system in the world is like a Victrola compared to the real deal.

 

I agree that art can exist on many or any level, but yes you didn't get my point, you can use your vinil/cd/painting whatever way you want, you paid for it after all. but once again i like my experience to be the best possible, you hear that bell sound on track 3 on the left speaker at 1:34? most people don't notice or care about that, i do. That's my whole point, there was a reason that bell sound was there, and the worse the quality, the harder it'll be for you to hear that sound.

 

 

[Cygnus64]

It's interesting that the breakdown is largely by age. Why? IMO because the older you get, the more you realize that the goal is elusive and ultimately unattainable. One wants to get higher and higher with music (and sometimes with other stuff too), but ya can't. There's a finite limit, there is only so much emotion that can come from woofers and tweeters. Being in the room is the emotional experience, nothing else compares. That bell being crystal clear or semi-clear is nothing like being in the room with the bell. Listen to a fancypants recording of Mahler 6 some time, then go see it live. On the disc you hear a "boom". At the show, this dude takes this giant hammer thingy and knocks the living shiat outta the drum. It doesn't matter much if it's a Technics receiver or Adcom or Mark Levinson: ain't nuttin' like the dude with the giant hammer thingy unless you are there.

 

 

i like my experience to be the best possible,

Sometimes the best way isn't the best way. Really, do I want to go out and purchase a picture of Barney Fife? I'm fine with the free one from my printer. I won't get anything out of the paid one that I can get from the free one.

[CrimsonianKing]

It's interesting that the breakdown is largely by age. Why? IMO because the older you get, the more you realize that the goal is elusive and ultimately unattainable. One wants to get higher and higher with music (and sometimes with other stuff too), but ya can't. There's a finite limit, there is only so much emotion that can come from woofers and tweeters. Being in the room is the emotional experience, nothing else compares. That bell being crystal clear or semi-clear is nothing like being in the room with the bell. Listen to a fancypants recording of Mahler 6 some time, then go see it live. On the disc you hear a "boom". At the show, this dude takes this giant hammer thingy and knocks the living shiat outta the drum. It doesn't matter much if it's a Technics receiver or Adcom or Mark Levinson: ain't nuttin' like the dude with the giant hammer thingy unless you are there.

 

 

100% Agree on that Live experience is indeed so much better, nothing beats it.

 

Sometimes the best way isn't the best way. Really, do I want to go out and purchase a picture of Barney Fife? I'm fine with the free one from my printer. I won't get anything out of the paid one that I can get from the free one.

 

Yeah, "best" is indeed subjective, but you know i meant as far as quality can go. Do i prefer to listen to my Dark Side of The Moon vinyl with my system or as a 192kbps Mp3 from my celphone? That's all i meant.

[Cygnus64]

Yeah, "best" is indeed subjective, but you know i meant as far as quality can go. Do i prefer to listen to my Dark Side of The Moon vinyl with my system or as a 192kbps Mp3 from my celphone? That's all i meant.

Let's bookmark this thread and come back to it in 20 years. I'll be 67 then.

 

I'm as surprised as you are. When I was in my 20s, the goal was to have the greatest sound system in the history of mankind. In my 30s, I wanted (and had) a very nice system. In my 40s, it doesn't have the same meaning to me. I have nice monitors of course, but the days of drooling over pre-amps and anything else are long gone.

[Dana.]

Several things have killed expression and nuance in pop music. Among them are the rise of metal and hip-hop........All that said, those of us who still have audiophile 2-channel audio can literally stun interested young listeners by playing them some real music.....

http://www.macosxaudio.com/forums/download/file.php?avatar=4674_1263587685.gif

I think kanker is gesturing to metal and hip-hop not being considered "real music." Sorry, buddy, both are here to stay. Even in "God's Country."

[kanker.]

Several things have killed expression and nuance in pop music. Among them are the rise of metal and hip-hop........All that said, those of us who still have audiophile 2-channel audio can literally stun interested young listeners by playing them some real music.....

http://www.macosxaudio.com/forums/download/file.php?avatar=4674_1263587685.gif

I think kanker is gesturing to metal and hip-hop not being considered "real music." Sorry, buddy, both are here to stay. Even in "God's Country."

Yep, there's rampant crap in every genre of music, and there's brilliant art in every genre of music.

