Santana - overrated

[Gabriel E.]

I also think Carlos' playing used to be better. One of my all-time favorite pieces of guitar music is his "Europa - Earth's Cry, Heaven's Smile". Really amazing.

 

His performance of "Blues for Salvador" on Top of the Pops made me quit playing bass and concentrate solely on the guitar.

 

Now he's a parody. He puts out these mediocre pop "duets" albums that he wins mondo Grammy awards for and everyone buys like hotcakes. His playing on all the songs is exactly the same. Same phrasing, same licks, same vocal/guitar trade-off. Most of the songs pretty much sound the same too - same production, same structure. Very formulaic. Lots of autotune too.

 

His choice of musical partners is also highly questionable. Chad Kroeger always sounds like he's taking a massive dump when he sings. Steven Tyler blew out his voice decades ago. Wyclef Jean is about as musical as a paperclip. The only thing they have in common, aside from a lack of talent, is that they sell lots of records.

 

At this point, I get the feeling that Mr. Santana is a performing monkey and Clive Davis is the Organ Grinder.

 

My $0.02.

[Gifthorse]

I really don't care for his playing at all. To me he has no emotion. LOL!! That is going to piss alot of people off but I seriously think his tone is terrible and his note sensibility bores me, as does the music. I did love the 'open invitation' solo. He doesn't play like that most of the time..

 

But it is all personal preference. I tried for years to understand what the hype was about. There are so many players who smoke him who don't get even a quarter of the recognition. Guys like Doyle Bramhall, or Albert Lee..

 

I am sure he is a nice guy and he is rich as hell. Lots of others love his playing, to each his own. I am not right or wrong, just an opinion.

 

Also guys, just to let you know Yze can play like a mofo.. He is a very schooled technical player that can go sick over bebop changes or anything. He has strong opinions but that is because he can play very well. Yze, you need to get in the studio dude.

[MILLO]

Without watching this video, I think Carlos Santana is highly overrated as a guitarist and musician. I've always thought that way. That doesn't mean I don't like some of his stuff.

 

What he is is a guy who found his niche, in the early stages of distorted-guitar rock. It seems like he took what was mainly Afro-Latin music (not Mexican music), "squared" it up, and blended it w/ his rock/soul licks and aesthetics not necessarily because he wanted to blend these sensibilities, but mainly because of lack of musicianship (he's a "box" player, and when he goes diatonic, it's mainly that step-wise-motion boring triplet pull-off thing). That's my take and I'm sticking to it.

 

The video does show major clams on his part, and his solo is really nothing amazing. I think it is good evidence of his shortcomings as a musician, but one shouldn't judge only by that video. However, I think musicalhair's points may hold some validity in this case.

 

That doesn't mean I don't enjoy listening to "Incident At Neshabur", "Jingo" and his version of "Black Magic Woman" and "Oye cómo va", as well as other tracks. He relies on others to make music happen, but he's the one putting the projects together, maybe acting as sort of musical director and bandleader (one would assume he's the bandleader, period, but who knows really who call the shots), sort of what a producer would do. That's always the way I've thought of him. Then there's that sustain (his tone throughout the years is not really that good to my ears).

 

However, Herbie Hancock recently released an album. I heard one of its tracks w/ Santana on the radio, and while listening to it (before the DJ said what it was) I was thinking, "wow, this guy plays like Santana but his tone is amazing". Well, it was him, most likely playing through a Dumble, because honestly it has that quality most people relate to Dumbles. Amazing. His playing was actually better than it usually is, but still very limited.

 

He's not terrible, just very limited and highly overrated. The hype makes him look worse. However, again, he does have his aesthetic and his vision, and CAN have a very good melodic sense when playing single-note passages, and that 'personality' has helped him become popular--and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, on the contrary, I think that's great. His tone has had a fairly dark and creamy quality throughout the years that also is part of his trademark.

 

Yes, I think nowadays he's nothing more than a musical slut, just playing for the millions. But then again, maybe he's doing something good w/ the millions like helping people out, but I don't think so.

 

Let's just hope that good players everywhere can find their niche like Santana did.

