Sorta OT: Yucky sound abounds

[Cygnus64]

 

I don't need to give a million reasons. Only one.

 

You're a self aggrandizing child that I'm not going to indulge.

 

 

 

Gee, what a surprise. I guess we can add this to the data.

 

The smallest dogs always have the biggest bark.

 

[Synthoid]

 

I love this forum.

 

Hell, in my day we counted the transistors in our portable radios. If it had more than just a couple, you got to play God.

 

Tom

 

Good morning Tom. I sure hit a hornet's nest with a baseball bat when I started this thread!

 

[Adan]

As someone who makes a living arguing with people (and, btw, makes a concerted effort never to argue with anyone while off the clock), I'd just like to point out that there are two (closely related) false forms of argument here.

 

One is: "you are an XXX, therefore, I am correct in my position." This is the ol' ad hominem attack.

 

The other is, which is simply the reverse side of the coin, is: "I am a YYY, therefore I am correct in my position." Strangely, I don't know if there's a latin name for this one.

 

By the way, I just committed the second one, because I propped myself up as a professional arguer before claiming I knew what I was talking about.

[Meisenhower]

Adan,

 

The crux of the argument (false form or not) isn't as much that there are "two" sides to it, but rather a simple refusal by some to simply accept that a set of experiences that do not mirror one's own, doesn't by definition "invalidate" the experience of the other.

 

For some, there is no "other viewpoint" than their own and then the resultant discussion devolves to broad, ridiculous generalizations and ultimately "name calling" or some other form of attempted belittling.

 

I'm perfectly willing to accept the notion that not everyone can hear a difference between certain musical samples and the reasons why aren't very important. What is important is acknowledgment that because the fact that there ARE differences (which is undeniable), the possibility exists that someone will be able to perceive those differences.

 

Simply put there ARE two sides of that coin, why not acknowledge both sides?

 

This really shouldn't require professional mediation!

 

Arguing can be such good sport, especially when it is good natured!!

 

[Cygnus64]

As someone who makes a living arguing with people (and, btw, makes a concerted effort never to argue with anyone while off the clock), I'd just like to point out that there are two (closely related) false forms of argument here.

 

One is: "you are an XXX, therefore, I am correct in my position." This is the ol' ad hominem attack.

 

The other is, which is simply the reverse side of the coin, is: "I am a YYY, therefore I am correct in my position." Strangely, I don't know if there's a latin name for this one.

 

By the way, I just committed the second one, because I propped myself up as a professional arguer before claiming I knew what I was talking about.

Arguments happen on the internet. People get silly, I'm certainly not immune to this phenomenon, I can be as silly as the best of em. Part of it is the format: dry or acerbic wit doesn't come through in text very well, even with smilies.

 

..and then there's reality. People can make incredible claims with this format, since they usually don't have to back them up (Which reminds me, tonight 2 supermodels have invited me to play Baccarat with them and drive their Ferrari, but I digress). Siliness, ego, argument/debating aside, there are statements like this:

 

 

BTW, Cygnus, the 'blind' test you did comparing mp3s and wav files must not have been only blind, but deaf.

 

Really? Then I'm assuming you'll have no problem with taking and passing my test then. I may be stubborn, but I'm here to learn and I'll freely admit the error of my ways if you can pass the test.

 

Of course, we all know the outcome: I'll be accused of this and that, the test will be flawed because the planets are in disharmony, my dog ate my speakers, the check is in the mail, the source was/wasnt compressed/ blah blah blah.

 

If we're all serious musicians here, a test shouldnt really be much of a problem. I just did one with a wav and mp3 and I can't hear much of a difference, I freely admit it. I am listening with AKG headphones that cost about 80 bucks I think, pretty good but not world-class. I have a horrendous cold, but I'm expecting the same results when it goes away.

 

If someone is going to make claims like "(your test) must not have been only blind, but deaf", it sure would be interesting to see their own results. One way or the other, the results will probably be surprising.

 

[Eric Iverson]

All this makes me think about the fact that most of the time I listen to music through a cassette Walkman, CD Walkman or ghetto boom box (currently missing one channel).

About time I got a decent sound system, one I can play vinyl on - though I want to hear my cassettes and CDs, too, of course! Oh and there's great music on the radio and YouTube, which I listen to at work.

I've yet to get any IPods or mp3s or anything like that - eventually I may forced to. What little I've heard didn't really impress me as to sound quality, although you can't deny the convenience.

[CrimsonianKing]

Was there really a need for that, you two? no need to go that low, but oh well...

[ITGITC]

Was there really a need for that, you two? no need to go that low, but oh well...

 

Somebody farted.

 

 

[CrimsonianKing]

Was there really a need for that, you two? no need to go that low, but oh well...

 

Somebody farted.

 

 

[Meisenhower]

Was there really a need for that, you two? no need to go that low, but oh well...

 

Yeah, you're likely right. Poof.

[Adan]

Ah, well, it was probably a good call deleting that post Meisenhower. I was just going to say, I wouldn't mind have some parts of your life. Just not the Detroit part . . ..

 

Go Tigers!!!