[CrimsonianKing]

Yeah, "best" is indeed subjective, but you know i meant as far as quality can go. Do i prefer to listen to my Dark Side of The Moon vinyl with my system or as a 192kbps Mp3 from my celphone? That's all i meant.

Let's bookmark this thread and come back to it in 20 years. I'll be 67 then.

 

I'm as surprised as you are. When I was in my 20s, the goal was to have the greatest sound system in the history of mankind. In my 30s, I wanted (and had) a very nice system. In my 40s, it doesn't have the same meaning to me. I have nice monitors of course, but the days of drooling over pre-amps and anything else are long gone.

 

Fair enough, let's. you know, you might be right, but i don't know, my dad is 63 and still an engineer/musician, he still cares, maybe that's the reason i care, i grew up in that environment, i don't know. Maybe i'll be like him or not, only time you tell

[MonksDream]

Like kanker, I don't but the 'quality' argument. For instance, I have a few Art Tatum 78s. They sound like crap. Glorious, brilliant crap, but crap nonetheless. Most vinyl was compressed to keep the needle from jumping out of the groove. Then that compressed signal was subjected to the indignity of AM radio. The result? Some of the greatest listening experiences of my life! An experience that can still thrill people who don't share my age or my history. I even think a case can be made that mp3s may be a more inherently accurate-sounding medium than vinyl was, all other things being equal. It ain't the medium that's the issue; it's the content. If the music doesn't thrill you it doesn't matter how the recording is stored.

 

I think its important to separate out one of the reasons for owning a nice stereo back in the day. A major motivation for high-end stereo specs was consumerist elitism. You showed your status by what you were willing to spend on an, admittedly, trivial pursuit in the grand scheme of things. I mean trivial compared to, say, food, shelter, and heat. That consumerist space has largely been taken over by computers, smartphones, and video entertainment systems. The upside is that even the most inexpensive audio devices sound way better than they used to. However the consumerist status display has shifted from high-fidelity reproduction to capacity and convenience of access.

[VanDerGraaf]

Hi everyone, this is my first post.

 

I have a simple idea that extrapolates the idea presented above.

The most important component in the audio chain is.....you.

 

Every individual will be able to draw out a greater or lesser experience from recorded music, no matter what the playback medium, due to the emotional factors that make us human.

 

This admittedly takes the discussion away from the inherent fidelity present in a recording and its playback, yet I feel it's vitally important to acknowledge this as a fact.

 

I think this works in reverse too, for us as we create. I reached levels of emotional involvement as a mid-teen playing (and I use that term loosely ) my Casio CT630 in my bedroom that are equal to any thrills I experience today playing my Oasys in front of excited (if not exactly huge) audiences. The human being, not the gear, is the determinant factor.

 

As musicians we are more likely to bemoan what we feel the music-listening populace is "missing" in listening to poor quality reproductions. I've had a few moments like this myself.

 

In the end, when you're talking about playback, it's the soft machine that counts.

 

 

Edit- Just realised it isn't my first post. If only every time felt like the first!

 

I've been reading on here for ages. Seems like a great forum!

[Synthoid]

This thread has certainly been entertaining thus far.

 

[ITGITC]

 

This thread has certainly been entertaining thus far.

 

 

Ummmmm, yes.

 

Consider the contributors.

 

 

My vision:

 

... all of us packed into a neighborhood pub after work on a Friday afternoon, beverage of choice in hand, talking sht like this.

 

Imagine the possibilities.

 

Tom

 

 

 

[David Loving]

I have a little bose thing out in my garage/studio but I only listen to the radio on it. I listen to an iPod in the car mostly - OK quality. Like many, I really don't care about stereo systems - my monster system of years ago is gathering dust in a relatives garage - years there and there to stay. I'm into quantity!

[Adan]

Like kanker, I don't but the 'quality' argument. For instance, I have a few Art Tatum 78s. They sound like crap. Glorious, brilliant crap, but crap nonetheless. Most vinyl was compressed to keep the needle from jumping out of the groove. Then that compressed signal was subjected to the indignity of AM radio. The result? Some of the greatest listening experiences of my life! An experience that can still thrill people who don't share my age or my history. I even think a case can be made that mp3s may be a more inherently accurate-sounding medium than vinyl was, all other things being equal. It ain't the medium that's the issue; it's the content. If the music doesn't thrill you it doesn't matter how the recording is stored.