[Fumblyfingers]

I hope this does not come off as inflammatory....but Carlos Santana has been in the game for many years, has recorded many albums, has made a ton of dough, is a cultural icon in the sense that he was one of the first Latino musicians to cross over etc etc etc

 

Nobody I am aware of here has come even close to what he has achieved. So what if he is not doing as great as he did or his recent albums are not up to his old par. He is getting older, give the guy a break. In fact let's go pick on some current young signed players who don't have a fricken concept of music or guitar playing and leave the old cats out of it.

 

What is it exactly that we expect from our elder statesmen?

[miroslav]

Yeah...you can say that Carlos hasn't broken any new ground for many years...and that he's just living off his past glory...

...but there's a lot of other guitar players doing the same thing.

 

Heck...this might rub some folks the wrong way...but you take someone like B.B. King...and I generally yawn when I hear him play these days.

If Carlos is a performing monkey...B.B. is in the same cage with him.

 

But...the thing you can NEVER take away from Carlos and B.B. and some others...is that most people (not just guitar players) can hear just a few notes from them

and they instantly KNOW who it is playing!

Because they have VERY identifiable signature sounds...that have been enjoyed by many for years.

 

So...what's better...to always be churning out something new...just for the sake of doing something new...???

...or finding your groove, and then staying true to it regardless of what the current trends are?

 

I still think Carlos' sustain tone has never been beaten by anyone.

His guitar just sings endlessly and it's very clean and warm...and not gritty/crunchy like you get with most sustained tones.

His playing is very melodic...and devoid of any flash and meaningless shredding...but IMO...that is what a great lead is all about.

 

YMMV...

[Justus A. Picker]

Originally posted by Fumblyfingers:

I hope this does not come off as inflammatory....but Carlos Santana has been in the game for many years, has recorded many albums, has made a ton of dough, is a cultural icon in the sense that he was one of the first Latino musicians to cross over etc etc etc

 

Nobody I am aware of here has come even close to what he has achieved. So what if he is not doing as great as he did or his recent albums are not up to his old par. He is getting older, give the guy a break. In fact let's go pick on some current young signed players who don't have a fricken concept of music or guitar playing and leave the old cats out of it.

 

What is it exactly that we expect from our elder statesmen?

True. Les can't play as well as he did 50 years ago either, but I'll gladly pay good money to hear him.

[Big Red 67]

Well as far as playing well with others. YZ you got posts deleted for personal nipping. Before you get mad at me too...I have had my battles with memebers. Someone told me to "tone" it down. Maybe you have the wrong tone for the crowd that you are playing with. I am glad I decided to take the advice because I have some really, really good friends in this forum. It has helped me in my personal relationships as well. Just wanted to share my experience in this forum.

 

Santana is overrated, until you see him play when he is having a real "on" night.

[Fumblyfingers]

Originally posted by miroslav:

His guitar just sings endlessly and it's very clean and warm...and not gritty/crunchy like you get with most sustained tones.

I often feel the warmth of imagined sunshine when I hear certain Carlos solo's. I am not really a Santana fan but I always enjoy hearing him play. Abraxas was an amazing album.

[Tone Taster]

Okay, OVERALL, carlos has contributed much to music in that he has combined the Latin and rock influence

 

His comeback album, the best tunes are the latin-jazz rock tunes

 

Even the pop tunes are good in that at least the young guns are getting to appreciate guitar solos

 

It's a shame that the music industry has to invest in recycled talent, but they take gambles and go w/the winning hand

[MILLO]

Originally posted by Fumblyfingers:

Abraxas was an amazing album.

I believe Abraxas is one of those stand-out albums in the history of rock.

[MILLO]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Okay, OVERALL, carlos has contributed much to music in that he has combined the Latin and rock influence

He wasn't the first one combining those styles and won't be the last. Some people were doing that in clubs in the Caribbean, Florida and NYC before he did. He actually can't seem to be able to play "true" to the Afro-Latin styles he mixed into his music. I can't imagine the guy playing this stuff along a pro Cuban Tres player, or even a Puertorrican cuatro player from the mountains back home. His ass would be kicked soooo hard in like two measures into the other guy's solo. I think it is b/c of this stuff homogenically described in the US pop music world as "Latin" that makes some people think he can play "latin-jazz". Because of his "Latin" background (that culturally has little to do w/ this particular "latin" music that has made him famous, except for the fact that mambo was popular among Mexican-American youths when he was growing up) he was able to do this fusion, mainly by making OTHERS play fairly within these various styles (sometimes a bit too "squared up" for my tastes) and playing pentatonic boxes over them, and of course, adding that major 6th for the Dorian sound over the TRADITIONAL ii-V progression found on mambos. But he HAD to square it up for his audience, otherwise you know he wouldn't have gone too far... THAT doesn't take away from the weight of his contribution as yZe has mentioned it, on the contrary, it adds to it.

