What scale to use?

[LilyM]

I've been trying to stretch out a bit and have been working on this song "Joseito" by Pancho Sanchez with Joey DeFrancesca. It is basic blues changes in C but when it goes to the V, it goes first to a Ab7 for two bars and then to the G.

 

I am not really able to figure out what DeFrancesca plays over that Ab when soloing and was hoping to learn what some appropriate scales to play for that would be.

 

Thanks for your help.

[frogmonkey]

Ab Lydian-Dominant Ab Bb C D Eb F Gb

 

or the C blues scale

[Dave Ferris]

I would just play melodically and lyrically.

 

No need for scales or anything resembling theory or harmony.

 

In fact the less you know the better you'll sound.

[LilyM]

Dave and Andric,

 

Thanks a lot for your help, that really helps. I've got some work to do ;-) One clarification though... I guess Ab Lydian-Dominant and Eb Melodic Minor are basically the same thing, but I understand that with the Meloic Minor you would flat the 7th an 6th when descending. Is that the way I should approach that if I am thinking of it as a Eb Melodic Minor Ab to Ab? Or should I really think of it more as just the ascending notes?

 

[Moonglow]

http://mysite.ncnetwork.net/resvht4v/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/weightscale.jpg

[jarrell]

... for jazz, use just the ascending notes of the melodic minor scale. You can think of Ab Lydian-Dominant as the 4th mode of Eb Melodic Minor.

[marino]

Dave and Andric,

 

Thanks a lot for your help, that really helps. I've got some work to do ;-) One clarification though... I guess Ab Lydian-Dominant and Eb Melodic Minor are basically the same thing, but I understand that with the Meloic Minor you would flat the 7th an 6th when descending. Is that the way I should approach that if I am thinking of it as a Eb Melodic Minor Ab to Ab? Or should I really think of it more as just the ascending notes?

 

In practical jazzspeak, when referring to the melodic minor scale, we mean the ascending version.

 

In fact, the whole story of making it like the natural minor when descending is bullshit... but that's another whole story.

 

 

[Jazz+]

That was a really good and thorough answer from Dave Ferris.

 

[GDP]

Here is my advise...many will likely think i am a nut but it works for me.

 

First Listen! Listen! Listen! Hear first what you are striving for. Once achieved, say a country sound, or a prog rock or blues sound...it really doesn't matter....then analyze that sound theoretically. Categorize it in your mind theoretically so you can retrieve it in any key at any time.

 

Remember ...it is your ear that leads you.

 

Just a thought.

[The Real MC]

http://mysite.ncnetwork.net/resvht4v/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/weightscale.jpg

 

It's even complete with a circle of fifths dial

[Dave Ferris]

Uhh...more melody--think "wind beneath my wings". Oh and don't forget more funny pictures.

 

 

 

 

[InWalkedBud]

That was a really good and thorough answer from Dave Ferris.

+1. yes, yes it was. thanks dave! the only thing i'd add is that it's not always necessary to think of the Ab as a distinct mode. you can sometimes think of it more as a chromatic approach to G (and change the chord in your LH chord or bass) without changing what you're doing in your solo. same as you momentarily might shift the LH voicing up a half step during a blues to add color, without doing anything different in the RH. people are already basically saying this bringing up the blues scale, just wanted to be more explicit. there are cool scales you can use over the Ab and you should take advantage of them. but it takes some stress off to know that you don't necessarily have to treat the Ab as completely distinct from the G. sometimes it sounds great to keep your RH mode constant and let that half-step difference do its thing!

[Dave Ferris]

Just wish for it to happen, keep at it....maybe in 30 years it will.

 

 

[The Real MC]

(yawn) Some people get so infatuated by scales that they forgot how to compose melodies or lyrical phrases.

[Dave Ferris]

(yawn) Some people get so infatuated by scales that they forgot how to compose melodies or lyrical phrases.

 

(yawn) Yeah, I've never played anything melodic or lyrical in my life.

[kanker.]

(yawn) Some people get so infatuated by scales that they forgot how to compose melodies or lyrical phrases.

 

Yeah, I've never played anything melodic or lyrical in my life.

Yeah, here's the thing. There are all sorts of theories of harmony - music theory is based around it. There is NO theory of melody. There is only application of knowledge, and generally that knowledge is derived from scales. I'll take that infatuation any day of the week over a dismissal of its importance, power, and authority.

[David Loving]

There is zero downside to practicing scales, IMO.

[GovernorSilver]

There's a super long thread going on in one of the knuckledragger... I mean guitarist forums about whether scales are useless. Ironically enough, someone posted this Bill Evans vid which I think was posted here before:

 

[video:youtube]

[GovernorSilver]

There is zero downside to practicing scales, IMO.

 

I guess it would depend on how your practice them. If I practice, say, C major as CDEFGABC up, and CBAGFEDC down and nothing else, what does it really buy me? But if I practice it in broken 6ths up and down, I might actually get somewhere, especially if I also practice other intervals (7ths, 3rds, etc.)

 

I tried practicing Hanon scale exercises. Didn't do anything as much for my C major scale fingering as Bach Invention No. 1 in C Major.

 

That's the problem with these debates about scales (not picking on anyone in particular). People rarely talk about how they actually practice them.

[The Real MC]

There is zero downside to practicing scales, IMO.

 

Agree.

 

I practice many scales and they develop my technique.

 

But they do not develop feeling and improvisation.

 

When I play I focus on what comes out of my soul. I am not conscious about scales or analyzing on the fly.

 

The trick with scales and all is to let them build into your subconsciousness, and then all that practice will manifest itself along with your feeling and improvisation. I had to learn to do that when my teacher had me practicing all those scales.

[jarrell]

Practicing scales is one thing, but practicing applying scale theory to changes is another. Solos don't consist of running scales or modes, they are more like the pool of available notes from which to construct melodic ideas. In other words, the idea is not to play the notes of a scale or mode in order, but to create motifs based on that scale or mode (of course, you sometimes want to use chromaticism outside of the note pool to create the shape for your motifs). When playing jazz, there are often different scales or modes for each chord change, so first you need the facility to rapidly change your pool of available notes, while still maintaining a musical melodic line. To do that, you need a good knowledge of scale theory, in other words, which scales or modes will work with each chord.

 

All of that knowledge only comes from practicing, not just scales, but applying scales as you solo according to the chords of the song. Like any skill, you have to learn it so well that you no longer consciously think about it, so that when you improvise you are more like a listener, IMO.

[ewall08530]

+1 for jarrel's answer. And many great responses as usual to the original question.

 

I'm far from a fluent jazz player. Having said that....

 

You may or may not know the reason why the Ab7 works so well here.

I've not seen anyone mention that its a tri-tone substitution. In other words its taking the place of the II (D7) chord in this progression. The 3rd and the 7th of the D7 chord become the 7th and 3rd of the Ab7. Just good to know. And part of the reason why playing a C blues scale over what seems like an "off the wall change" works and is pretty common.

 

While remembering not to run these as scales but "create motifs based on that scale"...

 

F blues scale (It works the same way an A blues scale works with a C7. It's a blues scale built on the 6th degree of the chord your playing)

 

Db major scale (It's got all the notes in your Ab7 chord plus passing tones the F and Db)

 

Try some of those and see what you think.

 

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