 

I think its important to separate out one of the reasons for owning a nice stereo back in the day. A major motivation for high-end stereo specs was consumerist elitism. You showed your status by what you were willing to spend on an, admittedly, trivial pursuit in the grand scheme of things. I mean trivial compared to, say, food, shelter, and heat. That consumerist space has largely been taken over by computers, smartphones, and video entertainment systems. The upside is that even the most inexpensive audio devices sound way better than they used to. However the consumerist status display has shifted from high-fidelity reproduction to capacity and convenience of access.

 

Good insights here. Without subscribing to a theory of total determinism (v. free will), I think it should be acknowledged the culture (of which advertising is an important component) has played a role here. There was a time when most people believed that having an expensive sound system was a big quality of life enhancer. Why did they believe that? In part, because they were bombarded by that message from all sides.

 

I think, eventually, the realization arrived that if you have a party for 30 people, you can just stick an ipod in a small portable player and the party will still be 99.9% as good as if I was using a massive sound system. The fixation on primo sound systems was, in large part, a cultural phenomenon.

 

My thing is, I'm not in any one place long enough to enjoy a big sound system. If I'm in one place for a long time, then it's probably my music room and I'm probably practicing, which includes listening to music through headphones or studio monitors with one finger on the repeat button as I try to learn a passage.

 

The only times I can leisurely listen to music are: in the car, on the beach, on an airplane, etc . . .

[CrimsonianKing]

This thread has certainly been entertaining thus far.

 

 

Ummmmm, yes.

 

Consider the contributors.

 

 

My vision:

 

... all of us packed into a neighborhood pub after work on a Friday afternoon, beverage of choice in hand, talking sht like this.

 

Imagine the possibilities.

 

Tom

 

 

 

No way, you'll bring your Ipods

[Synthoid]

My vision:

 

... all of us packed into a neighborhood pub after work on a Friday afternoon, beverage of choice in hand, talking sht like this.

 

I look forward to it.

 

[synthizen2]

There was a time when most people believed that having an expensive sound system was a big quality of life enhancer. Why did they believe that? In part, because they were bombarded by that message from all sides.

 

Your comment reminds me of this old 70s TV commercial:

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DP89iMe0BY

 

[Meisenhower]

I listen to music on a variety of mediums ranging from earbuds on my iPhone or small decent quality monitors attached to my iMac, or my car stereo (which for car stereo is pretty good) or my playback/monitoring system in my studio to ultimately my home 2 channel audiophile stereo system (that cost 3.5 times more than my first house).

 

The point really isn't to debate if my audiophile system sounds better than music coming from my computer system (of course it does). but rather to understand how and why over time that people have become less interested in how something sounds (in general).

 

Low quality mp3's rule the listening devices of most people now. It's amazing to hear the how much information is missing from a low rez mp3. They want it cheap (read:free), they want tons of it (thousands of songs) and they want to take it with them everywhere they go.

 

I'm all about convenience, especially when I'm being utilitarian about my musical needs. I don't need to sit in the sweet spot of my system to figure out parts or work on a transcription. I enjoy music on my iPhone and regularly change up the playlists to keep things fresh. I like having a few thousand tunes at my fingertips to listen to in my car when the radio sucks (as it does most often these days).

 

If I have a house full of people and I'm entertaining, I'll always use music from the computer to play background, as to not interrupt the flow of entertainment, or my having to change albums and even can play it on the megabuck home system.

 

However, when it comes to the pure and simple act of "listening to music for pleasure and the sake of listening", for me there is simply no substitute for a high quality system.

 

Is this for everyone? Clearly it isn't.

 

This isn't status consumerism, anymore than someone who is a tennis fanatic puts a tennis court in their backyard. I barely own a television (a small 24" in my bedroom) and have only have basic cable (which never gets watched), because I got HS internet from the same people.

 

Spending $100K on a grand piano to look good in a room in your house, when no one plays is status consumerism.

 

The iPod generation often wouldn't know a decent recording if it bit them in the ass, but since they don't care, it is of no consequence. The days of a discerning general population are largely over and it doesn't appear that it will be coming back anytime soon.

 

That is the real tragedy, isn't that they can't tell the difference, but that they don't care that there IS a difference.

[Theo Verelst]

I'm for people wanting to hear great music on good systems, but I presume there are good argumentations possible to make sure there are limits to what will resound through a thousand barns and a hundred thousand milk package sized multimedia surround systems.

