What are your opinions on Hanon?

[Sven Golly]

I read that Coltrane did Hanon on sax back in the day.

 

No, you misread. John Coltrane did heroin back in the day.

 

Now, because one guy does it doesn't mean we all should, but he was a beast, to say the least.

 

This advice still applies, though.

[GovernorSilver]

I read that Coltrane did Hanon on sax back in the day. Now, because one guy does it doesn't mean we all should, but he was a beast, to say the least.

 

I too had read that Coltrane included Hanon and Czerny from the piano world in his saxophone practice routine. However, the Hanon stuff appears to be designed to address issues particular to piano playing - particularly the ability to play any note with the ring or pinky fingers just as loud as with the others. This issue doesn't really apply to sax.

 

I understand there are classical etudes for sax. Who knows how much of his practice time he devoted to them vs. Hanon/Czerny? Trane was known for collecting exercises to practice, that were written for all kinds of instruments.

[kad]

I read that Coltrane did Hanon on sax back in the day.

 

No, you misread. John Coltrane did heroin back in the day.

 

 

Actually, Coltrane was obsessed with Slonimsky's "Thesaurus", although one might argue that the distinction is negligible.

[Mike Davis]

Hooked on Hanon.

[marino]

Do you do Czerny with your students? If so, which?

Sure, quite a few. Czerny mainly wrote etudes (actual music pieces, with a technical goal) as opposed to exercises, but his etudes are so schematic that they're quite efficient toward their goal. Also, they're usually as boring as Hanon to play.

 

For the beginner, there's a ton of collections of easy Czerny pieces. As soon as the student comes to a more serious level, I'd recommend a choice from the following books, in order of difficulty:

- op.636, 24 etudes of small velocity

- op.299, school of velocity

- op.740, the art of finger dexterity

The latter one is usually done at the same time with a few Cramer etudes. After that, there's Clementi's Gradus ad Parnassum to keep the pianist busy!

 

(I tend to not count the Chopin Etudes among the 'regular' etudes... as they're also fantastic pieces of music!)

 

Warning: I'm NOT an advocate of spending/wasting our time on technique. These books are huge; probably, a choice of three or four etudes from every book, in relation to the individual pianist's weaknesses, is enough for an entire life. I know it was for me: There's too much *real* music to learn out there.

That said, in my music bookshelves I also keep copies of absurd things like Czerny's "School of left hand" and "School of virtuoso", just out of curiosity. Franlky, I have never completed one single etude from those books... it would have taken extra years, which I don't have.

 

 

[MikeT156]

Marino:

 

I'd say you keep things in proper perspective. Hanon Studies, the first twenty exercises are really all we need of Hanon for warm up. Scales in parallel and contrary motions, arps for stretching, can usually be wrapped up in a half an hour or so and then....on to playing music. I know you are an advanced musician/teacher so I certainly read and try to listen to what you say "most" of the time. My piano teacher gave me far too many exercises and drills in the beginning and I understand why he did it now, but it was boring as hell back then. The reason we "practice" and play "exercises" is so we can play music.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Mike T.

[marino]

Hanon Studies, the first twenty exercises are really all we need of Hanon for warm up. Scales in parallel and contrary motions, arps for stretching, can usually be wrapped up in a half an hour or so and then....on to playing music.

 

The reason we "practice" and play "exercises" is so we can play music.

 

Absolutely!!

 

 

[Tuggy]

I'm doing hanon mostly for warming up, and mostly on Db, E, Gb, Ab and B, because these are the keys i feel uncomfortable with. Lately, I'm working on Pischna, and I feel that I've gained more control on my 4th and 5th fingers. The most appealing thing for me in this topic is to build chops on classical pieces, since i play mostly jazz and blues, i didn't have time to play classical till now. So I'm gonna start with those Bach Inventions, let's see what happens

[GovernorSilver]

I'm still wondering if I really need 17 more Hanon exercises when I've got 3 to work with already, but if you guys keep saying so...

[kanker.]

I'm still wondering if I really need 17 more Hanon exercises when I've got 3 to work with already, but if you guys keep saying so...

It may not be that you need all of them, but you may find that there are 3 or 4 others in particular that address problem areas in your playing.

[Cygnus64]

Marino:

 

I'd say you keep things in proper perspective. Hanon Studies, the first twenty exercises are really all we need of Hanon for warm up. Scales in parallel and contrary motions, arps for stretching, can usually be wrapped up in a half an hour or so and then....on to playing music. I know you are an advanced musician/teacher so I certainly read and try to listen to what you say "most" of the time. My piano teacher gave me far too many exercises and drills in the beginning and I understand why he did it now, but it was boring as hell back then. The reason we "practice" and play "exercises" is so we can play music.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Mike T.

 

On any instrument or other aspect of music, at some point a zenlike thang comes into play. Yes it's about the music, but it's also about discipline. There's a challenge to see beyond the boredom.

 

Etudes and studies are life lessons. Somewhere, there is a 7 year old locked in a room blowing through all of these for hours, while you (and me too) are crying about 20 minutes. It's about the challenge, and countering that with reason and sanity.