 

edit: by the way, if you can afford a ferrari, then you can afford to upgrade from an NE2. That really should go without saying. But I'm just sayin'.

[Cygnus64]

Meisenhower, I think the revelant question is: Can the chick tell the difference between a wav and an mp3?

 

Dude, I have no personal beef with you. Honestly. And I know who said what and if you'll read, I identified wdl as the poster of that quote.

 

 

 

 

I've been in the music biz for 30 years. I see crazy, crazy stuff almost DAILY. Some examples:

 

1. Conductor says "play it like a windstorm in the Sahara". Orch. plays it exactly the same. COnductor says "Ahh, much better.

2. Conductor says to me (who is sitting next to him and playing very loudly) to "play louder". I scoot my chair closer to him and play the same. He says "aaah, much better".

3. Client says "I want the recording smoother". I send exact same recording back. Client says "That's IT!"

4. Singer says "I need more of me in my monitor". I look at the sound guy who is eating a sandwich and doesn't touch a damn thing. Singer says "Much better".

5. Big Rock band says " The strings are too loud in the mix". Our mics aren't set up yet.

6. COnductor yells at trumpets for playing too loud. There were no trumpets in that particular passage.

 

Let's face it, we all have seen stuff like this. THEREFORE, it's hard to take anything at face value. I told you about an event that happened. you said "and . . . your panel of highly esteemed, unbelievably respected by the music world, musicians have not suffered any hearing loss either!!" You're looking for something, anything. You won't find it, I was highly accurate. You're casting doubt on me. You're making statements about Tannoy monitors that I never said: I didn't infer one way or another that they were good or shiat, I merely stated what were used in the test.

 

Likewise, I'm casting doubt on you. I have to, I've learned time and time again that musicians often use perception rather than reality (I'm not suggesting that you are, I'm making a general observation). They read stuff on the internet that says "lossy blah blah" and suddenly they can "hear" differently because they read something. They can't. I have no doubt that some (very very few) people can hear this and that, If you're one of them than good for you. Most cannot. I stand by that and I will always stand by that. I even offered a challenge. Ultimately, I don't blame you for casting doubt on me, nor should you blame me for casting doubt on you. We're doing what musicians are supposed to do: questioning anything and everything in order to find the real answers.

 

Bottom line: Musicians SHOULDN'T take anything at face value. They SHOULD question everything they read. They should use their ears instead of reading about "lossy" blah blah. The kids recording at 96K with their m-Audio cards and mxl mics might hear this amazing difference in quality compared to 44.1, when in fact it's mostly all in their mind. You're just some guy on the internet, I'm just some guy on the internet. When guys like wdl (again, not you I know) say blanket statements like "BTW, Cygnus, the 'blind' test you did comparing mp3s and wav files must not have been only blind, but deaf. Please, the difference is really dramatic for any good listener or engineer.", I'm going to challenge that EVERY TIME. Everyone should. If they don't, it's terrible musicianship to read something like that and not demand some sort of real-world scenario to back that up. It will make them a better musician to form their own opinions based on their own ears and their own real-world situations, not just having a stranger saying "crap mp3s" and whatnot . Likewise, we all have to ask ourselves "Do these strings/mic/mixer/whatever actually make me sound better, or is it just hype?"

 

Peace.

[CrimsonianKing]

Cygnus64, i understand but stand to my opinion and disagree, there's a huge difference between a 320kpbs mp3 and a losless file, if you can't hear it, fine, nothing to worry about, but i just can, it's not "all in my head", sorry, but i can hear it, and that's that.

 

Actually i just proved my point (at least to myself) once more today (not that i had any doubts), a cd i bought last week, ripped it to 320kpbs so i could have it on the go, listened a few times on my Ipod, a few times on my computer, today i took the time to rip it in a lossless format, it's nothing less than a night and day difference.

 

But i agree with only one thing, most people can't tell the difference (as you proved with your test), they should be ashamed IMO, especially being a musician/engineer for so many years (like the people on your test). But well, just cause you're a good player doesn't mean you have good ears, i guess

[Cygnus64]

Cygnus64, i understand but stand to my opinion and disagree, there's a huge difference between a 320kpbs mp3 and a losless file, if you can't hear it, fine, nothing to worry about, but i just can, it's not "all in my head", sorry, but i can hear it, and that's that.

 

OK. Care to prove it so that we can understand??

 

I have perfect pitch. I've proven it 1,000 times. I take no offense at being asked, it's just something that happens. People say "what's this note", I tell them, life goes on. Can you do the same?

 

they should be ashamed IMO, especially being a musician/engineer

That's f*cking ridiculous. Really. That's stupid. But hey, you wanna tell people that could kick your musical ass that "they should be ashamed", then I'm assuming that you have no problem whatsoever in taking my test and of course nailing it since there's such a huge difference.

 

Let me know when you're ready.

 

[CrimsonianKing]

Cygnus64, i understand but stand to my opinion and disagree, there's a huge difference between a 320kpbs mp3 and a losless file, if you can't hear it, fine, nothing to worry about, but i just can, it's not "all in my head", sorry, but i can hear it, and that's that.

 

OK. Care to prove it so that we can understand??

