Santana - overrated

[The Big G]

A real good player but leaves me cold, especially down the jazz road and no there isnt anything wrong with jazzers bar the obvious j/k please dont let the jazzers get me !!!!!!

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by Gruupi:

His music is about expression rather than academics.

I don't think it is academics to be considerate to other musicians when it is not your gig or to be aware of what is happening musically.

I understand your big picture premise, as I did take that into consideration that he is used to fronting his own band and that he endorses marijuana use (i used to smoke up, so that was an objective observation, not a dig for you sensitive types)

In other words, stage hogging, and ignoring what is going on around you MUSICALLY is more a serious lack of common courtesy and more of a lack of overall musicianship

 

There are dudes who can't write their own name who know how to trade fours and not step all over people's toes in jam sessions

 

I will restate that this video is good education for HOW NOT TO interact with other musicians

[bc_dup1]

Santana was a huge influence for me in my early days of playing guitar, although I admit it's many many years since I was very interested in hearing him. I could say the same about most blues/rock players though; at some point I realised I wasn't much interested in hearing or playing more of that kind of stuff. Just my personal taste: I am not knocking blues-rock. I put many hours learning to play in that style.

 

Carlos was my first big influence when I started to want to move on from the Peter Green/Clapton John Mayall's Bluesbreakers kind of stuff that got me started on guitar. "Abraxas" was the first album I more or less learned how to play note for note, although it was the lusher sound of the two albums after that that I really fell in love with. For a couple of years I had my Les Paul and my Watkins Copycat and my Marshalls and all I wanted out of life was to play guitar like Carlos Santana. I stayed a devoted fan through a series of increasingly adventurous albums up to "Welcome", an artistic success but commercial failure. He started to lose me with "Borboletta" (although "Promise of a Fisherman" was beautiful) after which he seemed to realise that the public was not going to follow him down an ever more adventurous route. He started to play safe and repeat himself, I got into jazz and punk, he seemed passe, and I stopped buying his albums.

 

The "can he play jazz" debate seems like an irrelevance to me. He was a big influence in getting me into jazz-rock (a short-term passion), and Coltrane (which lasted longer), but he was never a jazz player. I thought he was out of his depth on the album he did with McLaughlin, his parts were not only purely modal stuff but pre-composed modal solos, some of it a repeat of material he'd recorded earlier. It hardly qualified as jazz rock, and was certainly not jazz. But that didn't make his earlier work any less valuable.

 

I'm a pretty mediocre hobby player, but I've spend a bit of time studying chord-scale relationships and I can hack out a more or less adequate solo over Rhythm Changes or the average jazz standard. If I had put in the time I'm sure I could have gotten reasonably good at it. That wouldn't have made me a better musician than Carlos Santana.

 

At a higher level, there are thousands of fine players who can solo fluently and musically over changes, but, inevitably, most of them lack that extra degree of individuality that makes a musician one of the tiny elite of influential players. Santana didn't: he may have been a limited musician, but within those limitations he did something unique,personal and highly influential. Even his takes on Coltrane on "Welcome", naive though they may be, have something intense and beautiful about them, whereas many of the technically superb Coltrane imitators and interpreters I've seen and heard at jazz gigs over the years have blurred into an unindividuated mass.

 

To me he is like Hank Marvin, not an improvisor or great technical player but creator of an indvidual style and of beautiful, effective and idiosyncratic pop-rock instrumentals. That may not seem difficult to do, but then you realise how seldom it has been done. His approach was always compositional rather than improvisational - live he would repeat long passages note for note from the record. Judging him by his ability to solo over changes just misses the point. You should not condemn an artist for failing to do something he never set out to do.

 

In this context I think of a very different musician, Frank Zappa. Some of Zappa's compositions were sufficiently complex that few people doubt his credentials as a serious musician, but despite his massive output of guitar orientated material he never seemed very interested in soloing over changes. Oddly he

rarely seems to get censured for this by the kinds of people who like to judge musicians by their improvisational sophistication. Maybe with Zappa it's harder to cling to the illusion that if he doesn't do it it must be because he can't, rather than because it's something that just doesn't interest him very much.

[Dr. Ellwood]

"You should not condemn an artist for failing to do something he never set out to do."

 

And there it is! in a compressed form, that says it all, and not only Santana, in all aspects of music.

[Guitar55]

Nicely put, BC!

[Shoes]

I've likely run the spectrum of thought on whether he can or can't play and it's obvious that he just plays Carlos.

