Yamaha CP1 first impressions

[allan_evett]

I will do that, Allan, probably in a new thread. I should receive it and hope to have it all installed and tested before the week's out. I may put a sample in the reharm thread too.

 

Now, back to the Yamaha CP's.

 

 

Thanks, SK. I tried to start a new thread, referring to your comment in the process, and still ended up in this thread - with a different 'headline' at the top of my post. Looks like I techno-goofed somewhere. If you start the new thread after checking out the EW QL pianos, I'll be glad to jump in again with my questions. Back to the CP's indeed...

[Moon Zero Two]

Mod wheel...opps

[Melodialworks]

Played the CP1 again on my way out from the last day at NAMM.

 

It still sounded good but was a little less "wowed" on a second playing.

 

I always feel that the all-important second impression is the one that you need to trust.

 

On faster note single lines there is somewhat of a irritating decay to some notes around and above High C. It feels more even for lines in the middle of the keyboard. I'm always a little hesitant to try and put into words what I'm hearing but I didn't dig it.

 

This concerns me. I've read elsewhere about concerns with the decay.

 

I thought I could live with the hollow / synthetic mids of the V-Piano, and guess what? I can't, at least happily. (A shame really, since the board is so good in so many other aspects). It would be really lame to move to the CP1, and end up ultra focusing on this decay issue, and not being able to get past it. Since you noticed it at NAMM (and the other poster noticed it in a very noisy environment, as well) then it must be, well, noticeable. In a studio, playing solo piano, melody lines etc. it would be all the more so.

 

I hope to play the CP1 within a few weeks, but this issue has me concerned. (Especially when all of the other feedback is to my liking).

 

 

 

 

 

[Athan Billias]

They won't tell us so we end up speculating. That was a very confusing issue, even Yamaha's people couldn't communicate it very clearly.

 

Sorry, thought the post last week was pretty clear , but it WAS 6 am on the second day of NAMM

 

Spectral Component Modeling - Spectral Components Modeling is somewhat of a play on words. If you look at the diagrams in the CP Series brochure, you can see the different component blocks - The piano type, the preamp type , the VCM modulation effect, the power amp compressor block and reverb block. So one meaning of the Component Modeling is that we modeled different components of the signal chain.

 

At Yamaha when we use the term modeling we mean an actual mathematical model of a process or instrument. The VL1, VL70M and Virtual Circuit Modeling are all examples of Yamaha modeling and actually the same engineer who developed those models developed the CP series modeling. So the VCM effects, Preamps, Power Amp. Compressors, and speaker simulation are all models.

 

 

The CP1 has three different Piano Types (Acoustic, Electric and Synthesizer) each with a different core tone generation system. We selected the technologies that we felt were the best sounding available for that sound.

 

Acoustic Piano Type -Samples with some components of the piano itself modeled like hammer stiffness and sound board resonance and also a modeled mic preamp.

 

Electric Piano Type - This is the other part of the meaning of Spectral Component Modeling. We use spectral components of the sound for the electric piano models. Rather than multi-velocity layers of samples, SCM for the electric piano uses granular spectral parametric data so every nuance of the players touch is translated into expressive tone. There is nothing that is at all like what is normal referred to as a sample in the core ounds of the electric pianos. We did record many different vintage EPs to get information for the models , but there are no split points ot velocity switches or anything that is a " waveform".

 

However we do have multiple technologies available in the CP1. So for example some one commented that they did not think the electric pianos had note offs- actually they do. We didn't model the note offs as they do not have different characterisitics based on how hard you play. We just used sampled note offs.

 

Synthesizer Piano Type - In the CP1, it is real FM. Period. There are 4 of the most popular DX7 EP algorithms. On the VCM effects block there is a model of the TX816 chorus. There is a separate DSP chip to do the calculations necessary for FM.

 

Yamaha (and other companies) have done products with multiple synthesis methods before.

 

The CP5 does not have the mic preamp Models ( which accounts for the difference in the number of acoustic pianos listed in the brochure- there are 2 band mic preamps and a 3 band mic preamps in the CP1 and these are listed as different acoustic piano types) , the extra DSP for FM and of course the design elements and price are different.

 

The CP50 has one acoustic piano the CFIII and one tine model, the 75 and both reed models ( 69 and the 77). n

 

You can gleen all this information from either the CP Series catalog or the Illustrated Guide. They are available here. CP1 Resources Page

 

Anyway, we just try to provide the information we have in as clear a way as possible and stay away from opinions or value judgements.

 

It will be up to you to play the new CP Series and make up your own mind about it.

 

Hope that helps !

 

 

 

[Melodialworks]

Acoustic Piano Type -Samples with some components of the piano itself modeled like hammer stiffness and sound board resonance and also a modeled mic preamp.

 

Thanks, Athan. Great to have you posting here. Can you clarify how many velocity levels (samples) are used in the Acoustic Pianos?