 

Still, his stuff works, b/c it tends to sound like HIS stuff, HIS sound, etc. Like I said before, he managed to create this personality sonically, and of course, a stage personality with his "deeply spiritual, open-thinking shaman" image. As we all know, he found success. Good for him. I guess this is what many of us (not all, of course) strive for.

 

Again, I respect the guy b/c he found his identity and was succesful at it. And of course, he's got that album--Abraxas (which is a great album for its music, not his playing)--to his credit, as well as tunes from other albums w/ memorable melodies, etc. And then, there's that tone of his.

 

Still, I don't like his playing or musicianship that much, to be honest. And I still think he's over-rated as a player.

[Phillydor]

Originally posted by MILLO:

 

Yes, I think nowadays he's nothing more than a musical slut, just playing for the millions. But then again, maybe he's doing something good w/ the millions like helping people out, but I don't think so.

 

Actually he does put some of that dough to a good cause, he and his wife set up a charity called the Milagro Foundation. Also let's not forget that the video that has caused so much outrage is from a fundraiser for Amnesty International.

He's unique in that he's been very successful commercially for close to 40 years largely due to his guitar playing. By that I mean he was never just 'the guitar player'in a band, he was always the leader- I can't think of anyone else, including Gilmore, who can make that claim. (Clapton doesn't count, because his success rests as much on his pop songs as it does from being a great blues player.)

Carlos isn't the first to have lost some of the creative spark due to commercial success, and won't be the last. To me he's a little like Marlon Brando or Orson Welles (but to his credit he's a fit looking guy). By that I mean that he's a genius who we all expect to live up to his early promise, we all long for one more great Santana album.

 

The Milagro Foundation

[Guitarzan]

no way is he over rated, he always brought me what i wanted for Christmas.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Carlos always sounds right in HIS context. In a latin setting he does a great job. I have heard him in a blues situation and just can't stand his take on the blues. I hear him is a jazz context and he acts like I would, find a groove and just try to bet through the dam thing! Carlos is a cool old rock dog and I love his playing when he's in his comfort zone. Yeah it's easy to cop his licks, probably most of us have had them for years but hay WE didn't write the stuff! he did and he's got the lean green to prove it!

[Billster]

I'm in the camp that admires what Santana does, but find it somewhat one dimensional. I mean, Carlos does Carlos whether he's with Miles, the album he did with John McLaughlin, at Woodstock, his new stuff, the late 70's era, he does "Carlos Santana".

 

Plus side: It's instantly recognizable - "hey, Carlos!"

 

When I first heard that song "Smooth" from Supernatural, I was like, "wooohoo! he's back!"

 

Down side: Upon closer inspection, it starts sounding all the same.

 

I mean, listening to the late 70's stuff, or Abraxas and Caravanserai, and then Supernatural, the only thing that has changed is the stuf going around the Carlos licks.

 

Supernatural is a great album. Unfortunately, Shaman (the next one he did), while it's good (and stands out especially next to what you hear on most current hits radio), is like a B-list version of Supernatural. I hear that the next album is planned to be a Santana band album, with no guest singers.

[musicalhair]

I can listen to Caravanserai and Welcome endlessly. When I guess it is Greg Rolie starts singing "every body needs a helping hand" and then the solo kicks in oh man, it is like ... just wonderful. I can't even say what those records mean to me.

 

I'm not going to even get into "Yours is the Light"

[Griffinator]

I lost interest in Carlos right about the same time I grew out of the Doors and all that psychedelic stuff. I respect him about the same way I respect Aerosmith and the Stones. Long, large bodies of work, occasional strokes of genius, but the last 15 years for all three have been an endless repeat, which really dims their mystique.