[bluzeyone]

If Hanon is not benificial, what do you recommend? I currenly do scales and modes with both hands.

[MikeT156]

Cygnus64:

 

On any instrument or other aspect of music, at some point a zenlike thang comes into play. Yes it's about the music, but it's also about discipline. There's a challenge to see beyond the boredom.

 

Etudes and studies are life lessons. Somewhere, there is a 7 year old locked in a room blowing through all of these for hours, while you (and me too) are crying about 20 minutes. It's about the challenge, and countering that with reason and sanity.

 

Zen aside for a moment, sure, playing finger exercises is boring. But I have to ask..what is the goal of playing finger exercises? To learn how to play finger exercises or to learn how to play MUSIC? There is a point of no return on playing exercises. We have to make the best use of our time. Use finger exercises to warm up, to aid in building muscle tone and playing evenly with both hands. There are also method books to help improve finger independence like Bella Bartok Piano Solo, theres Czerny, and some great pieces by Bach that all are beneficial. I doubt that parents of any aspiring musician wants their child to sit down and show the relatives how well he/she can play Hanon studies when they visit over the holidays. Its about music.

 

 

Mike T.

 

[cyborg]

Zen aside for a moment, sure, playing finger exercises is boring. But I have to ask..what is the goal of playing finger exercises? To learn how to play finger exercises or to learn how to play MUSIC? There is a point of no return on playing exercises. We have to make the best use of our time. Use finger exercises to warm up, to aid in building muscle tone and playing evenly with both hands. There are also method books to help improve finger independence like Bella Bartok Piano Solo, theres Czerny, and some great pieces by Bach that all are beneficial. I doubt that parents of any aspiring musician wants their child to sit down and show the relatives how well he/she can play Hanon studies when they visit over the holidays. Its about music.

 

Mike T.

 

+1000

 

There is a point of no return on playing exercises. We have to make the best use of our time.

 

exactly right, I couldn't say it better.

[bluzeyone]

Usually I pick a mode and do patterns of equal invervals in it. I find some intresting sounds over the root doing so. That helps the boredom factor quite a bit. Even doing that, it doesn't take long to stray of the path, leave the classroom, and start groovin! Man, if that ethereal teacher ever gets a hold o me, I'm goin to have detentions comin outta me arss!!

[Cygnus64]

There are also method books to help improve finger independence like Bella Bartok Piano Solo, theres Czerny, and some great pieces by Bach that all are beneficial.

 

 

 

I'm a violinist first and foremost (although I play keyboards a LOT these days, and yes I do Hanon). Every time I pick up the fiddle, I do some Bach. Every. Time. He only wrote 6 pieces (Sonatas) for violin solo. I've been playing them for 38 years. Come to think of it, every time I play the piano or a keyboard, I play a Bach invention.

 

That's ONE aspect of a practice and music regimen, just one. It's a very important one too, ya gotta have it. But one has to have other stuff too. Bach is the Mashed Potatoes with gravy, Hanon is the green beans.

 

I view "Hanon" as a word like Xerox: it is a stock word for etudes or studies. It doesn't have to be that particular set of exercises. The point is that you need etudes, scales and the other building blocks for music. There is a reason they exist, and have existed for all these years.

 

Dont ask me. Ask the classical badasses of piano what they did. I know what they did because I know em, they did boatloads of Etudes. There's a reason why, honestly. They don't do it "just because", nor do they do it because it's a tradition, or any other reason. They do it because they know the importance.

 

what is the goal of playing finger exercises? To learn how to play finger exercises or to learn how to play MUSIC?

 

Newsflash: they are music. Music= scales and arpeggios, that's what music is. Etudes- scales and arppeggios. You can musically play a scale, really. Honest to goodness: if two players play a scale, a simple scale, you could probably pick the better player based on that.

 

I doubt that parents of any aspiring musician wants their child to sit down and show the relatives how well he/she can play Hanon studies when they visit over the holidays.

 

Maybe they should teach the kid some magic tricks instead. The goal of music lessons is not to impress Aunt Jenny at Thanksgiving dinner. If you have a 4 year old and want them to start swimming lessons, you could start by putting them on the high dive at the pool. That might not work out too good, but Aunt Jenny would be very impressed dag nabit.

[Legatoboy]

Your probably better off working through a Back Invention or Prelude & Fugue. That's what was suggested to me. It's just a more musically pragmatic way to get your hands moving and limber plus as a side kick you get Bach and all that beauty rather than the rigidity of Hannon. It took me a while to understand this because I did a lot of Hannon at one time, it was in my practice regime every day. I have been taught to come up with my own exercises or have worked on equally interesting things with my teacher that are more in the line of The Microcomos of Bartok. Which I did a few of, I believe there are 8 Microcosmos books.

More like this:

Musical and pianistic ideas- like open minor 7th cords played in thirds with two hands in cycle of 4ths and chromatic. Stuff to get you moving into new ground and territory with a different perspective, ear and mechanical approach. When I started doing that it made Hannon seem limited to some degree. I was thinking of doing some Hannon the other night though because I had laid off for a long time past two weeks with personal stuff and family weddings and travel! So! I'd at least take a look at the Microcosms of Bartok's.... I haven't myself recently but it would be another option to Hannon! It's a bit more work!