 

Thanks.

[Dave Bryce]

That's very clear. Thanks for taking the time, Athan!

 

dB

[Mogut]

Thanks Athan.

 

I read early-on, from a japenese site, that there are only going to be 200 CP1s produced the first year. Is there any truth to that? I hope not, cause then we probably wont see them in showrooms for a while

 

[burningbusch]

Athan, do you have any idea as to the Rhodes model heard on the second half of the CP Series video at http://www.yamahasynth.com (about 2:20 into it)? If it's the 75, the CP-50 is going to be hot.

 

Also, thanks for the detail above. It really helps.

 

Busch.

[Dave Bryce]

I've had to do some editing to the thread...and for those of you who are new to the forum, I really don't like having to be the police at all.

 

It seems to me as if there may be some issues from another forum that are spilling over into this thread. We'd kind of prefer if things could be kept on topic, and aren't real big on ad hominem attacks here.

 

Please...keep it civil.

 

Thanks!

 

dB

[Skytouch]

Nicky, I was pretty frustrated with my S90 as a piano controller before I discovered the release delay trick in MidiPipe. Nico got a donation from me for that one. :-) You might want to try that (+20ms release delay) and see what it does for the Fazioli.

 

Regards,

Sky

 

[Dave Ferris]

Hobbyist Dewster-

 

I indeed do have yet a third opinion of the CP-1.......EVERY DP I'VE EVER HAD THE MISFORTUNE IN LIFE OF LAYING MY HANDS ON IS A TOY.....THESE LATEST OFFERINGS ARE NO EXCEPTION!

 

Does that adequately convey enough technical information for you?

 

If you have something to say to me, say it to my face instead of running back to your little support group over at pianohacks, I mean pianoworld.com.

 

 

[eric]

It is embarrassing (to them) that people come along from another forum to lift and mock comments from LEGIT forum members here on their little pet forum off to the side. Interlopers!!! Come to NAMM next time and form your own opinions rather than trying to pull a fast one with cut and paste from people that know more and can play circles around you.

[drpopper]

Hobbyist Dewster-

 

I indeed do have yet a third opinion of the CP-1.......EVERY DP I'VE EVER HAD THE MISFORTUNE IN LIFE OF LAYING MY HANDS ON IS A TOY.....THESE LATEST OFFERINGS ARE NO EXCEPTION!

 

Does that adequately convey enough technical information for you?

 

If you have something to say to me, say it to my face instead of running back to your little support group over at pianohacks, I mean pianoworld.com.

 

 

Relax the Dewster's crazy search isn't meant to drive YOU crazy !

We are all used to him .. he's like a new puppy fine as long as you put down newspaper ....

 

And not many at pianoworld are hacks ....you can tar everyone with the same brush.

 

[Athan Billias]

"Athan, do you have any idea as to the Rhodes model heard on the second half of the CP Series video at http://www.yamahasynth.com (about 2:20 into it)? If it's the 75, the CP-50 is going to be hot."

 

That is indeed the 75 model in a demo played by Yamaha US product specialist Blake Angelos. The 75 model was selected for the CP50 because it was the most flexible of all the models. With the insert effects from the Motif XS and by changing the pick up and hammer hardness you can get a very wide variety of sounds.

 

As far as when you will see the CP1 in stores, we are shipping now and are making plans for clinics around the country starting very soon.

 

[Athan Billias]

We are still going through the rather lengthy thread here and answering questions that came up.

 

 

(1) Would you say that the DX7 sounds in the CP1 are better, same or worse compared to old DX7 hardware (e.g. TX802 or F1SR)? Theoretically they should be about equal quality, but with higher polyphony?

 

 

The biggest difference between the CP1 and a DX7 is not in the digital domain, but rather in the quality of the D/A (digital to analog) convertors. The FM algorithms are the same as in the DX, but it sounds more like an FS1r in the output because D/A technology has come along way in the last 20 years. To be clear, there is no FM programming available. It is just 4 EP algorithms with some simple parameters like attack and release

 

(2) Judging by other people's first impressions it seems that the CP1 sounds are really good. But *WHY* the heck did you not add some nice background layer sounds like strings etc? I might have bought a CP1, but now I guess I'll have to get a CP5 instead, cause the CP1 is not feature complete (for my needs)...

 

It is definitely not typical that the flagship has less features than the other products in the line. But then again a samurai sword doesn't have a bottle opener on it.

 

For a majority of people, the CP5 is going to have the best feature set for their needs and budget. Again if you read the threads here people have confirmed that the keyboard action and core sounds are the same between the CP1 and CP5. The CP1 is a design statement and you probably have to see it in person to really appreciate it.

[snazzyplayer]

I'm wondering what the organ patches are like on the CP-5...are they much like the ones in the CP-300?

 

Is there a new effects processor (rotary) on the organ patches?

 

I'm more interested in the CP-5 for the same reasons as the poster above...it has more sounds, especially strings and organ patches.