 

Too many other musicians have been in the game just as long and still find new and interesting things to do. Hell, if FZ wasn't taken from us so soon, I'd wager good money he'd be getting ready to release an album specifically to bag on Carlos for this whole SuperShaman stupidity.

[Guitarzan]

i like Carlos and some of that is partly due to the fact he seems like he is a nice guy.

he is him.

i would like to hang out with him.

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by Griffinator:

Hell, if FZ wasn't taken from us so soon, I'd wager good money he'd be getting ready to release an album specifically to bag on Carlos for this whole SuperShaman stupidity.

Remember his tune off of "Shut Up and Play yer Guitar"?

 

"The Secret Carlos Santana Chord Progression" ? LOL

[Ricardo.]

I've heard that one yZe! Only I think it was 'Secret Santana Scale.' Hah!

[Phillydor]

Blasphemy! Do not mock the Secret Carlos Santana Chord Progression!

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by Ricardo_F:

I've heard that one yZe! Only I think it was 'Secret Santana Scale.' Hah!

we're both wrong, it's

Variations On The Secret Carlos Santana Chord Progressions

[MILLO]

Originally posted by Philemec:

Originally posted by MILLO:

 

Yes, I think nowadays he's nothing more than a musical slut, just playing for the millions. But then again, maybe he's doing something good w/ the millions like helping people out, but I don't think so.

 

Actually he does put some of that dough to a good cause, he and his wife set up a charity called the Milagro Foundation. Also let's not forget that the video that has caused so much outrage is from a fundraiser for Amnesty International.

He's unique in that he's been very successful commercially for close to 40 years largely due to his guitar playing. By that I mean he was never just 'the guitar player'in a band, he was always the leader- I can't think of anyone else, including Gilmore, who can make that claim. (Clapton doesn't count, because his success rests as much on his pop songs as it does from being a great blues player.)

Carlos isn't the first to have lost some of the creative spark due to commercial success, and won't be the last. To me he's a little like Marlon Brando or Orson Welles (but to his credit he's a fit looking guy). By that I mean that he's a genius who we all expect to live up to his early promise, we all long for one more great Santana album.

 

The Milagro Foundation

Thanks for the info, that actually makes me feel better.

[MILLO]

Originally posted by guitarzan:

no way is he over rated, he always brought me what i wanted for Christmas.

Santa? Naaaaah....

[Big Red 67]

A good flame down in flames!

[Phillydor]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Carlos always sounds right in HIS context. In a latin setting he does a great job. I have heard him in a blues situation and just can't stand his take on the blues.

Well I for one think it's tragic that the whole Riverdance phenomenon flew past and he didn't grab hold and take advantage of it.

Oh and I can't let that one slip by ...his band started out as a blues band.

[Big Red 67]

Originally posted by Philemec:

Originally posted by ellwood:

Carlos always sounds right in HIS context. In a latin setting he does a great job. I have heard him in a blues situation and just can't stand his take on the blues.

Well I for one think it's tragic that the whole Riverdance phenomenon flew past and he didn't grab hold and take advantage of it.

Now that's more like it!@

[picker]

You gotta give Carlos his props for being the first guy to fuse latino music and rock. That first album was a revelation into what rock music could become. He doesn't just play blues progressions and slap congas on top of it, it all really works together, and I'll never forget the impact it had on me the first time I heard it. I have always loved his playing, with the possible exception of that dippy jam album with John McLaughlin, and that other weird album he did with Alice Tureya Coltrane. And, I don't think he is any more stuck in a rut musically than Eric Clapton or any other of the other guys still around from back in the day. I believe he really plays from his heart, and that is plenty more than a lot of folks do.

[Tone Taster]

I do give Santana Props and he deserves them - He just just gets more than what is really due, thus the overrated premise

[fantasticsound]

I have to agree with those who feel he's over-rated. That's not to say he's a bad player or that he is just another player. He certainly has his own, recognizable voice just as EVH and SRV and Jimi do (did).

 

That being said, he bores the heck out of me. I've never liked his tone all that much and I can count on one hand the songs he's played that I like more than a little.

 

If I may, yZe, I'd suggest your dismay at his success has more to do with people treating him like some living legend, a live Jimi for example, when you (and I) feel he's just another decent player.

 

Oddly enough, I'd much rather listen to the guy he mentored, Neil Schon, than Carlos.