[MikeT156]

Yeah Cygnus64, I get your drift. Is it absolutely positively necessary for any aspiring pianist to practice Hanon Studies? Short answer NO. It is just another method or study as you say. I'm just saying its a good one to do. I practice Hanon, as you do.

 

Lets see.....music. What is more melodic, more emotional, and more inspiring to play for ANYONE.....Hanon, Scales, or a musical composition? Pick one. I'd say you are getting into semantics, or maybe just trying to yank my chain. Well, it won't be the first time.

 

by Legatoboy:

 

Your probably better off working through a Back Invention or Prelude & Fugue.

 

Musically, sure. But a beginner might have a more difficult time reading that than Hanon Studies. To me, Hanon is for building muscle tone, strength, and improving the ability to play evenly with both hands. Bach inventions and Fugues are more advanced and are excellent for other reasons. Definitely more musical and satisfying. Different animals than Hanon.

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Mike T.

[Mike Davis]

 

The goal of music lessons is not to impress Aunt Jenny at Thanksgiving dinner.

 

Of course not. The goal of music lessons is to get laid eventually.

 

 

[Cygnus64]

Lets see.....music. What is more melodic, more emotional, and more inspiring to play for ANYONE.....Hanon, Scales, or a musical composition? Pick one.

 

 

Why? Why would you have to pick one?

 

What is ... more inspiring to play for ANYONE

Herein lies the problem. You're making assumptions based on your personal preferences. I can get plenty inspired by etudes. So can lots and lots of other players. Walk down the halls of a music conservatory and you'll see. I get very inspired by scales, they improve my technique more than any masterpiece probably can. It's not all steak, one needs their green beans too.

[cyborg]

 

The goal of music lessons is not to impress Aunt Jenny at Thanksgiving dinner.

 

Of course not. The goal of music lessons is to get laid eventually.

 

 

with Aunt Jenny?

[cyborg]

Your probably better off working through a Back Invention or Prelude & Fugue. That's what was suggested to me. It's just a more musically pragmatic way to get your hands moving and limber plus as a side kick you get Bach and all that beauty rather than the rigidity of Hannon.

 

exactly, even Keith Jarrett was "practicing" playing Bach preludes etc...

 

[video:youtube]pxNLXSOi82k

[Joe Muscara]

If you can't make anything you play musical, maybe you should be in a different business.

 

If you can't spell the name of something that is in big CAPITAL LETTERS on the front of the book (as well as in the title of the thread), well, I can't help you.

[jarrell]

Let's look at this from another angle... I wonder what percentage of classical pianists good enough to make a living by recording and concertizing did little or no technical exercises - no Hanon, Czerny, etc. and only played pieces that were not considered technical exercises?

[MikeT156]

Quote by Cygnus64:

 

Why? Why would you have to pick one?

 

Well, because I said so. Thats what my piano teacher use to tell me.

 

Seriously, I really dont get a rise out of playing Hanon and scales. I play them because it improves my playing, I know it, so I do it. I dont care for cleaning my house either, I do it because I have too. I dont want my house to look like a shit house, and I dont want to live in a shit house anyway.

 

Etudes are more musical, at least to me. So the answers obvious, at least to me. I think we are picking fleas off the camels back and examining each specimen for consistency. They're all fleas to me.

 

 

Mike T.

 

[cyborg]

 

Etudes are more musical, at least to me.

Mike T.

 

well, to anybody who is real musician.

 

My last word on the subject: We don't practice to play - we play to practice. The concept is actually called kung fu, and it's valid in every aspect of life. In martial art world a good example would be sweeping the house with the broom. I'm cleaning the house but still practicing the art of fighting. I wish I understood this earlier.

 

p.s.

it's sad that most teachers got that wrong...

[Cygnus64]

well, to anybody who is real musician.

 

I'm a real musician. I coulda kicked your ass musically when I was 7 years old. In closing, let's review:

 

Cygnus- real musician

 

Cyborg- obnoxious, ignorant troll.

 

Do ya see the difference between the two?

[zephonic]

The concept is actually called kung fu, and it's valid in every aspect of life. In martial art world a good example would be sweeping the house with the broom. I'm cleaning the house but still practicing the art of fighting.

 

This gives me the impression that your understanding of kung-fu and martial arts is based on and limited to fragments from "The Karate Kid'. Trust me, there's more to it. and there's more to music education, too.

 

[Joe Muscara]

Cygnus- real musician

 

Cyborg- obnoxious, ignorant troll.

Hmmm. Six letters each, both start with the unusual "cy" combination Is he your alter ego?

[Cygnus64]

Cygnus- real musician

 

Cyborg- obnoxious, ignorant troll.

Hmmm. Six letters each, both start with the unusual "cy" combination Is he your alter ego?

If he were my alter ego, he would be Cyborg46.