 

Snazzy

[Moon Zero Two]

CP1R? or a CP5R? would be nice...just saying...

 

 

[David Loving]

Thanks for the rhodes, c50 information. That makes the c50 a keeper here. Now just the waiting...

[Mogut]

The CP1 is a design statement and you probably have to see it in person to really appreciate it.

 

I think I smell what you guys are cooking.

 

As a flagship model of the series, it does not encompass ALL features that the lower models include, but as a design statement this luxury board includes premium features only as well as being cosmetically favorable over the lower series models.

[Tonysounds]

If you want an FM synth, get an FM synth, preferably the NI FM8.

 

[davinwv]

Am I the only guy experiencing this? I'd hate to be the odd man out.

nope, I have the same issue with the Fazioli....never feels quite right with my S90.

 

I've played the Italian Grand from both a RD-700SX and a Numa Nero. I just can't get past the metallic attacks and artifects in the middle register. I like Garritan Steinway much better.

[kanker.]

How about mono compatibility? Do the sounds suffer from phase cancellation issues when the CP1 or CP5 are used in mono?

[madshi]

The biggest difference between the CP1 and a DX7 is not in the digital domain, but rather in the quality of the D/A (digital to analog) convertors. The FM algorithms are the same as in the DX, but it sounds more like an FS1r in the output because D/A technology has come along way in the last 20 years. To be clear, there is no FM programming available. It is just 4 EP algorithms with some simple parameters like attack and release

Thank you, that clears things up nicely.

 

It is definitely not typical that the flagship has less features than the other products in the line. But then again a samurai sword doesn't have a bottle opener on it.

 

For a majority of people, the CP5 is going to have the best feature set for their needs and budget. Again if you read the threads here people have confirmed that the keyboard action and core sounds are the same between the CP1 and CP5. The CP1 is a design statement and you probably have to see it in person to really appreciate it.

The problem for me is that I want the FM DX7 sounds. But I also want strings sounds for background layers. So neither the CP1 nor the CP5 do all that I want. Which means that I have to get one of these and add an ugly external MIDI module on top of that, which is not good for usability, doesn't look good in my living room and makes connections quite difficult (the JBL active speakers I'm planning for only have one analog input).

 

Anyway, I appreciate that the CP5 has the same action and the same AP sound quality as the CP1. That's not a bad thing for ca. half of the price. So maybe I shouldn't complain. I guess I'll get a CP5 and an FS1r.

 

Thanks for your detailed and very helpful replies - much appreciated!

 

P.S: One more question: Will the LG-800 stand also work for the CP5? From the one (and only) picture I've seen the LG-800 looks very good!

[Dana.]

So neither the CP1 nor the CP5 do all that I want. Which means that I have to get one of these and add an ugly external MIDI module on top of that, which is not good for usability, doesn't look good in my living room and makes connections quite difficult (the JBL active speakers I'm planning for only have one analog input).

The world's smallest violin is playing just for you. Athan, can that sound be found in the CP5 or CP50?

[Dave Bryce]

The world's smallest violin is playing just for you.

I can totally see keeping a CP1 in the living room as a furniture piece - it is a pretty great looking axe - and I can also easily see wanting strings without having to connect up an external module, especially in home context. I love layering piano and strings, and if I had to choose the one thing that I thought the CP1 was missing, that'd be it.

 

dB

[keyguy]

Looks like Sweetwater has the CP1. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CP1/

[Bobadohshe]

This is the weirdest thread I have ever seen on this forum.

 

When did the 2010 Keyboard Corner forum draft of newbies happen?

 

What is everyone complaining about?

 

How about you play it before you moan about how horrible it is and what it can't do?

 

"I love a girl with big @#&^s, but I want her to be short, and thin, but I love blondes, but she needs to be asian, except Italian/russian mixes are really good, and she needs to speak Spanish, be athletic, but sweet and driven and yet want to be a great mom, and also love music, be someone that other guys want but she's not too flirty. Also great sense of humor."

 

It's not that it doesn't exist, it's that it can't exist!, the all in one for everybody.

[Dave Bryce]

It's not that it doesn't exist, it's that it can't exist!, the all in one for everybody.

...and perfection should never be the enemy of excellence.

 

dB

[Dana.]

The world's smallest violin is playing just for you.

I can totally see keeping a CP1 in the living room as a furniture piece - it is a pretty great looking axe - and I can also easily see wanting strings without having to connect up an external module, especially in home context. I love layering piano and strings, and if I had to choose the one thing that I thought the CP1 was missing, that'd be it.

 

dB

But this is why the CP5 and CP50 exist. My point is that you can't always get all you want.

[Dave Bryce]

My point is that you can't always get all you want.

Agreed...but I'm not sure I see anything wrong with posting a bit of feedback as long as it's done civilly and supported with reasons, which Madshi did do.

 

dB