 

When I make relative (but still hopelessly less q than e.g. the 96kHz flac 24 bit files for HDtracks or some 32 bit 192 kHz masters I try to make ) good quality mp3s I test them most of the time on the following systems to mark for myself the differences between them and the pro CDs and blurays I like:

 

* various computer monitors / large screens

* a few different brand notebooks

* a good sounding mobile phone (Nokia Communicator)

* sometimes a small TV and my small stereo monitors

* medium sized bi-amped monitors (own make)

* large (for stereo "huge") monitoring system, 5 way, three way multi-amped

* car-stereo (Pioneer, not very recent but good sounding Audi speakers with by me boosted sub woofer) which can work quite well with cds and the number of FM radio stations worth listening to

* AKG K271, Sennheiser headphones, various earbuds including moderately good Sony

 

Using CD player, portable CD player, the phone (audio out), various computer interfaces (among which 192kHz 24 bit low distortion used to upconvert CDs with high quality filter), varying Lexicon DA converters, 192kS/s HDMI and a high quality 16 bits self-made usb converter as sources.

 

it's a big challenge, reminding me often that by far best works to take a fairly neutral system to monitor, then *all* the rest works, within reason, pretty well. And that would be 192kS/s driven main monitors and/or the K271 which match better than pure change can give...

[CEB]

It's Only Music If It's Live.

[Cygnus64]

Low quality mp3's rule the listening devices of most people now. It's amazing to hear the how much information is missing from a low rez mp3.

 

I posted this here before I think: a few years ago I did an informal test between .wav and mp3s. I'm not suggesting it was some laboratory test, it wasnt. I had some people over and played both through my monitors. Nobody could successfully tell the difference with any reasonable accuracy, it was a crapshoot.

 

These guys were musical badasses at the very top of the musical food chain. My point? I'm not sure. But in my living room with Tannoy Monitors, some seriously awesome musicians couldn't tell the difference between mp3 and wav.

[WWW]

I am really surprised that a disproportionate number of you guys listen to mp3's and think they sound fine. Through any acceptable system, they sound awful. CDs are better. 24/96 is netter yet. Vinyl is beautiful.

 

You all spent a ton of time talking about whether to go with a Vent or a Leslie, or whether a Nord piano beats out a Yamaha. Mono vs. stereo. But no one seems to give a shit about the sound of the reorded music they are listening to.

 

I find that to be bizarre.

 

Maybe it's all about your gear, and not your ears.

[CrimsonianKing]

Low quality mp3's rule the listening devices of most people now. It's amazing to hear the how much information is missing from a low rez mp3. They want it cheap (read:free), they want tons of it (thousands of songs) and they want to take it with them everywhere they go.

 

I'm all about convenience, especially when I'm being utilitarian about my musical needs. I don't need to sit in the sweet spot of my system to figure out parts or work on a transcription. I enjoy music on my iPhone and regularly change up the playlists to keep things fresh. I like having a few thousand tunes at my fingertips to listen to in my car when the radio sucks (as it does most often these days).

 

If I have a house full of people and I'm entertaining, I'll always use music from the computer to play background, as to not interrupt the flow of entertainment, or my having to change albums and even can play it on the megabuck home system.

 

However, when it comes to the pure and simple act of "listening to music for pleasure and the sake of listening", for me there is simply no substitute for a high quality system.

 

Is this for everyone? Clearly it isn't.

 

This isn't status consumerism, anymore than someone who is a tennis fanatic puts a tennis court in their backyard. I barely own a television (a small 24" in my bedroom) and have only have basic cable (which never gets watched), because I got HS internet from the same people.

 

Spending $100K on a grand piano to look good in a room in your house, when no one plays is status consumerism.

 

The iPod generation often wouldn't know a decent recording if it bit them in the ass, but since they don't care, it is of no consequence. The days of a discerning general population are largely over and it doesn't appear that it will be coming back anytime soon.

 

That is the real tragedy, isn't that they can't tell the difference, but that they don't care that there IS a difference.

 

+1 this! You said what i wanted to say from the beginning with better words. I'm all about convenience too, but like you said when it's something i really want to absorb while listening, i'll use my decent (no, i don't have a 20k system, i'm not that audiophile, just to make sure)home system, anywhere else a FLAC or even a 320kpbs mp3 does the job.