It's a somewhat limited experience and that is what it is and he's got an exceptional grasp of it.

 

There are just so many gutarist who have a broader spectrum of thought and creativity that you start to wonder over the years if there should have been something else.

 

Eric & Jimi provide quite a contrast while you can potentially see Eddie as anchored by a genre or preferencial sound much like Carlos.

 

... all highly debatable. As may well be my reply.

[miroslav]

Here's another perspective...

 

Carlo's has played and still plays with a lot of other musicians...a lot of really good musicians.

 

So...how is it possible for someone who carries himself as a guitar player...as a lead guitar player...to be able hide this lack of "real" playing ability for so many years...???

 

Yeah...I'm sure a lot of the folks that play with him will show respect, because of his longevity...

but he wouldn't have the longevity in the first place, if he was just a mediocre, overrated player.

[Guitar55]

Carlos has a signature tone and does what he does very well. He has led a tight, successful band for many years and has had commercial and critical success as well as the respect of his peers.

 

Is he the most versatile player on the planet? No.

 

One possible explanation for his seemingly self-centered approach to playing with other musicans could be that he has a different idea of how to interact during a jam. Rather than letting everyone take turns, I suspect that he may be more inclined to having people play at the same time and seeing how things develop that way. Just a thought.

[Ricardo.]

Carlos Santana is to me, a variation on a Blues player. I don't think he should be considered 'more,' or 'less.'

[Big Red 67]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Originally posted by Gruupi:

His music is about expression rather than academics.

I don't think it is academics to be considerate to other musicians when it is not your gig or to be aware of what is happening musically.

I understand your big picture premise, as I did take that into consideration that he is used to fronting his own band and that he endorses marijuana use (i used to smoke up, so that was an objective observation, not a dig for you sensitive types)

In other words, stage hogging, and ignoring what is going on around you MUSICALLY is more a serious lack of common courtesy and more of a lack of overall musicianship

 

There are dudes who can't write their own name who know how to trade fours and not step all over people's toes in jam sessions

 

I will restate that this video is good education for HOW NOT TO interact with other musicians

I got what you are getting at a long time ago. So for entertainment.

 

yZe: Dude your not listening to me.

 

Dude: Yes I am. You said, that I ain't listening to you.

 

yZe: But your not hearing me!

 

Dude: Huh? oh ya, you said I ain't listening.

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by Big Red 67:

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Originally posted by Gruupi:

His music is about expression rather than academics.

I don't think it is academics to be considerate to other musicians when it is not your gig or to be aware of what is happening musically.

I understand your big picture premise, as I did take that into consideration that he is used to fronting his own band and that he endorses marijuana use (i used to smoke up, so that was an objective observation, not a dig for you sensitive types)

In other words, stage hogging, and ignoring what is going on around you MUSICALLY is more a serious lack of common courtesy and more of a lack of overall musicianship

 

There are dudes who can't write their own name who know how to trade fours and not step all over people's toes in jam sessions

 

I will restate that this video is good education for HOW NOT TO interact with other musicians

I got what you are getting at a long time ago. So for entertainment.

 

yZe: Dude your not listening to me.

 

Dude: Yes I am. You said, that I ain't listening to you.

 

yZe: But your not hearing me!

 

Dude: Huh? oh ya, you said I ain't listening.

I guess you've been looking for an excuse to use that one. Looks like you got your chance

 

BobBerg: Dude I'm Soling

 

Carlos: weeedly weedly weedly

 

Bob BErg: Bro, STFU, I'm soloing - it's on the 4th measure already

 

Carlos: Huh ? I thought it's the Carlos Santana Show

[mdrs]

Are we still talking about this???

 

yZe....no disrespect intended. You have an absolute right to your opinion.

 

Here's mine;

 

Santana is a bona fide rock guitar ICON.

 

If the man truely didn't know how to play music (live or studio) with other quality musicians, he'd have withered on the vine decades ago.

[A String]

Originally posted by mdrs:

Are we still talking about this???

 

yZe....no disrespect intended. You have an absolute right to your opinion.

 

Here's mine;

 

Santana is a bona fide rock guitar ICON.

 

If the man truely didn't know how to play music (live or studio) with other quality musicians, he'd have withered on the vine decades ago.

[Gifthorse]

Hey did anyone check out this link

 

 

pretty cool Carlos solo. I am not a big fan, but I am open enough to check out his stuff. I like some of it. His tone is actually pretty neat on this one. Usually I don't care for it. All personal pref.