 

I have perfect pitch. I've proven it 1,000 times. I take no offense at being asked, it's just something that happens. People say "what's this note", I tell them, life goes on. Can you do the same?

 

they should be ashamed IMO, especially being a musician/engineer

That's f*cking ridiculous. Really. That's stupid. But hey, you wanna tell people that could kick your musical ass that "they should be ashamed", then I'm assuming that you have no problem whatsoever in taking my test and of course nailing it since there's such a huge difference.

 

Let me know when you're ready.

 

Yeah, you're taking everything too personal. Good luck with your offenses, but it's not gonna work with me, i won't go down that road, thanks. And no, i don't need to prove you anything, i'm not the egocentric one here. This was supposed to be a friendly discussion, you took it personally and started offending everyone who disagreed with you, think about that. People that can kick my musical ass? you sure you're 40 years old? i'd say 17.

[Cygnus64]

Yeah, you're taking everything too personal. Good luck with your offenses, but it's not gonna work with me, i won't go down that road, thanks. And no, i don't need to prove you anything, i'm not the egocentric one here. This was supposed to be a friendly discussion, you took it personally and started offending everyone who disagreed with you, think about that. People that can kick my musical ass? you sure you're 40 years old? i'd say 17.

Yup, a wanker who's all words and no substance. As I said, the smallest dogs have the biggest bark. Pathetic, and cowardly as well.

 

they should be ashamed IMO, especially being a musician/engineer for so many years (like the people on your test).

Yup, the shame. I'm sure I'll feel ashamed the next time I'm playing an arena show for union dough and you're turned down for that Kiwanas pancake breakfast that pays 12 dollars. Likewise, I'm sure my "test friends" will feel immense shame when they are at Carnegie Hall or the Berlin Philharmonie or in Luzerne whilst pulling down 200K a year, while you're telling them "they should be ashamed" from your bedroom setup. Oh, the shame they must feel.

 

Pathetic, dude. Pathetic. But hey, you know best even though you won't put your money where your mouth is and you use some bullshit to deflect the fact that you're far too chickenshit to prove yourself. As I figured.

[CrimsonianKing]

[Meisenhower]

Ah, well, it was probably a good call deleting that post Meisenhower. I was just going to say, I wouldn't mind have some parts of your life. Just not the Detroit part . . ..

 

Go Tigers!!!

 

edit: by the way, if you can afford a ferrari, then you can afford to upgrade from an NE2. That really should go without saying. But I'm just sayin'.

 

I know Adan, it's not a matter of not affording to upgrade, it's just I'm not too crazy about my upgrade choices.

 

I don't like what Nord did to the NE3 interface and really didn't like using it when I played it for an entire evening. I guess I could get over that in time, but . .

 

I didn't love the SK1 "other voices" enough to pull the trigger, but that might change as their library grows.

 

When I play with the funk/soul band, the NE2/Vent still suits me just fine.

 

I still have the XK system for when organ really counts.

 

If you really want to give me crap for anything, it should be for tooling around Sausalito, the City and Palo Alto in a 13 year old Ferrari. At least the GF likes it!

 

Oh, don't feel "too bad" about the Detroit part. I get to do a service for my aging family members while I'm here and I really contribute to the local economy!! Detroit does have its upside, and gives me good street cred when I'm in the Mission!

 

GO TIGERS!!

 

Yeah, as far as deleting the post . . . the "adult sensibility" came to my rescue after 3 minutes, but DAMN you guys were just too quick for me to get out of it clean!!

[WWW]

Wow. This got out of hand. First, I'm sorry my tone was edgy. Mea culpable, really! I just don't like how consumerism and the desire for immediate gratification has reduced the quality of the the music we listen to. Mp3's simply cost nothing to sell over the internet. Hard copy lossless audio has a lower profit margin. But, I admit that I use mp3s all the time for ease, convenience, and non critical listening applications, like learning a part. I think we all agree that high fidelity does indeed sound better. But that is not to say a person cannot choose to listen to compressed audio. it is worrisome, however, that soon there will be an entire generation which never even got a chance to listen to high fidelity.

[MAJUSCULE]

http://elusiveapps.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/stay_classy1.gif

 

It's Friday. I'm off work. Put your feet up and grab a beverage of choice, won't you?

 

As for me, I'm 18. I don't have the money for an incredible sound system. I use my iPod/mp3s about 75% of the time, CDs the other 25%. It is a matter of convenience. When I really want to listen, I put headphones on. That's why I asked you guys for advice recently. Every now and then, I realise how much I'm missing on my laptop and I hate it. Then I go on. My parents stereo is decent, Denon stuff. When I want to groove, I put some tunes on and groove. When I want to listen to every detail, I sit down and put the phones on.

 

PS: I was going to respond to all sorts of stuff from the first two pages of discussion, then I had to resort to posting that first picture instead. Love you guys, but...

[SVG]

 

Word...

 

Stephen

 

 

 

 

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[Dglavko]

43 y.o. vinyl & big stereo lover here - I love listening to music that way, and it sounds remarkably better than the others, although admittedly convenience often dictates listening by other formats (internet streaming, ipod, CD's etc.)