 

The guy who brought up how he plays with all these well known musicians. They will play with him because he is famous and rich!! Maybe some of them love his playing too. But let it be clear, being famous and rich is a big part of his star attraction to these other artists!! Marketing and image makes people famous. This is the business end of things that many of us musicians have little knowledge or control of. Just look at Tommy Lee. You think he is a 'great' drummer/musician? Maybe he is, but from what I have heard he is pretty average in the big picture.

 

He isn't Alex Van Halen, or that guy who played on Jeff Buckley's Dream Brother.

 

I like a few of Carlos' solos. He can play what he plays. He is what he is I guess.

 

He aint no Albert Lee, or Lindsey Buckingham!!

 

I know that is a dumb thing to say, he is Carlos!! But I am just making a point that I garantee Albert Lee commands alot more respect than Carlos in most circles of pros. He is undeniably a COMPLETE MONSTER!!!!!

[Big Red 67]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

Originally posted by Big Red 67:

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gruupi:

His music is about expression rather than academics.

I don't think it is academics to be considerate to other musicians when it is not your gig or to be aware of what is happening musically.

I understand your big picture premise, as I did take that into consideration that he is used to fronting his own band and that he endorses marijuana use (i used to smoke up, so that was an objective observation, not a dig for you sensitive types)

In other words, stage hogging, and ignoring what is going on around you MUSICALLY is more a serious lack of common courtesy and more of a lack of overall musicianship

 

There are dudes who can't write their own name who know how to trade fours and not step all over people's toes in jam sessions

 

I will restate that this video is good education for HOW NOT TO interact with other musicians

I got what you are getting at a long time ago. So for entertainment.

 

yZe: Dude your not listening to me.

 

Dude: Yes I am. You said, that I ain't listening to you.

 

yZe: But your not hearing me!

 

Dude: Huh? oh ya, you said I ain't listening.

I guess you've been looking for an excuse to use that one. Looks like you got your chance

 

BobBerg: Dude I'm Soling

 

Carlos: weeedly weedly weedly

 

Bob BErg: Bro, STFU, I'm soloing - it's on the 4th measure already

 

Carlos: Huh ? I thought it's the Carlos Santana Show

---

Nope. I posted that because I thought that it would show you that I get what you where going through.

 

Your post is funny!

[Gifthorse]

God this dialogue stuff rocks.

 

I may have to chime in with a dialogue with my own characters.

[Big Red 67]

Oh no! We released the voices. Now we're all in trouble!

[Ricardo.]

Originally posted by flagshipmile:

I like a few of Carlos' solos. He can play what he plays. He is what he is I guess.

 

He aint no Albert Lee, or Lindsey Buckingham!!

 

I know that is a dumb thing to say, he is Carlos!! But I am just making a point that I garantee Albert Lee commands alot more respect than Carlos in most circles of pros. He is undeniably a COMPLETE MONSTER!!!!!

Right, like say, Hubert Sumlin, or Eric Clapton (Stevie Ray Vaughn? I don't want to start another argument!). I think we hold him to too high standards...

[Gruupi]

Ok, well I finally watched the video ( a very poor video at that one), and I agree that Santana doesn't exactly shine here. So which one of us could sit in with Miles and do any better. I know I couldn't unless I really practiced and new the tune and when I was supposed to be playing. I didn't realize that the sazaphone was taking a solo either, I thought he was riffing for a bit till he kind of stepped it up. It seems to me that Carlos was trying to jam with Robben, not just trade licks. You could just as easy say that Robben was tentative and didn't follow along. I like Robben Ford as well so lets not make this a contest. Whatever, it was just an unrehearsed jam. I bet most of the people on stage were Miles's band or had played regularly with him before so they probably knew the structure.

 

I can understand that if you don't like Santana, you have that right. I just think its petty to dis the guy that had the balls to get up and jam with Miles Davis for a good cause. Carlos seems like a free spirit that will try and jam with anyone, he has his own style but at least he is not afraid to take it into different situations. I bet all the people onstage were happy just to play together, I would be surprised if Robben Ford or the saxaphone player would talk bad about the performance. Sure, Santana was out of his element here, I'm just surprised why someone would go on and on and even get into an fight just to point out how bad he played.

 

If you don't like a musician thats fine, but why try and pull out bad performances and bring him down. If someone taped my worst moments on stage and then went on to tell everyone how bad I played I would feel pretty bad about it. Santana is human just like all of us. I respect and even like him as a musician. I try to talk positive about all sincere musicians. I slip sometimes when I think someone is in it for reasons other than music, I wished I could always just look for the good that musicians have to offer.

[Bejeeber]

Originally posted by Gruupi:

why try and pull out bad performances and bring him down. If someone taped my worst moments on stage and then went on to tell everyone how bad I played I would feel pretty bad about it.

Not a huge Santana fan and haven't been feeling defensive about the criticisms of him here, but you make a point that's hard to argue with there Gruupi.

[Dr. Ellwood]

I have always had to play Santana's material because I play only covers and his material was always on our set lists. I can't say it is my most favorite material to cover but it has always been popular with club and event audiences. It is not especially challenging to copy his licks and his tone is pretty easily copied. I think the challenge is if anyting his total overall bands sound and we always enjoyed working one getting that sound. Drummers and bass players seem to really like to cover his material. I'm am not sure why his popularity has held up for so many years, but like has been said here, he does have his own sound and when he broke on the scene I remember finding it very fresh and interesting because we had not done Latin style music much before he broke out. To this day we get at least five or six requests per night to do his material.

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by Gruupi:

but why try and pull out bad performances and bring him down. I

See, that;s the thing - the "can of worms" opening post I posted yesterday shows that this was not some isolated. random, "once in a blue moon" inident.

 

He seems to be a stage hog with no regard for wanting to interact interdependently with other musicians.

 

So we can all use this as an example of how not to do things and to be more sensitive in musical situations. Pretty good study

[Tone Taster]

P.S., One of my favorite tunes to jam on is "evil ways"

[Big Red 67]

So many easy jams. I really like playing the bass parts. So much room to move it around! I dig songs like that. If you think about it, it speaks to the subject. Simple songs,... simple guy. I think he don't know,... or ... is just stoned.

 

We do a jam like that in the band I am in. Got a cool groove you can really play with the feel. I love wood and strings !

[Gruupi]

I do get your point yZecounsel, but why single out Santana. There are tons of "guitar heroes" who hog the stage and don't play well with others. Thats part of the whole rock star syndrome. Even some of my favorite players are guilty of this, I don't think its a lack of musicianship, just maybe a lack of protocol? I can't think of many straight rock musicians that could have even attempted to sit in with Miles Davis. I guess you just have to look at the motives behind the show.

 

I see Santana on a lot of these benifit extravaganza shows. Rememeber, the purpose of these shows is to raise money for a worthy cause. Having lots of big name stars sells lots of tickets or encourages lots of people to call in with pledges. Very rarely do these allstar jams create meaningfull music other than historical significance. I think it is taking it out of context to throw a bunch of unrehearsed musicians together and then criticize the outcome. Sometimes it works but most of the time it doesn't.

 

Jazz musicians grow up in an environment where thay improvise and listen to each other intently. Most pop and rock musicians are different, they tend to work things out to back the star. Santana has been a front man since he was a teenager. He is used to his band following his lead. Should he expand his horizons and learn how to follow a band in a jazz setting? Sure, if he is going to be in that situation alot he should learn how to fit in. I think he could maybe stand some constructive critisism, but from his perspective he was getting to play with Miles and also helped raise money for Amnesty International. I am sure that there were as many of Carlos's fans wanting to see him play as there were of Miles's, and they would have been disappointed if he had laid back. The end result wasn't all that good, but I just don't see getting all worked up about it.

[Big Red 67]

Well that is why we are here! We are excited and that is why we do this!

[Big Red 67]

Originally posted by Big Red 67:

Oh no! We released the voices. Now we're all in trouble!

Where are the voices, I need the voices!

[Griffinator]

Originally posted by yZeCounsel:

He seems to be a stage hog with no regard for wanting to interact interdependently with other musicians.

Let's see... Stage hogs with no regard for interacting with other musicians?

 

EVH comes immediately to mind. Give me an hour or two and I could probably tick off a couple dozen other guitar gods that don't play nice with others...

[Trucks]

AH HA Griff! Not seen you about in a while, do you fancy putting up some metal on the Jam thread?

[Tone Taster]

Well, since I teach people from 12 years old on up, some alarms go off when I see footage like that:

 

1. Santana is one of the most talked about thus making him a role model for the young guns

 

2. They see this icon playing on that video and identify him as "awesome"

 

3. They don't know the difference between stepping all over somebody's toes or playing appropriately

 

The conclusion that would most likely be reached by the kid is that Santana is awesome (even though this the way how NOT to play)

 

So this type of footage has the potential to incubate more stage hog toe steppers